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Ski length and type what is the difference?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi Folks

So in my other posts folks have mentioned ski length and these 'carving skis' that I have been using this year. In simple terms could you please explain these differences for me. For instance, why is shorter easier for me as a tentative beginer?, what benefit do these carvers have over the staight skis?, if shorter skis are easier why do experienced skiers favour longer skis - do they go faster? I seem to have entered a world of new terms and acronyms and thought I might as well learn something about it.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, as a very rough guide, shorter skies are easier to turn but longer skis are more stable when you ski fast. A shaped ski makes it much easier to carve a turn compared to a straight ski; just about any mainstream ski that is available to buy or to rent will be shaped to some extent.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
and as Olympic slalom skiers use skis of 155/165 you can be sure that you don't need long skis to go fast... Many experienced skiers don't favour long skis, it depends what they are doing.
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pam w wrote:
and as Olympic slalom skiers use skis of 155/165 you can be sure that you don't need long skis to go fast... Many experienced skiers don't favour long skis, it depends what they are doing.

...but not many recreational skis in the 155/165 range are as stiff as factory slalom skis Wink
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ahhhh.....so stiffness plays a part too....
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Megamum wrote:
Ahhhh.....so stiffness plays a part too....


Softer is generally easier . . . depending on what you are doing.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Megamum, it is said that beginners find shorter skis easier because beginners will tend to use physical input to turn their skis (foot/leg steering, "rotary", whatever you care to call it). A shorter ski length may mean that there is less "swing weight" (imagine swinging a long pole around with your hands) and thus it is easier to turn.

More advanced skiers, whilst still using physical turning when necessary, will exploit the characteristics of the ski which enables it to turn itself, and hence turn them. If the ski is on its edge and the tail is following the line of the tip (ie there is no sideways movement of the ski so that the tail "skids away") the ski is "carving", and will follow an arc in the snow. "Old style" skis were not "straight", they just had less pronounced sidecut and hence were more difficult to persuade into smaller radius carved turns, but they would still carve.

"Carving" skis will not have any appreciable effect on your skiing unless you carve on them (or at the least feel what they will do when put on edge and pressured - snowplough is fine for this). There are plenty of snowbladers (the ultimate carving tool) doing "windscreen wiper" flat ski turns on the slopes rolling eyes Indeed, because many modern carving skis are quite heavy compared with the old style skis I suspect that the "swing weights" may be similar and they may be just as "difficult" to turn as older, longer skis.

Have you tried ice skating? If so, how do you turn on skates?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Hi Yoda

This is both interesting and useful. If I can understand how the skis are meant to turn then it may help me to develop the skill to get them to do it. I must admit that I like the idea of the skis turning themselves rather than me having to turn them - I end up knackered at the end of an hours private lesson.

Yes, I do skate - self taught, no lessons. I can do it well enough to hold up my kids, can do cross over corners and turn to go backwards - In a butterfly action - then turn to go back forwards again. I understand the concept of the edges, but only consciously use them when making a butterfly action when I feel them drag me across the ice.

I started as, I guess, most people do snow ploughing everywhere and around corners - having to put more weight on the inside top ski and it sent me round. I then progressed to parallel across the slope and snow-ploughing around the corners. The instructor encouraged me to plant my ski stick in the snow and then to try and turn tightly around it. The snow plough corners then seemed to sub consciously migrate into parallel turns, but to do them 'to order' each and every time still required a good deal of thought and a huge amount of physical effort to really lean into that top ski and force it round the bend. I'm sure more speed would help, but I don't yet have the confidence to go fast. I'm sure I can see the technique in my minds eye, but my minds eye does not seem to communicate to my feet or to my fear centre!
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Megamum, if you have a bendy plastic ruler at home put it on a flat table, tilt it so that the lower edge is on the table and bend it so that the middle part is further away from you than the ends. Imagine the ruler sliding lengthways on its lower edge in that bent shape. That's how a ski turns itself - you put it on its edge and stand against it so it bends.

Of course with a ruler you will notice that the ends of the lower edge do not contact the table when you bend it. Imagine cutting the sides of the ruler so that it is narrower in the middle than it is at the ends. Then at a certain bend radius, depending on how deep you have made that "sidecut", you will see that the whole length of the lower edge is in contact.

If you don't mind me asking, how long ago were you advised to "put more weight" on one ski or the other, and to "turn tightly" around a pole plant? (and where?). I'm not quite sure what you mean about "leaning into the top ski and forcing it round the bend". Transfer of pressure from the lower ski to the upper ski doesn't usually require huge physical effort Puzzled

As for butterflies - you're way more advanced than I Toofy Grin
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I've been having a think since this reply, and am going to revise what I put. Its the outside ski of the turn that I put the weight on isn't it, not the inside one? Embarassed Anyway, it's the one that you put the weight on that I find hard to work. It seems that you have to make the edge cut into the snow and this seems hard to do, though it was easier once it snowed some and they then got the machines on to flatten it. Skiing on that fresh snow seemed much easier. It's fair to say that I'm reasonably robustly built and fairly strong, but I still found the skiing exhausting after an hour of constant practice. With the tight turn around the pole plant, I assumed that I was intended to make a tight turn as my arms would not have been long enough for anything larger - did I miss the point of what I was supposed to be doing with planting the pole in the snow? It certainly wasn't an easy job to make a small turn and sometimes I had to remove the pole when I went too wide.

I have to say that I'm dead chuffed with the plastic ruler explanation though. That makes a lot of sense and should be required reading for all beginners. I had no idea that I was actually bending the ski's as I moved - that's obviously where the movement of your weight comes into its own. The concept of 'putting the ski on its edge and standing against it so it bends' is a revelation Very Happy
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Megamum wrote:
... it's the one that you put the weight on that I find hard to work. It seems that you have to make the edge cut into the snow and this seems hard to do, though it was easier once it snowed some and they then got the machines on to flatten it. Skiing on that fresh snow seemed much easier. It's fair to say that I'm reasonably robustly built and fairly strong, but I still found the skiing exhausting after an hour of constant practice.


Yes, in most circumstances your outside ski is the one which will carry the majority of your weight. The 'outside ski' is better terminology than 'uphill ski' because sometimes your outside ski will be the uphill ski and sometimes it will be the downhill ski.

Don't worry about the hard work - as your technique becomes more effective the effort required to steer your skis will get less and less.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Megamum, As with Yoda I am rather alarmed about your experiences with pole plant and tight turns - when and where? This is VERY bad teaching if it's within the last 10-15 years.

shorter carving skis are useful for beginners because they require less pressure to turn. A tiny bit of pressure on the turning ski will send you round the corner on a beginner slope. I like my adult beginners on good chaped skis at no more than shoulder height. BTW I never teach beginners to make any turning effort (I differ from BASI in this), why teach someone something they have to unlearn later? It should only be an effort because you might be tense as a beginner, and may find the exercise at altitude tiring, otherwise it should not be any sort of physical effort.

rob@rar, WRT the stiffness of factory racing skis, think of the enormous amount of pressure these guys and gals can exert on a ski... It would be interesting if someone did a biomechanical study to see how much more it was, but if I can't find a pair of ladies skis that don't collapse under me ...... Puzzled Puzzled
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This is an interesting thread and I would appreciate some advice/guidance along a similar vein...

This winter will be my 5th time skiing (still doing lessons) and I now ski on a pair of K2 Apache Recons which I really enjoy. I would consider myself a confident skier and can ski any run on piste and the less demanding off-piste routes. However, this doesn't mean that I can ski these runs with textbook technique because I know that I am far off that at this stage Sad

I will often watch technically proficient skiers as well as buy teaching DVD's, books etc and I think that I understand, in theory, good technique but I, like megamum, also find that my thighs burn and lose strength/endurance after only an hour or so of skiing . My problem is that no matter how much I try and distribute my weight over both ski's when turning, I find that my outside(downhill) ski still takes most of the weight and as a result gets really tired and sore very quickly. This would also mean that I am having to use far more effort when turning as opposed to using the ski's to make the turn.

Any advice?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hornster, your outside ski should carry most of the weight, especially on hard packed pistes (but a more even weight distribution when skiing deep snow). At a guess I'd say that burning thighs is the result of having your weight too far back on your heels. Stick with the lessons and ask your next instructor to concentrate on your stance, particularly for/aft balance.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, your solution makes sense because when I think back to my last seasons skiing it definitely felt better with less energy required when I was leaning just that little more over my boots. This also allowed for more positive edging during turns. I suppose that it is obvious really and basic physics when I think about it i.e. leaning too far back on my heels will result in far less control of the skis and therefore greater effort required.

Cheers mate! Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hornster, you're not alone. Most of us, for at least some of the time, are way too far back in our stance. If you're more centered your skeleton can do a more effective job of supporting your weight and resisting the pressures that build up as you turn, meaning less effort from your thighs. You'll also be better at engaging the front of your skis in the first part of the turn, so ore effective steering. That's the theory - one day I hope to put it into practise... Wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hornster, what Rob said, but also - you do turn both ways so you might be able to use each turn as an opportunity to consciously relax the leg that isn't bearing the majority of your weight on each turn. When you're concentrating - especially if you're on a slope that is a challenge to you - it's all too easy to tense everything up and then you're knackered in no time. Thus speaks the voice of experience!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hornster, wot they said, but especially eng_ch, last week when hitting the ice, I tensed up and in one run my legs were realy painful. Had to learn to relax and enjoy the 'firm conditions'.
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lampbus, Or get floppy!!! Laughing Laughing
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The previous info is making things clearer to me about the 'turning problem'
Went skiing for the second time earlier this year, the rent skis i got seemed very long resulting in me crossing over at every opportunity, resulting in me losing all my previous years confidence and falling quite a lot
After 3rd day took the bull by the horns and changed them for shorter skiis,(cant remember the Length!!). confidence and ability to turn came back but i feel i lost 3 valuble days skiing
Going to Bansko over xmas and want to make sure i get the right skis first time
I am around 12st 10lbs and 5'10'' medium build
I wish to ski correctly not to concerned about speed, can anyone give me any advice of the skiis i should be seeking to get

Many thanks
JM
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jm, how tall were the skis that you had initially - top of your head? Taller? Shorter? I'd go for something which around nose height (165cm maybe)
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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Thats my big mistake ,didnt take notice of the size, what i do remember though even after changing skiis, on the last day the insructor got me to swap with another in our group who was a better skier than me ans the ones he gave me where around shoulder height, now i did feel comferatable with these, but id ont want to totaly halt my progress, or would it ?

many thanks
jm
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jm, shortish skis won't hinder your progress, certainly not until you get more experience and want to ski quickly or in deep snow. Better to learn on skis which are a bit too short than a bit too long Smile
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I'm glad others have found the thread interesting - I was a bit worried initially about posting some basic worries and experiences, but all the snowheads have been very patient with me and the others that have picked up here.

It's the short ski length all us beginners get on well with isn't it? Even without being told that it should be easier on them that's what we all seem to have found - there's got to be something in it!!!

So, we've got to keep the weight over the front of the ski's - that helps with control......I want to be in control - I'm not keen when the ski's take over - I did about 800 ignominious yards with the weight behind the skis years ago in Lenzerdeide - and ended up in the internal workings of the kinderlift Embarassed

We've also got to tip these neat little carving ski's on their edges and stand on them as this helps get them round the corners. Is this still a parallel turn?

They should work in softer and harder conditions - Will softer be easier? It's snowed whilst we were at the resort this year and following the machines the slope had not been skied much when I got to it. The ski's dug in more, but also seemed more prone to a bit of vertical slip as the unpacked snow gave way a bit (not a huge amount) when pressured - this was a bit disconcerting at times. What is the best snow to ski in as a beginner?

And what should I do with these poles - do I plant them in the snow and do a turn around them or not?
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Megamum, I'd say a nicely groomed piste the day after decent snowfall. Nicely bashed down, but not hard and icy.
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Megamum, You're definitely getting the picture. Easiest snow is probably as Helen Beaumont, suggests. don't worry about your poles - they really won't matter for a while yet (moguls, racing and deep snow) so best NOT to plant them until shown how. Pole planting can result in horrible amounts of rotation as a result on peeps dropping their pole arms after planting. this creates all sorts of problems that then need to be sorted out, so best not to plant until a (modern) instructor tells you you're ready. BTW, if s/he tell you to flex before the pole plant get out of that class and ask for another instructor - that's very old hat!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
easiski,

Quote:

BTW, if s/he tell you to flex before the pole plant get out of that class and ask for another instructor - that's very old hat!


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