 Poster: A snowHead
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For those interested in high-level boots, I have just picked up a pair of Nordica Aggressor 150s. I am documenting my boot balancing process in a thread on EpicSki. I will probably not be able to ski them until the 26th or 27th after my next visit with Jeff Bergeron on the 25th. I'll review them once I get to ski them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ssh, I would love to hear your progress, I've worked on this for 3 years with Nordica. Jury is out. Please be objective as you can and want them to work. Your use of footbed and alignment will be of particular intrest to me.
Phew, a post to whet the appitite! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SZK, glad to hear it's of interest to someone! Were you able to view the posts on EpicSki? I could duplicate them here, but that seems wasteful of snowHeads space...
In turn, I would love to hear what your work with Nordica was. As you may have read in the related thread on EpicSki, there are those who are strongly negative about them. I am not. I am cautiously optimistic that they'll really help me.
So, what kind of work did you do? What kind of experiments? What was the biomechanical and/or research basis for the model?
Feel free to discuss this on EpicSki if it's easier or better for all...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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CEM, there is quite a discussion on the "V" stance of the boots over on EpicSki. Some folks walk like that due to tight thigh muscles and other forms of poor fitness. Others do so because of real physiological differences. So, it depends on the very specific characteristics of the person.
Yeah, that case is something else! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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ssh, I worked with Stefano, the project manager for three days. It was more work expierience than direct input. I was there to offer the perspective of the technician and vendor. Since then, most of the work has been tests on the boot. We have been using the Expert Free Skier model to test the stance and lasting with regards development of an AB-Ducted stance across the range.
I initally, was dead against the programme as it causes problems if an orthotic is added after sometime skiing in the boot. It has highlighted for me the importance of orthotics in skiing and their effects on upper body alignment(EASY VEEEEIGHT).
It does, at point of sale however open up the descussion of lower leg alignment and therefore opens up a huge can of worms for people like me.
Sorry buddy, i won't be following this one on Epic, i can't follow the simple topics on Epic. It's less like English, more like Disney! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM, I agree. I'm appauled by some of my colleagues here in the UK who buy their boots for reasons totally other than fit.
I attended one of Andy Taylors Tech courses ages ago, and have been fortunate to work in a workshop servicing and repairing skis, as well as fitting & modifying boots etc.
At the risk of opening up another North Atlantic vs. Europe debate, I can safely say that over 80% of the instructors that I work with in my specific department at Whistler actually are quite clued up about equipment, including boots etc.
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CEM (+SZK) putting the horse back in front of the cart, why not direct customers to instructors you can work with?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, love to they are (certainly in this neck of the woods) limited, but i do have a few i use
i thinkveeeight has it correct instructors in the states tend to be a little more kit orientated
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It depends. Some are, some aren't. And there are a lot of opinions out there. One very talented instructor I know just stuffs his foot into a boot his size and goes skiing... this after some years of grinding, et. al. I am going the other direction, getting very focused on the effect of stance and balance and how it can help or hurt each skier, regardless of their level.
Since some won't follow it on Epic, I'll duplicate my initial post in that thread in this thread...
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This from this thread on EpicSki:
Boot Balance by Bergeron...
...an educational epistle...
In the hope that some of you would be interested in the process of being fit and balanced, I thought that I would share my experience in the steps as they occur. Feel free to jump in and ask questions, but if you jump ahead, you'll need to wait for my next experience to get the responses.
Jeff fit me into a pair of Tecnica XTs in 2003. While they were not ideal, they were about as close as he felt we could get at the time. By the middle of last season, I was having some challenges with my feet (especially my heels) moving around in the boots. As a result, I put ZipFits into them during the ESA. After further study, I don't think that going with the ZipFits was the right "fix." Fundamentally, I think the movement was due to the more aggressive forward lean in the XTs that exacerbated my physiology (feet quite short for my height). So, after trying on a pair of Nordica Aggressors at the Nordica Race Camp in May, I decided to look into new boots this year (for completeness, days 2 and 3 of the race camp are in those threads).
I visited with Jeff over the summer, and he took a look at my stance in stocking feet. He mentioned that he thought the Aggressor would be a good boot for my stance and foot shape. We chatted a bit, and after some encouragement from others (most notably Bob Barnes/Colorado noting that they are running low on inventory), I took the leap today and picked up a pair of Nordica Aggressor 150s, size 5. Now, I have a relatively narrow size 8 1/2 US foot and have been skiing in a size 25.5 XT (UK 6 1/2). The size 5 (24 mondo) is about a half-finger fit, but, as Scott at the Loveland Sport Shop notes, there is enough plastic to work it to a size 6, if necessary. Given my past experience with boots becoming too big, I decided to try the smaller size.
One item of note: the Aggressors come in a plastic briefcase! I felt like I should handcuff them to my wrist or something. Impressive.
After wearing them for 15 minutes or so, my ears were not bleeding ( ), nor had any parts of my feet gone to sleep, so I peeled them off, paid, and headed for Breck to visit Jeff.
When I arrived (as is typical), he was working with another client. I hung around a bit, he invited me to change into shorts (so he could see my knees more clearly) and also put on my ski socks. After re-familiarizing himself with my stance ("Oh, yeah, the Aggressors are going to work very well for you."), he checked a few more things. He noted my natural stance is somewhat duck-footed, my short feet also have a high instep (he described it as what is length for many people becomes height) and that my knees track inward when I stand with feet pointed forward--and straight when they are splayed out. Then he had me get into the boots.
He checked the location of the knee over the toe, had me flex and watched it track, had me tip each boot in succession, then both at once. Every time one direction, then the other. Turn 90 degrees so he's watching from the side. Then back.
He was delighted, "You were born for these boots!" he exclaimed (although I like to think that they were made for me...  ). He likes the way I set up in them. That's where we left it for today.
I have an appointment later this month to do the next step of work. His goal with me (as for everyone) is to work the boot to the point where I'm balanced pretty evenly across my foot fore/aft. It seems that my foot type implies that I carry my weight primarily on the balls of my feet and this will by default be the case in ski boots. He is going to work to get me more balanced across the foot by changing the boot. Obviously, more on this when I next get work done.
A number of things I took away from my experiences today:
- Stance and physiology are the key inputs to the right boot model for everyone
- The input of a specialist who understands this is critical
- There is no "best" in boots; they are very personal selections
- There is no substitute for physiological and anatomical knowledge and experience from your boot balancing specialist
- There are differing views of "optimal stance", with some being more upright and some more focused on range of motion. Make sure your balancer has the same concept you do
- Fit is far more easily adjusted than is balance
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You know it makes sense.
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After the odyssey of the past week (including two aborted attempts to get up there), I actually made it to Boot Fixation yesterday afternoon a bit before my appointment time of 1:30. I had skied the boots in the morning at Loveland without having them fit, so had a good idea of where the various pressure points, etc. would be. I did ski them without footbeds to make them somewhat bearable, though, so the sensations weren't perfect.
The first order of the day was for Jeff to refresh his memory of my feet and stance. After changing into shorts, I stood naturally in my bare feet and flexed for him. Next, he took the stock footbeds and used them to trim the custom footbeds he had made for me for my previous boots. Then, it was time to do some grinding...
First, he gave me some space along the lateral side of the boot, the big toe area, and the various other parts of my feet that needed a better match to the shell. The Nordicas I have are specifically not built to be skied out of the box, and the shell plastic is very thick specifically so it can be ground and shaped like this. He would have me step into the boot shells with the footbeds in the shell and makeup on my feet. I'd move around in the boots to get my feet to touch the shell, then he would go to work grinding those areas.
I had an especially painful area around my inside ankle bones, but we both think that's probably a liner issue, so I'm going to let that go a bit longer before I have him grind it more.
After more than an hour of grinding and re-fitting, he wanted to get a look at my alignment before we went to grab a bite to eat. The movements I was getting were a bit in conflict with his expectations based on my stance, so he decided to think about it over some food. Off we went to grab a bite at Eric's.
When we got back, I put the boots back on. As he thought might happen, this time the alignment and results matched his expectations. This underlines how patience is rewarded in balancing, and I very much appreciate Jeff's thoroughness and focus.
He thought that I might need a little canting on my left boot, but when he started the process of planing them, it turns out that the soles were a bit warped. So, he planed both boots flat and I got back into them. After this, he was pleased with the left boot (where he had thought there might be a need for a slight cant), but wanted to move the cuff of the right boot to more closely match my leg shape. Once he did, lower leg movement matched my left boot.
He also took a little bit off the bootboard of my right boot, effectively canting the heel of the boot slightly to get better movement to the outside edge of my right ski.
He thinks that we may want to adjust the fore/aft balance a bit, but he'd like to see me skiing in them before he makes decisions about what to do next. We tested raising the toes both a little and a lot, but nothing was real conclusive, so we decided to have me ski in them a bit and ideally get some video for him to watch with a couple of turns so that he can see how they are working for me.
Lastly, since I was getting some circulation sensations in both feet, he shaved down the footboards from the ball forward.
At that point, I decided it was close enough for me to spend some time in them, both skiing and also allowing the cork & oil liners to mold to my feet. It was late and I was tired.
...as an aside, cgeib came back while I was there and had a bit of the fore/aft tweaked. As a result, Jeff needed to shave the lugs again. As an example of his thoroughness, he spent some time manually removing the bit of extra material left behind by the router, using a box cutter to trim it right up to the boot and also to round off the leading edge of the lug. 
Note: here's me skiing on the boots prior to having them fit or balanced at all (first runs of the season; I've got some playing with my technique to do! 
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FAQ
