 Poster: A snowHead
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This is a very interesting discussion guys...
...not least because I feel it's going to help me with my BASI stuff this season.
| ssh wrote: |
| Can you see that, since fore/aft balance is so important, the position you find yourself in while in balance in your boots on your skis is a key? |
I find that a very reasonable proposition.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PhillipStanton, ssh, Another can of worms. What is neutral?
My take is that your shins should be touching the tongue, with further fore movement possible by flexing.
However, the race coach in me says that as our bindings are already mounted 2/3 of the way back on a typical race ski, then the shin/tongue pressure should be slightly more than just "touching"........
And that's Martin Bell's take on it too....
http://travel.guardian.co.uk/activities/wintersports/story/0,,418249,00.html
But just to clarify - for a recreational skier - I don't like to see people "hanging" in the front of their boots.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have this book which was recommended by my first Pilates instructor about 5 years ago.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| PhillipStanton, ssh, Another can of worms. What is neutral? |
Excellent. I like worms.
| veeeight wrote: |
| My take is that your shins should be touching the tongue, with further fore movement possible by flexing. |
Interestingly, the BASI guys I've been taught by in Morzine are in the neutral = not touching camp. I could also swear that it's the position of the Murray Camp guys in Whistler - although stuarth might be able to comment if he's passing...
veeeight where do you, errr, "stand" on the ball / heel issue?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| easiski wrote: |
| ......most peeps can't pul them selve back up I find - I'm frequently horrified how weak many of my really quite young students are in this region. |
Really, from how far back?
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| Quote: |
veeeight where do you, errr, "stand" on the ball / heel issue?
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For advanced skiers - start the turn on the ball of the foot, as you progress through the turn you should finish on the heel.
Is that what you meant?
| Quote: |
| Interestingly, the BASI guys I've been taught by in Morzine are in the neutral = not touching camp. I could also swear that it's the position of the Murray Camp guys in Whistler |
Ah, but was that teaching methodology, ie; in some boots, the forward lean angle is so aggressive that in order to get someone to stand in the middle of their cuff - I have to sometimes say leave a gap in the front and back, and then 5 mins later they are just touching the tongue.......
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| veeeight wrote: |
For advanced skiers - start the turn on the ball of the foot, as you progress through the turn you should finish on the heel.
Is that what you meant? |
Yes.
I'd be interested in easiski's view. Not for the sake of argument ("Is this the 10 minute argument?"), but for the sake of understanding.
| veeeight wrote: |
| Ah, but was that teaching methodology, ie; in some boots, the forward lean angle is so aggressive that in order to get someone to stand in the middle of their cuff - I have to sometimes say leave a gap in the front and back, and then 5 mins later they are just touching the tongue....... |
Maybe. Which takes us full circle back to ssh's comment surely?
My head's beginning to hurt. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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OK. Just to hurt your head a little more.
"Start on the BoF and finish on the heel" is a teaching methodology. It just gives the student the picture.
In reality this is impossible, if you want to work the ski fore-aft during the turn.
The technique is:
Phase 1 (completion to neutral) - Ankles fully extended (open). (In this position, actually, you'll be pressing down on the gas pedal hard with your BoF. Your calves will be hard against the back of the boot.
Phase 2 (neutral to fall line) - edge (and/or steer) the skis into the fall line, establish the new turning platform. CoM maintains momentum, moving forward and inside the arc.
Phase 3 (fall line to completion) - progressively increase edge able through angulation. Flex lower joints to manage pressure.
But this is too techno now, esp in the written form. Much easier to explain and do on the hill.
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That makes sense veeeight.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'll have to come back to this one - must go to work. May find time during the day, but it's difficult. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PhillipStanton, I agree with veeeight, up to a point, but when he talks about advanced skiers, I would suggest that we're looking at Grade 2 + level skiing, as the pressure on the tail of the ski/heel movement is very subtle indeed. Actually I've written to John clarke at Eurosport asking him not to talk too much about this. In the past I've had a number of peeps who've said "oh but you're supposed to be on your heel at the end of the turn", when they've interpreted this as leaning back!
I like to think of my shins snuggling into a nice tongue shaped duvet all the time, and squashing the duvet for action. Same thing that V8 said but a different analagy. I would go a bit more with the Italians in that I like to start the turn with an extension of the leg, applying pressure to the big toe area of the boot/ski. You can then ride this through to the apex of the turn, when you begin to relax or flex the legs to absorb the pressure (same as V8 at the end really). Thus nowadays only having one extension movement and one flexion movement (as opposed to the bad old days of down - up - down or "plier, planter, sauter".) It's important that you ankle flexes more than your knees or you will end up in the back seat.
From your point of view, of course, you'll have to follow the BASI line regardless. I think they're too far back in their stance - but there you are.
From a biomechanical standpoint, I checked with some top bods a couple of years ago, (I've worked extensively in the Sport & Exercise Science Department at the University of Bath) when this argument was raging, and they felt that you should stand on the balls of your foot as that is where you would normally stand for good balance, and that's where you generate forward movement from. Anyway they are some of the best in the world so I believe them. 
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| easiski wrote: |
| I like to think of my shins snuggling into a nice tongue shaped duvet all the time, and squashing the duvet for action. |
We're still on skiing here? Just checking...
| easiski wrote: |
| It's important that you ankle flexes more than your knees or you will end up in the back seat. |
That's a very useful point.
| easiski wrote: |
| From your point of view, of course, you'll have to follow the BASI line regardless. I think they're too far back in their stance - but there you are. |
Therein lies a very pertinent observation - if you want to pass a BASI 3 (or any other skiing quali), you have to comply with the system!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
PhillipStanton, I agree with veeeight, up to a point, but when he talks about advanced skiers, I would suggest that we're looking at Grade 2 + level skiing, as the pressure on the tail of the ski/heel movement is very subtle indeed.
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Yup I would concur, it's rare that you see a BASI3 doing this, and even rarer to see a recreational skier doing this.
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I think they're too far back in their stance - but there you are.
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Interesting observation. I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I would prefer skiers to keep their shoulders above their toes, to even out the fore-aft picture. ie' I think many ski with their backs too upright.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I know I'm coming in at a tangent here but I've had 3 weeks of lessons and 3 more weeks on snow without lessons. I feel that i progressed reasonably quickly as I spent my youth ice skating and rollerblading and playing rugby and hockey and running. Now i mostly just watch really good skiers, video myself and then watch it back and try and make myself look like them. I'm not too fussed about having the best technique or over thinking it but might this method cause me problems later on?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Depends what your objectives are.
If you're happy cruising the groomed blues and reds on holiday - just enjoy the skiing.
If you want to tackle off-piste, variable terrain, bumps, powder etc. - take a lesson.
If you want to pursue this as a sport - take a lesson and some coaching.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| element wrote: |
| I know I'm coming in at a tangent here but I've had 3 weeks of lessons and 3 more weeks on snow without lessons. I feel that i progressed reasonably quickly as I spent my youth ice skating and rollerblading and playing rugby and hockey and running. Now i mostly just watch really good skiers, video myself and then watch it back and try and make myself look like them. I'm not too fussed about having the best technique or over thinking it but might this method cause me problems later on? |
I gave up lessons after three weeks. Worst mistake I ever made in skiing. I spent the next 15 years perfecting my bad habits and restricting myself to terrain I felt comfortable on. That didn't mean I didn't enjoy the skiing, but I'd be a much better skier now and able to ski all the mountain if I'd had lessons from a good instructor every so often.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hehe, i was pretty sure that would be the response, but was kind of hoping it wouldn't be:)
cheers guys:)
lesson it is
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| element wrote: |
Hehe, i was pretty sure that would be the response, but was kind of hoping it wouldn't be:)
cheers guys:)
lesson it is |
Yeah, I've only had one weeks lessons, and was able to go down blacks etc, in what i thought was good enough technique etc, so i never bothered with lessons my next 2 times and got on the best, for what we were doing having craic etc. But I posted a video on this link, you may have seen it and my techniqie is pretty crap, and like yourself, play fair bit of sport so fit, so that was probably making up for lack of technique. May try a private lessons to see if i couldn;t correct it a bit.
Where ya from in NI?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| element wrote: |
| I know I'm coming in at a tangent here but I've had 3 weeks of lessons and 3 more weeks on snow without lessons. I feel that i progressed reasonably quickly as I spent my youth ice skating and rollerblading and playing rugby and hockey and running. Now i mostly just watch really good skiers, video myself and then watch it back and try and make myself look like them. I'm not too fussed about having the best technique or over thinking it but might this method cause me problems later on? |
element, I know people who have skied like that for years and are perfectly happy. I think, as veeeight says - it depends on what you want out of your skiing.
It's easy to get carried away trying to be good at stuff. Mrs PhillipStanton and I learned to dinghy sail a few years ago and got stuck into trying to "be better" at it. But, in truth, we've neither the time nor inclination to be good at sailing - or do those things you need to do to be good at sailing, like racing. After three years we were finally brave enough to admit that we're rubbish at it and that we enjoy it despite the fact we'll never be good.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Im from lisburn, yourself?
I identify with the sailing anecdote 
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Portglenone, I'm probably in a similar situation, will probably only be able to ski 1 or 2 weeks a season so it will be more an enjoyable holiday rather than serious skiing, although, I need to the my technique sorted as it should make it easier for me int he long run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting topic. I take customer surveys at Copper Mountain. There's a question about level of skiing, as well as how long they've been skiing, and how often they get to the slopes. I find that the people who live in Atlanta, Florida, Texas, etc. who get about five ski days a year are more apt to call themselves "advanced experts," whereas locals who ski every week will call themselves "advanced intermediates.
To me, the key word is "do." if someone tells me that they "do" Black Diamonds, I try to stay far away from them when I ski!
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little tiger,
Looks good, with more to come, will practice that doing movements and always returning to the "D Stance", my natural positon when skiing so far has been all wrong.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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veeeight, Yes -n I think they have a tendency to be too upright (although they seem to be dead fussy about the rounded lower back). I am, for sure - bu then I'm protecting my dodgy (very) lower back - I acn adopt a better position, but after a short while it starts to cause problems. However, if your weight is over the middle of your foot, then having your shoulders over your toes is not so natural. I like the "Tony knows" thing that what posted the other day!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| MhicEasmuint wrote: |
little tiger,
Looks good, with more to come, will practice that doing movements and always returning to the "D Stance", my natural positon when skiing so far has been all wrong. |
if you are following it then it would not hurt to drop Rick a line or two and let him know... he stopped posting a while back after copping flack... and I sorely missed his input...
I think it would be good for him to know he has some takers for the lower level stuff (ie not super tech talk)
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element, at this late time of night I will chip in with a comment that - while I have felt myself improve by watching good skiers (and to my aesthetic POV it's hard to beat the ESF although the Canadians look nice too) it is really hard to truly understand what you are doing yourself - without external feedback: be that expert advice or simply a mate with a video.
It is very easy to believe that you are doing what you saw (or, believed you saw) and not be doing it, or worse be doing what you thought you saw which isn't what you want to be doing anyway. If that makes any sense whatsoever!
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch, It makes sense to me DM. I've found seeing myself on video to be the best learning tool I've had.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DM,
Makes sense to me as well, you can't do it without feedback IMV and I'd start with ESF as the benchmark...mostly..!!
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FAQ
