 Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| I actually don't like little tiger's pic very much because it appears to show downsink at the beginning of the turn - Oh no!!!! (faints) - that's toooooooo old school for words and causes an interruption in the flow down the hill (PSIA phrasing there). |
Are we watching the same video? The PSIA Basic Parallel.
I see an up-unweighting at the beginning of the turn, settling to a flex at the end of the turn.
I don't necessarily think it's old school, especially where beginners are concerned (basic parallel).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easkiski:
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| Most mainland europeans (not sure about BASI) now believe that we should stand on the balls of our feet, knees over the toes (roughly) and hips over the balls/arches - no further back than that. Thus our skeleton is "stacked up" one bone on top of the other, and actually holding us up - which is what it's there for. Any further back position (or indeed forward) results in muscles having to take over the work of holding us up. Now the quads will do this, but they complain - that's not what they're for! Try thinking of it this way: the brakes on the skis are in front of your toe bindings - the accelerator is behind your heel. |
On postition when i look back at the video the lower part of my legs are nearly always vertical, knee's definately not over toes, and my hips well back. It's definately doing too much on my quads, in LDA i remember we went from the top and when going down the diable having to stop every 30 metres or so as my quads were absolutely burning.
With the boots is there enough flex to enable the knee's to be forward over the toes. I have always worn the boots as tight as possible so far, felt that i had more control of skis. Which I now know is wrong as I would have been more forcing the skis into the turn rather than letting them do the work. But if I wear the boots very tight would that restrict movement forward to knee's over toes position much?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
I actually don't like little tiger's pic very much because it appears to show downsink at the beginning of the turn - Oh no!!!! (faints) - that's toooooooo old school for words and causes an interruption in the flow down the hill (PSIA phrasing there). Sadly I can't watch the vids on this very slow connection.
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if you mean the vail ski schools basic parallel - it is OK - I dislike it... but was the first place I could think to find a "not racer" video for him.... and you have to agree it is certainly a decent comparator for him re his video... (ie it would get him more in the right direction to imagine skiing like that than as he is atm)
If you get to a place the vids work i would suggest watching the first one of Michael Milton - many gold medals at paralympics and world level.... including all 4 alpine medals in his class at Salt Lake the guy rocks on that ski!
His website is not bad either http://www.michaelmilton.com/
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| MhicEasmuint wrote: |
On postition when i look back at the video the lower part of my legs are nearly always vertical, knee's definately not over toes, and my hips well back. It's definately doing too much on my quads, in LDA i remember we went from the top and when going down the diable having to stop every 30 metres or so as my quads were absolutely burning.
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well now you know the cause of the quad burn.... you can fix it....
do you have ski boots? or hire them?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little_tiger
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| do you have ski boots? or hire them? |
Just hired so far.
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Ok... so you cannot practice in ski boots (btw I find hire boots very hard to ski in)
but you could try just standing in the stance you want in front of a full length mirror and see how close you look... (some people teach this for rollerblades... but you have the skates on then).... try to get a feel for where you want to be... try extending and flexing (getting longer and shorter) but still keeping the relationship between knees/toes and hips/ankles the same
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MhicEasmuint,
Can't be bothered to trawl through all this, so if someone else has already said it, apologies...but
don't jump on a flat landing....
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| easiski wrote: |
| Most mainland europeans (not sure about BASI) now believe that we should stand on the balls of our feet, knees over the toes (roughly) and hips over the balls/arches - no further back than that. Thus our skeleton is "stacked up" one bone on top of the other, and actually holding us up - which is what it's there for. Any further back position (or indeed forward) results in muscles having to take over the work of holding us up. Now the quads will do this, but they complain - that's not what they're for! Try thinking of it this way: the brakes on the skis are in front of your toe bindings - the accelerator is behind your heel. |
easiski, little tiger, I have heard a mnemonic for this (probably on Epic?) - Tony Knows (toe-knee-nose) i.e. toes, knees and nose should be in line.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ssh, I'll PM you later! Can't let all the trade secrets out at once!!! 
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eng_ch,
I have heard that too... but my instructors have never used it.... They want
1)hip just forward of front of ankle(line up with upward curve of boot in front of ankle)
2)back and lower leg make same angle from vertical
3)elbows ahead of body
I just know my regular instructor would make me stop and place stock vertically against my hip (when I was not expecting)...
"Now where are your hips?" OK I need the feedback - and I could do it myself - and it worked I guess as folks stopped harassing me about it after a while...
The canadian wants "shoulders forward" a lot..... but they hunch a bit.... the austrians seem to favour more "punched in stomach" than "hunched at shoulders" arrrgghhh
THE Italian swears he fixed my short turns just by teaching me how to move my hips(pelvis??) forward through the turn a touch.... He said that was my problem there - and I confess it works... he said my "basic stance" was OKish but I failed to relocate me as needed to manage the skis... so we spent time learning to move(??new outside?? easiski??) shoulder forward early in turn and moving hips.... I still am not REALLY clear where the timing sits...but do know it worked and felt much more controlled.... the canadian had been trying to get the hip movement but I failed to be able to execute the movement for him (Italians approach was more "hands on" I think feeling the movement and then being told to use my own hands to make the move - and having him do same right ahead of me helped a lot)
This is why I made the comment about spiral learning.... you are endlessly refining what "balanced" over your skis is about....
My other instructor once commented that when one had "Good stance and balance on a black run" you were ready to "start to learn to really ski"
This post was written exclusively for me and my problems but contains some good "dial in" type exercises I think (easiski may comment if they would be OK for normal folks)
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=188607&highlight=basic+stance#post188607
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yeah - I have never seen much difference in where instructors wanted me over the skis... only some style stuff like hunch or punch stomach... pretty much most of their ways of measuring it end you up the same area.... (as you would expect)
Yes - time warp etc did nothing for me.... but grabbing my hips and moving them worked just fine!
:shrug: I don't care as long as it works I'll use whatever to get there....
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| little tiger wrote: |
| :shrug: I don't care as long as it works I'll use whatever to get there.... |
Oh yeah!!!! And it's often just one throw-away phrase that completes the circuit in my mind such as "it's ice so you're going to skid, just accept it".
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You know it makes sense.
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The one I liked was "you have ten dollars worth of concentration - spend it wisely "
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| easiski wrote: |
little tiger, I can't see aby problems for anyone doing those exercises, but for most people it will probably not be necessary to actually use their hands/arms as described.
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yeah - they were written just for me.... if you look through the thread you can see the questionaire I had to respond to (i think there were about 3 posts)....
I was to do the exercises and report back.... for the NEXT sequence....
By the time we went through the thread the problem I had at THAT time was sorted....
However i have decided I will work through that this season anyway - because I need to find a way to "locate" my feet at the start of each season without an instructor to provide external feedback...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, Loved your Italian teaching video! I don't speak Italian either but the movements were very clear.
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yeah I thought they were nice clear demos of what they wanted too....
wish I could understand what they say...
Anyone want to translate? 
glad you enjoyed them
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah just gettin a look now as well little tiger, would be great to know what was being said also.
I do not lean forward enough.
The ones in the Oro video can fairly go. Can only dream of going like that at the minute.
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| MhicEasmuint wrote: |
I do not lean forward enough.
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Yeah it is hard to learn to stand at 90degrees to the slope... because our natural tendency is to stand UP like trees grow.... after all when we walk on hills we do exactly that...
I think the argento base video shows the body positions nicely.... you can see the nice flexed ankles/knees/hips and when they extend you can see all the joints do so.... and that the shoulders are a bit forward.... Check out where their hands are ALL the time....(and elbows)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
after all when we walk on hills we do exactly that...
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I used to say that, but easiski disagrees (I think) 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PhillipStanton, all those photos are of very skilled skiers who are adopting their stance for very particular reasons. For recreational skiers isn't 90° to the slope a good thing to aim for, rather than 90° to the horizon?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, definitely better than 0º to the slope, where I frequently end up! 
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You know it makes sense.
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It all depends - the WC skiers are so far forward from their ankles and upper body that their overall balance will be around 90 deg to the slope I believe, but really it's 90 deg to THE SKIS, so quite often off piste skiers appear to be leaning back, but their skis will not be at the same angle as the slope, so it's deceptive. With very good skiers, there's also a lot of lateral movement which affects dynamic balance, but most holiday skiers don't bother to go this far with their technique.
The point is, when walking down steep slopes (you can try this at home) you'll find that to say in control and/or slow down, you press really hard on the balls and toes. If you want to slow down more than seems natural for the slope, you'll flex your ankles more to achieve it - honestly - go out and try on a steep, preferably loos-ish sufaced bank. If you lean on your heels you fall over (I did this in the summer accidentally). When ski-ing, if you lean back, it's almost impossible to keep your weight on your balls and toes - not sure why, but someone more technical than me will be able to explain it. Thus peeps stand on their heels, and are out of balance and to a degree, out of control.
Try standing in your living room more than a degree or so out of perpendicular and see what happens.  :lol:this comes back to little tiger,'s fore and aft exercices - to feel the point of balance you have to begin to feel when you're too far forward or too far back.
there's also a little thing called abs ..... they're what bring you back in balance when you've lost it ........... now, be honest, except for Little Tiger, how many of you work on your abs much????
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, me, pilates classes certainly work your deep abdominals. I noticed the improvement in my skiing a couple of years ago, and have noticed the deterioration last winter, I've started a class again, once a week, but I'm doing a DVD as well in the house. It also helps your point of balance, as it teaches you to distribute your weight evenly across the whole of your foot (a triangle from little toe to heel, to big toe.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 8-10-06 19:37; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Helen Beaumont, No - no - no weight on your heel please. Well done though - most peeps can't pul them selve back up I find - I'm frequently horrified how weak many of my really quite young students are in this region.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, ye, but as it improved my general posture and balance, so my skiing improved too. and I assumed that was it, as my weight was more evenly distributed. Yus actually put less weight on your heel than normally though. Part of the warm-up is shifting your weight forward and back, and across the ball of the foot. Maybe I didn't explain properly. As I 'sat back' rather a lot, there would be less weight on the heel than before.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Helen Beaumont, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| easiski wrote: |
| No - no - no weight on your heel please. |
easiski - it's worth saying that there are two distinct camps on the where your weight should be.
One camp has it only over the ball of the foot. You're clearly in this camp - as is Warren Smith.
The other camp has your weight evenly balanced between the ball of the foot and the heel - with the flexibility to be on the ball or heel. This is where the Morzine chapter of BASI seems to be; Ron le Master and the instructors I've skied with in Whistler.
Personally, I haven't a clue which is right - ok, ok, ok, ok, I know you're right! - but it is one of the difficulties that people have switching ski instructors - one person will tell you X is right and the other will tell you X is wrong.
BTW - this is a very good pilates book if anyone is looking for one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PhillipStanton, Good observation.
It's important to distinguish "teaching methodology" from "technique" (another Ron LeMaster ethos).
If I'm teaching recreational skiers, say early intermediates to higher intermediates who are skiing mainly on groomed runs, I will say to them, "feel for the ball of the foot, and the big toe pressing down". I might also ask them to feel for the front of the shin against the front of the boot. That is the teaching methodology.
The technique is to be centred in the boot.
But unfortunately for 99.9% of intermediate recreational skiers they will almost certainly be standing on their heels, with their calves against the back of the boot. So by asking them to go for the front of the boot I stand a fighting chance of them being where they should be.
For more advanced skiers in high energy turns on groomed terrain, or skiing in ungroomed terrain, much more fore-aft motion with the ankles is required. It's with these skiers that the teaching methodology and technique start to converge, and I will start talking more about the "whole of foot support", "arch", "BoF", "heel", explaining what's appropriate for what situation.
Re the different instuctions and advice given by different instructors, I always invite my clients to bring up issues where they have been told a different thing in the past, and we can talk it through. Very often, it's not conflicting advice, but simply relevant to that skier at that moment in time.
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easiski, me too. Both Pilates (since Jan) and regular saxophone playing - 5 hours last night alone! Honestly, I very rarely feel my stomach muscles at all after Pilates when everyone else is complaining of soreness and even the instructor says she feels the exercises after 8 years' experience - well I've been playing the sax for 20 years now. I know it sounds daft but it's the only thing I can attribute the strength of my stomach muscles to. Also works the back muscles from supporting several kilos of sax with no support other than a shoulder harness.
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eng_ch, I've always thought that sax is good exercise.
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Um. I tend to try to do what I'm told, at LDA. I find it makes for a better atmosphere in the Lutins bar in the evening 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ya'll, if you haven't had your boots truly balanced fore/aft by someone who understands the importance of being in natural balance while standing in cuff-neutral, it is very likely that you are in a constant fight to get into balance forced by the fact that cuff neutral isn't "in balance" for you. Can you see that, since fore/aft balance is so important, the position you find yourself in while in balance in your boots on your skis is a key?
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FAQ
to see how easy it is to flex your ankles. (Of course I am braced to hold the little lad back). Thanks Brian again. 
But the voiceover is beyond me at 2am straight after a 5 hour gig, sorry 
Might try tomrrow or in the week
