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Womens Skis:Let's try and establish some FACTS.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
For many years manufacturers have made skis specifically for women.
For some of the manufacturers this involves simply using the same moulds as mens skis and just changing the graphics.
For others it involves, again, using the same moulds as mens skis, changing graphics and using lighter materials as the average woman is less strong than the average man.
However for some, womens skis are designed specifically for women, that means; moulds, construction materials, graphics and the most important, flex pattern.

If we were to take two skiers of exactly the same ability, one a guy one a girl and put them on lets say a Rossi B2. Mount both skis the same and get them to ski, the guy here would have the advantage in the early part of the turn at initiation. The reason for this is that the guy carries the greatest proportion of his weight around his shoulders and by leaning forward he displaces this weight closer to the tip of the ski, thus working the area of the ski designed for turn initiation. The girl however carries the greatest proportion of her weight at hip level, therefore when leaning forward the hips will not be as close to the ski tips as the guys shoulders Think of this as an arc from apex of hip/shoulder to the ski. So the girl will have a less dramatic effect on turn initiation.

Ok so to compensate for this, the ski manufacturers will adjust the sweet spot(the softest part of the ski at center) further forward so that when the lady preloads the ski to turn, it reacts more quickly thus giving her the same turn initiation as a guy. Most of the manufacturers will make these adjustments at the higher end of the ski market, with skis at the lower end, recieving the lightweight floral design treatment as it is considered the less sporting lady skier
would like something more moblie(lighter) and passive(floral/soft graphics). Little Angel Toofy Grin


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 3-10-06 9:52; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
K2 say that their binding location on their 'Luv' range is further forward as women's COM is further back than men's.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 30-09-06 8:50; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spyderjon, True, but think of the ARC i spoke about, where will the weight from the apex of the shoulder be comparered to the pelvis?

By the Logic of what you're saying, K2 mount the binding of mens skis futher back as mens COM is further back Puzzled

Doesn't make any sense does it?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
spyderjon......By the Logic of what you're saying, K2 mount the binding of mens skis futher back as mens COM is further back Puzzled ......

They do as they're further back than their women's ski wink
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spyderjon, I see what you're getting at, however my point is, there is a point to womens skis.
Cuppa tea? Little Angel
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But if your basic technique is bad, you aren't going to feel the benefit of having the bindings set further forward. Don't you think that women pay a lot more attention to technique, whereas the average man is happy to hurtle around in any old position. It winds my husband up when we've had lessons and the instructor asks us how much longer have I been skiing than him wink
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Errgghhh, so now we've been told ; some will understand the techo stuff Embarassed so which ones are 'Good' and which are just pretty pictures?
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erica2004, True, Mrs SZK is way more tidy than me but has no chance when i let fly. Horses for courses, to me skiing is about speed and the limits of my control at a speed that excites me.
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Agenterre, I hope everyone understands where they carry most of their weight. I love the fact i carry mine in my shoulders, makes punching stuff fun! Toofy Grin
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I carry to much of my weight around my belly Crying or Very sad
Interesting about women being more controlled, generally I am a bit better and quicker down the mountain than mrs T Bar, but she never fails to rub it in that whenever we have been timed she is faster than me Puzzled
I think I'll have to get her some girly skis. Toofy Grin
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erica2004,

Quote:

But if your basic technique is bad, you aren't going to feel the benefit of having the bindings


I won't say Mrs Ski's technique is bad (heavens above), but she still has stuff to work on snowHead Anyway, she has Phat Luvs, and her turn initiation is better on those than on other skis. This seems to fit with SMALLZOOKEEPER, 's explanation.
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Quote:

generally I am a bit better and quicker down the mountain than mrs T Bar, but she never fails to rub it in that whenever we have been timed she is faster than me

yes, it's funny how much faster you can ski when nobody's timing you. The one that got away...
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, good info, thanks.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I posted a quick list in an earlier thread that went something like:


(There's also a useful debate about womens specific boots on that earlier thread
++++++++++++++++++++++++


Among the characteristics that distinguish a Womens ski from a Mens ski:


1. Pretty Graphics (looks nice)

2. Softer/different flex pattern, by changing materials in the makeup of the ski (easier to bend esp for lightweight folk, if you've got thighs like Anja P then this won't be any good for you)

3. Lighter construction, again by changing materials (lighter to carry, won't feel as heavy dangling from a chair lift, good for when you're in the air, different swing weight in the steeps doing jump turns etc.)

4. Shorter lengths available (you can find the correct length)

5. Forward mounting position, although you can achieve this on most skis anyway, to accommodate CoM being lower and further back than a males, wider pelvis, (helps to stay centred, in the sweet spot, and eases turn initiation)
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm unconvinced by "THE FACTS" - SZK.

I started writing about ski equipment in the late 70s, most seriously from 1983 and the point you've expressed about distribution of mass (men vis-a-vis women) has been made ever since I can remember.

Firstly, a high proportion of men on skis have overblown bellies (not weight centred at shoulder level) and many athletic (or lucky) women have admirably slim figures with their weight quite evenly distributed. Many women are capable of strong carving technique, sometimes applying powerful leverage to the forebody of the ski. Many men (and, of course, women) - probably the majority - ski by skidding the tails of the skis around and not applying the technique of turn initiation you stress. That's because so many skiers are inadequately trained.

But ski manufacturers don't stress "we've made this ski for you because you don't take lessons". It wouldn't be very diplomatic marketing!

What's your scientific evidence for what you say?

It comes across as sexist tosh.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
There was a sort of parallel thread on one of the mountain bike forums regarding Women Specific Design bikes. These have frames designed for shorter torso/longer leg shapes, smaller hand grips, shorter brake lever movement etc. The problem is that although they fit many women better, a large number of women don't conform to the WSD stereotype. These people are finding it difficult to buy suitable small unisex/male bikes because dealers are reducing stock and manufacturers are cutting back on supply.

I hope the same doesn't happen in skiing and we only get skis and boots in smaller sizes that are what the manufacturers think the typical woman needs/wants, ignoring the rest of the women/small men/youth market. I know of one UK ski shop that now only stocks men's boots from size 27.0 upwards.

My wife hates the girlie graphics/everything must be pink trend. She skis in men/unisex boots (bought in the days when you could still get them in a 25.0) because that is what fitted her best. It was nice to have the choice.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 1-10-06 10:43; edited 1 time in total
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David Goldsmith, Why sexist tosh? There are certain physical differences between men and women that can't be denied, manufactures will use an average body model, an ideal. Sorry David, i'm not trying to upset the girls. Simply provide them with the information given to me my the manufacturers. As for scientific evidence, use your common sense a little! Little Angel
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jtr, the majority if not all mens / unisex boot are available in 25/ 25.5 in fact many are available in 24/24.5 just a matter of picking your shop carefully

the shop you mention is obviously only in the market of selling boots rather than finding the best for their clients and fitting them... name them shame them if you want but i would suggest not shoping with them Little Angel
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jtr, Thats a shame on the boot front, our most popular male size is 26/5. Toofy Grin
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David Goldsmith, Have you been skiing since the introduction of 'carving' ski's Puzzled
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Yes, dear. I've been skiing since the introduction of fibreglass (well, actually, two years earlier)
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boredsurfin, Laughing Laughing Laughing

I sent this privately to SMALLZOOKEEPER, but he thought I should post it for all to see, so here it is:

Many of the female snowheads will suit/like the various ladies offerings as much as many of my clients do - True Luv is very popular. The lady in question (on the other thread) though, is a rower! That means she's big and strong and sporty - rowing being a power sport if ever there was one. I just feel that most of the skis I've tried (and I've tried as many of the "top" level ladies skis as I can get my hands on) have been squarely aimed at the middling intermediate cruisy lady, not one who really wants to ski! Ladies are well catered for in park and pipe (like the misdemenor), but for fast skiing on piste there really doesn't seem to be anything. I therefore thought that she might feel the experience as I do, and would be disappointed.

I think the point about the placement of the bindings is very true and helps, but although the "point d'equilibre" and the sweet spot using a unisex ski may not be totally the same, you can play with it until you find your ideal. I think there are skis that are made for you. On my Fischers I just feel perfectly balanced and in harmony with the ski and the mountain almost all the time - the best skis (for me) I've ever had in more than 50 years skiing. The Zag rouge's come close.

I actually find it curious, being a skier who's been citicised for years for not being agressive enough or fast enough or ....... (young enough?) that the skis I find best are usually the ones classed as for agressive skiers - experts! huh - what's that mean? I wonder how much it has to do with the majority's lack of balance and technique and needing power to compensate. The Misdemenors were truly frightening on the glacier at a fair GS speed on ice - no control whatsoever - flapping all over, and very unstable in the length. The following day though on the Scott P3 ................. Proper ski!

I also found at MK that although most of the skis I tried were fine: Volkl Attiva, (OK mid range turns and edge hold but on good snow) Dynastar Exclusive, (nice shorter radius, actually felt agile and light, not sure about longer turns on hard snow) Ninthward Butterlicious,(easy and soft, preferred the Compte) Amplid Infrawhite, (excellent on crud, jury out to hopefully try them at the PSB on longer, faster turns) Nordica Conqueror, again nice mid range ski, held OK, didn't like quick stuff and felt rather unlively) they were mostly very mid range. OTOH the Nordica Speed Machine - that was a proper ski - felt good straight away, want to try them some more. The odd ones out were the race department Head WC SL: that one needed some serious work - I had to ski properly and with modern technique - couldn't get away with much. Not quite as vicious as the VR27 though! So what does that say? I've yet to find a ladies ski that performs all round as well as the Scott Aztec Pro, Movement Demon Flame, Zag Le Rouge, Scott P3 or even my racy Fischers (actually fine in deep snow, just a bit difficult in breakable!) I'm still looking though, and hopeful, but I think the market for decent women skiers is quite small, and most manufacturers are now looking at volume only.
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easiski, try the Head Fast Thang or * Thangs. Most of my women colleagus are really really pleased with their * Thangs!
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One thing that Ive found striking is that women appear to have their center of gravity further back on the skis. The hips are further back relative to the heels compared to a male skier of similar skill level. Ive seen this on advanced female skiers as well.

I think part of this has to do with the shoulder/hip mass difference of men and female that has been discussed. This fact is made worse by the fact that men are on an avg taller. So you have much bigger leverage to "step into boot".

A man that bends his knees will automaticly sink deeper into his boots and get his butt right over his heels. Something a female skier has hard to accomplish unless she is a rower/swimmer or similar.

Moving the mounting point forward and moving the sweet spot of the skis does help to cure the syndromes of this problem but still the woman will have the same posture with the weight a bit further behind her heels then the male skier.

What I would find interesting is to see how a different binding for female skiers would work out. What Im thinkin about is a binding where the heel is a little bit higher then the toe. Ofcourse the binding plates would have to be adjusted as well.

If the angels of the ankle and knee flex are kept the same and the heel is moved up the entire body will tilt a little bit more forward. This would bring the butt over the heels and the shoulders a bit more forward as well.

I dont know but in theory I think it could work.

Tex
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I'd really like to see some scientific evidence that supports these claims about women's anatomy/balance/ability/weight distribution etc. etc.

Everything I've read over the decades suggests that this guff simply emerges from the various marketing departments of ski manufacturers and gets accepted as "FACTS" (quoting SZK)

If women were really that unbalanced I guess they'd be hopeless athletes generally, because they'd be falling over backwards. The best female skiers I've skied with have certainly equalled men, on any design of ski.
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OK, David Goldsmith, you want a bit of evidence - how about this. Kneel down, put your elbow against your knee, along the ground, stretch out your fingers and put a matchbox on the floor at the end of your fingertips. Now, still kneeling, clasp your hands behind your back, and try to touch the matchbox with your nose.

You will almost certainly fail and fall flat on your face - your wife will almost certainly manage it.

Demonstrates the very different CoM in women and men.

Try it.
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David Goldsmith, You'll be getting pregnant soon then i take it David.
I'm not one whom has an eye nor an ear for marketing. No one has said women are UNBALANCED just differently balanced. It would seem your infering there are not physical differences between men and women. If so why don't they compete against each other? rolling eyes
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GrahamN wrote:
OK, David Goldsmith, you want a bit of evidence - how about this. Kneel down, put your elbow against your knee, along the ground, stretch out your fingers and put a matchbox on the floor at the end of your fingertips. Now, still kneeling, clasp your hands behind your back, and try to touch the matchbox with your nose.

You will almost certainly fail and fall flat on your face - your wife will almost certainly manage it.

Demonstrates the very different CoM in women and men.

Try it.


That sounds like a fun game for the PSB.
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 You know it makes sense.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
David Goldsmith, You'll be getting pregnant soon then i take it David.

No chance. I'm on the pill.
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 brian
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David Goldsmith,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16126314&dopt=Abstract
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 Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, have you by any chance tried any of the Head ladies' skis yet? The Fast Thang has the same dimensions as the iSL so should be interesting come PSB, especially in light of what you just said. I may have bitten off more than I can chew with it, but at the price I got them for, if I end up flogging them on eBay the experiment will still have cost less than a day's ski hire/testing. You mention no ladies' skis being designed for really short turns, but the blurb says this is exactly what the Fast Thang is designed for.
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easiski, Which skis are you considering to be unisex ?

Current race skis are made in specific male and female lengths, so I would expect that binding placement and sweet spot of the shorter ones would be similar to that of the other ladies' skis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FenlandSkier wrote:
GrahamN wrote:
OK, David Goldsmith, you want a bit of evidence - how about this. Kneel down, put your elbow against your knee, along the ground, stretch out your fingers and put a matchbox on the floor at the end of your fingertips. Now, still kneeling, clasp your hands behind your back, and try to touch the matchbox with your nose.

You will almost certainly fail and fall flat on your face - your wife will almost certainly manage it.

Demonstrates the very different CoM in women and men.

Try it.


That sounds like a fun game for the PSB.


After how many beers Shocked Laughing Laughing
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rjs, That's an interesting point. Unisex is just what I'm thinking is all skis not specifically made for women, but I suppose it's possible that with rigid lengths for FIS etc then they may have changed the sweet spot on the race skis in the women's length. do you know if this is the case or not? Generally I ski anything from 139 (my mini skis - actually I have some snowblades) to around 170, which is fine in a park ski or a very soft ski, but I find a bit long in an all mountain these days. Of course there are always caveats, and naturally I spend a lot of my time skiing very slowly and snowploughing/basic swinging etc.

TexMurphy, "A man that bends his knees will automaticly sink deeper into his boots and get his butt right over his heels."
I haven't observed this - the worst heel skiers are generally men because they're stronger and can get away with it, whereas we little ladies need to do it right! Laughing Laughing

David Goldsmith, You're talking through your hat I'm afraid. Men and women do have a different centre of mass, that's not in dispute; only whether it's necessary to make flowery skis to accommodate it!

veeeight, the Fast Thangs are on my list to try. I'll look forward to it.
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TexMurphy, What?? ''Their hips are further back relative to their heels compared to a male skier of a similar skill level"... I would dispute this. Having taken nearly 10 weeks of lessons (from a beginner, learning on shaped skis) I would say that the women in our groups have paid far more attention to position than the men. In fact, men seem to give up ski lessons relatively earlier than women. Or are you suggesting that all women have shorter legs than men? wink
At the end of the day, if you have a tall stance and proper ski position, you can ski any ski. A bad workman blames his tools. (Just as I've done). The guy who taught us in Lech skied the whole time in regular, bog standard piste skis. He took them off piste too.
I think women's skis must only 'come into their own' when they are designed for expert skiers who can work them and get the best out of them. For the rest of us, it really doesn't matter.
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easiski, a little slap on your wrist. "Basic Swing" is non current BASI/SSS/SSE lingo........ It's now called a "Plough Parallel"....... rolling eyes

Laughing
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... which is almost a literal German-English translation of the famous 'stem christie'
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easiski wrote:
David Goldsmith, You're talking through your hat I'm afraid. Men and women do have a different centre of mass, that's not in dispute ...

Can you provide a scientific reference? Not about my hat.
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erica2004 wrote:
Or are you suggesting that all women have shorter legs than men? wink


No, we just have big bums Laughing

"Darling does my bum look big on these?" Could become a new criterion for trying/buying skis Wink
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Very many women don't have big bums. Many men have huge ones.
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