 Poster: A snowHead
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CaravanSkier, there were two wolves spotted close to the village where we have our apartment, one further up the valley, and one in a garden on the edge of the village. Both in early spring towards the end of the ski season. There was one killed on a road in the Val de Clarée too. Given the distances these wolves can cover it could have been the same animal in all three cases, but there are increasing sitings.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| CaravanSkier, there were two wolves spotted close to the village where we have our apartment, one further up the valley, and one in a garden on the edge of the village. Both in early spring towards the end of the ski season. There was one killed on a road in the Val de Clarée too. Given the distances these wolves can cover it could have been the same animal in all three cases, but there are increasing sitings. |
How very exciting, and wonderful, however I am concious that I don`t live there and wonder if I would feel differently if I did. I remember camping in a small tent high in the Pyrenees in the 60`s. The land owner/farmer said a wolf had been sighted near by. I don`t know weather it was a wind up but to a small child it was quite scary.
Interesting photo of the bear!
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| sarah@alpedhuez wrote: |
| We've heard reports from locals here that 2 wolves were sighted along the col de Sarenne this summer, which led to the shepherds investing in 3 bloody enormous very scarry special wolf-chasing dogs (I don't remember the breed), but when you come face to face with one of those its serious contender for a 'brown trouser moment'!!! |
Beaucerons? http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/beauceron.htm
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wolves quite common round here. You can start getting really excited when you see a lynx.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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French farmers get angry about the wind changing direction.
They are pathetic.
Seeing grey wolves and black / brown bears while skiing is cool. There should be more of them.
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CaravanSkier, I might think differently if it was my sheep been eaten but there is a government compensation scheme if they are.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Seeing grey wolves and black / brown bears while skiing is cool. There should be more of them. |
+1
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| volklwaffen wrote: |
| Those bally sheperds have to realise the predators are part of their jobs. Gone are the days when they could leave their flocks in the alpages totally unattended until the start of the winter. How many of them just left the flock to their own device for days on end ? Way too many. They are now facing the fact they have to attend to their animals and they do not like that. Moreover, the governement is paying way too much for a so called "sheep lost to predators". Wolves, bears, vultures and gypaetes are part of the French ecosystems and should be reintroduced fully and remain regardless. |
That is a simplistic view of things. Wolves weren't part of the ecosystem for decades, so no they weren't "part of the job". That's why there's compensation..
I'm not saying wolves re-appearing isn't a good thing, just that if your employment conditions were made harder without your consent you'd likely have something to say about it. If someone told you "that's how it used to be 80-100 yrs ago" that'd be little consolation to you.
Leaving flocks to graze unattended is common practice, be it sheep, cattle or others, in France and most other countries. It's necessary to be able to run the rest of a farm, particularly in the typical small holdings of that area. Pulling said shepherds up on that just suggest little knowledge of the subject.
Yes farmers get compensated, but every attack/claim causes a lot of hassle. Wolves are here to stay I'd think (I hope) but you cannot just ignore the local circumstances.. It'll always be a difficult subject...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hells Bells, Well this Donkey (now labeled the "Donkey of Doom for my dogs benefit) obviously had a look of destruction in it's eyes as it headed towards my dog! I actually guess they (and would be the same for the dogs who guard the flocks) approach any potential threat to gauge the reaction. I picked up a little leaflet at the place we stayed which said the dogs often do this, and you just have to remain calm.
I actually think a return to ancient farming/shepherding methods a good thing. It's worth pointing out that domestic dogs kill far more sheep each year than wolves ever will, and add that to all the animals that we kill and dump because we think there is womething wrong with them, and all the one's we run over. It's sad to see humans thinking they have more right to exist somewhere than the animals that were there long before them. I think it's a testament to nature that the wolves are managing to re-colonise after the destruction and persecution man has waged on them until recently.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Kruisler wrote: |
Wolves weren't part of the ecosystem for decades, so no they weren't "part of the job". That's why there's compensation..
I'm not saying wolves re-appearing isn't a good thing, just that if your employment conditions were made harder without your consent you'd likely have something to say about it. If someone told you "that's how it used to be 80-100 yrs ago" that'd be little consolation to you.
Leaving flocks to graze unattended is common practice, be it sheep, cattle or others, in France and most other countries. It's necessary to be able to run the rest of a farm, particularly in the typical small holdings of that area. Pulling said shepherds up on that just suggest little knowledge of the subject.
Yes farmers get compensated, but every attack/claim causes a lot of hassle. Wolves are here to stay I'd think (I hope) but you cannot just ignore the local circumstances.. It'll always be a difficult subject... |
They were not for decades, for sure, but they were before and they are now. As pointed out the biggest threat to the flocks are most probably dogs and possibly diseases. So compensation is a good way to extract a bit of money from the local government. In the Alps, cheating the system has always been and will always remain be it on the tobacco, dairies (hence : reblocher), in the past and in the present the loss to predators and so on.
As for the herds left alone I would say it is mostly the case for sheep as bovines need to be milked every so often, especially in certian area where the produced cheese gets a certain type of AOC only if the milking took place on a daily basis (once again I have reblochon in minds for this case), which means you do have some sort of attendance in the alpages. Soemtimes sporadic during the milking process only, sometimes longer. The necessity of running various activities around the farm I do appreciate, but I am also very aware there are very few sheperds being trained nowadays. Pastoralism is unfortunately on the verge of near disappearance although some argue there is a light reapparition of interest in the younger agricultural generations. I believe there is a school in the southern Alps close to Sisteron or Valence trainning future sheperds.
It is indeed a difficult subject. The documentary I was referring to on Montagne T. V was mostly focusing on bear on the Pyrennees but was very informative when it came to losses and the evolution of the pastoral world.
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| Quote: |
| So compensation is a good way to extract a bit of money from the local government. |
If the compensation was easy and/or lucrative, farmers would not complain. I do agree that they'll have to live with wolves and bears, but it's not right either to act as if they just have to "get on with it". The fact is that for current farmers, predators are something "new".
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| As for the herds left alone I would say it is mostly the case for sheep as bovines need to be milked every so often, ...The necessity of running various activities around the farm I do appreciate, but I am also very aware there are very few sheperds being trained nowadays. Pastoralism is unfortunately on the verge of near disappearance |
My point about unattended herds was that it usually not by choice that said herds are left on their own. It's common practice (even with bovine on other areas..not all cattle is to bred for milk..) and as most small farms in France are family run, with no spare income to pay someone, they simply do not have the choice but do everything themselves. A significant factor on the decline of pastoralism you mention.
It's the big cereal farms that get all the subsidies, small holding farmers are barely making a living..
My grands-parents use to rear lambs (near the Pyrenees but in a predator free area) and the only time the herd would be attended would be during lamb season. There were only 2 of them, so one person with the herd full time means a lot of other jobs not being done..
All I'm saying is that while farmers are undoubtedly reluctant to the changes (and should not always be pandered to..), they're too often portrayed as the bad guys. It's a big change for them (and their livelihood), irrespective of what animals used to roam the alps in the old days..
I'm glad wolves and bears can be seen (not too close though..  ) in my home country, I hope they are there to stay, but everyone needs going down a peg or two.. Farmers and Ecologists..
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You know it makes sense.
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I totally agree Kruisler, middle ground between the two parties is what is needed here. Perhaps the subsidies/compensation would be better directed at prevention rather than the cure. Subsidies could be granted to farmers willing to use sheep dogs to guard the flocks for instance. One also has to take into account that with humans hunting anything that moves (especially in France and Spain), the wolfs natural prey is very hard to come by for them, forcing them to find alternative food sources. It does make you wonder how in the olden days when there were still thousands of wolves people managed to guard their livestock. So much for progress eh!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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davejsy, thank you - people always ask why there is a llama in a field with the sheep by our chalet (seems a bit random in a French alpine village) and I've never known the answer! 
The farmers next door to us use sheepdogs for both the sheep and the goats and have been training up two new puppies this year - they're so cute.
EDIT: just realised it was davidof who passed on the info about the llama!
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 2-11-12 18:50; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is that picture of a bear real?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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miranda, llama schmama. We've got yaks here. Chap who owns them got them mail order from Tibet.
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| Quote: |
There was a rather good documentary about that on Montagne T. V a month or two ago.
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Was it about three students who get stuck on a ski lift? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| miranda, llama schmama. We've got yaks here. Chap who owns them got them mail order from Tibet. |
Post and packaging must've been expensive.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Actually, yaks are not very happy below ~3000m. Instead, you should have something similar called a 'ghopkyo' or something like that.
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There are some alpaca in a field near me, beside Chichester Harbour. 2 foot above sea level. They have very sweet faces.
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I hope they have all four feet above see level 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Post and packaging must've been expensive.
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Cost a lot more than the yaks, apparently.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Mean while in Espana: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10380633/Wolves-return-to-mountains-outside-Madrid.html
Although they are only afforded protection South of the river Duero, this doesn't stop them being poisoned and killed in large numbers by people who think they know better though. . .
In France opinion becomes ever more divided, with the regional departments authorising killing of an increased number of wolves in relation to live stock attacks. It is debatable how many of these are actually carried out by wolves, or indeed if the wolves they are killing are responsible.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Idris, agreed. There are a whole group of relevant guardian and herding breeds and I can only imagine that having trained dogs of these types would make the shepherd's job easier.
I just don't need a third dog, but if i did, I could quite fancy a Beauceron.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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First we have bullying cows, now angry sheep. What next, an incandescent vole?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| musher wrote: |
| First we have bullying cows, now angry sheep. What next, an incandescent vole? |
Nah, a quick check on the Internet shows that the Snow Vole is still in deep hibernation....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Unfortunately most farmers don't think that they should have to suffer the inconvenience of having guard dogs, or having to keep an eye on their animals. They believe that there should be no wolves, and that their animals should be free to over graze every bit of wild land in peace.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Idris,
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In Chamonix a friend takes his Siberian Husky singing (Howling) in the woods. The Wolves have taken to replying in both the Berade Valley and above Argentiere. Very special, and very spooky to hear/see
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Oh, I'd love to see and hear that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pedantica, me too
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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A few years ago when son no 2 was 18, we bought him a walk with wolves for his 18th birthday present. He spent the whole day there walking with the wolves and photographing them. We dropped him at the sanctuary in the morning, and had our German Shepherd cross Meg with us. Meg behaved like I have never seen her do before or since. Normally she growls or barks in the presence of other dogs, but despite still being inside our car, on sighting an old wolf her hackles went up, but she was absolutely silent. She remained completely silent until we left, even when humans approached the car. The wolf may have been able to scent her, but was blind so could not see her. On returning from his visit, son no 2 was thoroughly washed until he no longer smelt of wolf.
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Hells Bells, did you ever read Call ot the Wild and White Fang? I loved those books when I was a kid. I might have to re-read them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman, of course I did, loved them then.
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Hells Bells, what a cool 18th Birthday present, something I'm sure he'll always remember.
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