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When do you need full off-piste kit?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Don't know whether thisshould be here or on Bend Ze Knees - feel free to move it if it's in the wrong place

At what point in one's skiing career does it become necessary to carry full transceiver/shovel/probe? As soon as you go the other side of the piste markers? Or not until you're in the back country all day?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
eng_ch,

Depends what you think full OP kit is...? I always carry the above as I know we will find something to do but then we will have scoped out the basic places where we will be for that day....otherwise, you spend too much time chopping and changing and getting there.

It would be very selfish just to carry a bleep as that means you can be found but not really contribute anything else apart from search. You can't dig which could be really crucial...!!

In my pack...including the above............for starters, will be a 1st aid kit, little tools and stuff to affect basic repairs, a survival bag, eats and drink, spare gloves and hat. whistle, and other less important stuff. If we need harness' then one of us.. the best climber..will have the rope. It depends on your commitment for the day.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
JT, the reason I ask is that we're just beginning to go "off-piste" with instructors, mostly between piste, through powder adn trees not particularly far from the piste but out of sight. We don't have beeps etc yet and I normally carry everything in my pockets because I don't really want anything affecting my balance, but it seems reasonable to think we'll carry on with this elementary exploration this season hence the question, at what point does the OP kit become necessary?
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Strictly speaking in Europe as soon as you're the wrong side of the markers as this won't be a controlled and patrolled area.

In practice, and I accept that some might disagree, off piste between pistes on a gentle gradient where there are clearly not objective hazards e.g. avalanche risk from above, glacier (hence crevasses) etc may be ok. There are however plenty examples of punters being caught and killed in avys when they haven't been that far off piste. An avalanche doesn't care whether you can still see the piste or not.

In North America provided you are inbounds usually avy control work will have been done - this is not absolutely cast iron, on rare occasions inbounds slides (or more likely slides commencing outside but encroaching inbounds) will occur. For this reason all closure notices should be carefully observed unlike the somewhat blithe attitude taken in Europe.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
eng_ch,

For these type of excusions then the Instructor will assume he will need to supply a bleep and do so. His/her problem will be...who digs/rescues them but it will be his calculated risk not to take you too far off...? You will know how serious he is with his kit inspection, if he just gives you a quick tester with the bleeps to see that they are working he is not exepcting any trouble. If he asks what you are carrying you probably all know you should all be prepared....!!!

I hate the bulkyness of carrying anything so it always starts in the pack.... googles and sunglass, cash, everything. For the first couple of guided op jaunts you shouldn't need to buy anything, but if you do, then enrol or get a lesson from someone who knows how to use them.
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Good question eng_ch, and some excellent repsonses. While you are working out what to do, please be re-assured that contrary to what your might think, a backpack does not affect you balance - at least it doesn't affect mine. I actually feel better with the backpack: I think it acts like a comfort blanket. But I also ski without, and notice no difference in balance.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Jonpim, that's good to know. I notice that ski backpacks also seem to be more slimline than conventional ones
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
This quote is from Henry Schniewind's website:
Quote:
Since Henry has been living in the French Alps (about 13 years), most of the accidents and resulting deaths that he has witnessed have occurred right next to the piste, due to ignorance. They could therefore have been avoided. If you are a good skier or snowboarder who mostly skis on the piste and you play around next to the piste, then you are a prime candidate for an accident. The same goes for climbers: statistics show that the typical victim of an avalanche is a male in his mid-late 20's, has a good level of knowledge about skiing, boarding or climbing, but very little knowledge about avalanches.
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rob@rar.org.uk, maybe so, but that would imply that everyone on-piste should carry the kit too. Is that realistic (cost-wise or expertise-wise)?
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eng_ch wrote:
rob@rar.org.uk, maybe so, but that would imply that everyone on-piste should carry the kit too. Is that realistic (cost-wise or expertise-wise)?


I think the quote speaks for itself. However, I won't preach because up until this year all my off-piste dabbling has been without any kit and without any understanding of how where avalanches occur and how to avoid them. This season I'll get some kit and will make an effort to address my lack of understanding as well.
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rob@rar.org.uk,
Thanks for that link I think I might go to the Braehead talks.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Another good reason for going with a local instructor in a new-to-you area is that they will know the typically prone slopes and will have seen the history and the outcome of major slides in the valley. A lot of guides will point out little things here and there as they are likley to spend all year up there. Local knowledge goes a long long way IMV.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Henry's quote includes "right next to the piste" which is what fatbob said earlier in this thread. One of the pictures Henry shows at his lectures is taken from beside the Creux piste just above where the Edelweiss leaves it and below the top of Campanules (Toviere area between Tignes and Val d'Isere). The picture shows a huge area of avalanche debris and around a hundred pisteurs etc using probes to hunt for someone. The edge of the avalanche is perhaps five yards from the piste.

Anyone travelling to Tignes Val d'Isere should look around the slopes near that area, including the slopes below the Tommeuses lift that provides one access to Toviere. These slopes are full of bowls and slopes that look tempting from the lift but would be difficult to get out of if they avalanched. Such areas are right beside the piste, easily visible from lifts and some visible from the pistes. But these areas are treacherous.

eng_ch, off piste skiing is great. Do try it but take lessons in both technique and mountain awareness. Ask the ski teacher about where to ski and where to not ski, ask why they teach you on one off piste slope and not on another. When you venture off piste on your own be very very careful. If you go to a resort where Henry Avalanche Talks are being presented then make time to attend.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Perhaps you could arrange with a guide to spend the last hour of the day practicing searching with a bleep and probe. Those skills take a lot of practice to build up. I'm no expert on avalanche awareness and I've spent many years climbing on snow, even on pistes I tend to always be on the lookout for signs of snow instability, it helps to build up knowledge and something may just catch your eye and prevent you from whizzing off the piste edge one day. As said above, a lot of people are hit just to the sides of the groomed stuff.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Scarpa wrote:
Perhaps you could arrange with a guide to spend the last hour of the day practicing searching with a bleep and probe.


That's a sensible idea, although I think there are cheaper ways of getting training. Resorts are beginning to offer free training - Les Arcs, for example, offered transciever training with piste patrollers every Tuesday and Thursday afternoons last season. For a list of resorts that offer some sort of training see Piste Hors.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks, Rob. Also read this article from January

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/off-piste-avalanches/

as someone said on Natives the other day "don't become a PisteHors news item next season". Quite right.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
davidof, thanks for the link - I knew I'd read a quote about being "a little bit pregnant" somewhere!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar.org.uk, We (that is SE based snowHead's) could, if we put our minds to it, see if we can hire/ borrow some transceivers and arrange an afternoons practise somewhere.

It won't be as good a snow (thinks, unless we could get to a beach somewhere), but it would be better than nothing ?
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ski, that's a great idea and I'd be very keen to join in, although I don't yet have a bleeper so I might have to borrow one from somewhere. I will be buying one soon (probably the Pulse as that seems to have good reviews for its ease of use), but it seems pointless to spend all that money then not practise with it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar.org.uk, I can get hold of two....wonder who else might be interested ?
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ski wrote:
rob@rar.org.uk, I can get hold of two....wonder who else might be interested ?


I'll post a new thread to see if there is enough interest to make it worth the effort of arranging an afternoon somewhere.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar.org.uk wrote:
ski wrote:
rob@rar.org.uk, I can get hold of two....wonder who else might be interested ?


I'll post a new thread to see if there is enough interest to make it worth the effort of arranging an afternoon somewhere.


Posted in this thread where hopefully lots of snowHeads will see the suggestion.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
rob@rar.org.uk, Thanks ! snowHead
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Is the question when to buy or when to carry it? It's an expensive outlay to pick up full kit, especially if there are two of you. I'll leave that to you to decide. But if you own it:

What's the point in NOT carrying it?

Bar the start of the season, when I'm skiing for conditioning and the base is yet to form, I pretty much always carry avy gear. Even when I'm just going piste cruising with guests. You just never know what might happen, when or where.

Not brilliant for the environment but at the cheap price of batteries I almost sleep in my beeper... Why wouldn't you wear it if you own it?

I learnt my lesson a few years ago when I went up the hill on my own, without avy gear, thinking I'd go and spend some time in the park. As I arrived at the top of the lift some of my buddies had decided to hike a beautiful colouir. I had to sit on a chairlift while I watched them getting beautiful tracks down an amazing face... gutted. I’ll never do that again.

You never know what's going to happen up in the mountains.

You get used to carrying it, and it doesn’t really interfere with my skiing. Although maybe that's why sometimes I'm in the back seat. Wink

I always have about my person:

Beeper, altimeter, cash, CC, insurance details, mobile (sometimes turned off). Oh and hip flask. (And a gum shield - not really needed Wink )

In the pack:

Shovel / Probe
First Aid kit incl space blanket & kendle mint cake
Heat Pads
Spare socks (can be used as emergency gloves too)
Down mitts
Neck whatsit
Spare layers (x2, base & fleece)
Knee brace
Tool kit basics incl zip ties, duct tape
Spare goggles
Sunglasses for hiking / skinning
Binoculars
Head torch
Spare bats (fit head torch & beeper)
Maps
Compass
Hydration bladder
Food incl 500ml aluminium flask
dSLR + 17-55mm + 80-300mm + spare batts, filters, flash etc
Whistle
Gecko Dude (travel companion)
Marble (gift to Ullr)

When going "into the back country" as you put it. It may also include:

40m rope
Harness + dangly bits
Skins
Ice Axe
Snow saw

Now that's a heavy pack... It all goes in a 30L. If skiing inbounds with guests then the top list goes in an 18L pack (without the camera). Yes, I'm a self-confessed gear head. On a normal ski day Mrs P will carry the following in a 12L pack:

Shovel
Probe
Basic First Aid
Multi tool
Altimeter
Food
Hydration bladder
Spare layer

I’d say this was the minimum for anyone that skis ANY off piste.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
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parlor, Good list. snowHead

Mrs Ski and me *always* ski with our avy kit. The reason is that we don't know when we leave in the morning what we'll be doing....so we carry our stuff just in case. We don't find the extra weight affects our skiing .. much.

Remember tho, that transceivers, shovels, probes etc don't keep you safe - not being caught in an avalanche does wink
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ski wrote:
Remember tho, that transceivers, shovels, probes etc don't keep you safe - not being caught in an avalanche does wink


I'll be in London until mid Novemember, if you want to have a play with a Mamut Barryvox or an F1 let me know, especially if you all manage to meet sometime.

Otherwise for Verbier people, we have perfect garden to practise in... you're always welcome snowHead
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
parlor, very comprehensive! The question is when to buy really. Our accompanied off-piste so far hasn't been on steep pitches - no more than a blue - but I'm well aware of the various avy's that have come down onto the piste. But as you say, a basic kit for 2 people and you're looking at 700 squid plus it seems. Once you have it you might as well wear it - but it is a big outlay.

One of our weeks next season will be in Val D'Isere so Henry's talk is deffo on my list of things to do
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
eng_ch, Don't want to steal parlor, 's thunder, but the big expense is the transciever - everything else is not so bad. So you could purchase (say) shovel this year, probe the next, and make up the balance by renting.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
eng_ch, I thought it might be. The convienience of owning your own gear really makes it worth it.

To try and save yourself a few pounds you could try this, wait until you are skiing lots of off piste in very deep powder until you get probes. Should save you 120-150ChF (£60ish) X2. In most cases when you are using a probe, you're too late. (Yes, I know they *can* be very good for pin pointing at the final stages of a search etc).

For shovels I found the cheapest are the plastic bladed Ortovox, in Aosta, Italy, I've seen them for just 35E. I prefer metal bladed to be honest, Black Diamond appear to be the cheapest. There are very cheap options but they tend to be very heavy (ex-military). Although in a couple of Swiss petrol stations in and around the mountains you can buy a very sturdy plastic bladed shovel for around 15ChF! They are a little bulky though but strong, cheap and large volume blades.

You could even rely on those funny snow scoop things... I'm sure someone can give more details, they're basically just a plastic blade with two holes for handles.

I will be advising anyone in the market for a beeper for the next two years to get an F1 (if you can use them, otherwise either Barryvox or DTS) now and then replace in two years with one of the new 3D searching, all dancing versions.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
parlor, thanks for that. BTW can you remind me of the name of the Swiss online retailer down your way that specialises in back country stuff (which is why I forgot their name)? Tele sth or other? Been trying to remember it for days!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I found buying them all together with a pack was a better deal, I got 6 of us together and got a little more off, I bought from facewest, they have a few packages put together:

http://www.facewest.co.uk/pp/ski/packages.htm

Regards,

Greg
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
eng_ch, sorry, don't know it... or can't think of it... err...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
parlor wrote:


For shovels I found the cheapest are the plastic bladed Ortovox, in Aosta, Italy, I've seen them for just 35E. I prefer metal bladed to be honest, Black Diamond appear to be the cheapest. There are very cheap options but they tend to be very heavy (ex-military). Although in a couple of Swiss petrol stations in and around the mountains you can buy a very sturdy plastic bladed shovel for around 15ChF! They are a little bulky though but strong, cheap and large volume blades.


Though if you've ever skied over (or into! rolling eyes )avy debris you'll have realised that a plastic shovel is only just better than nothing. Also if you have to do any serious digging you'll appreciate one with a longer (telescopic) handle, I found the T topped ones work best for me.
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yes - i'd say it's worth paying the money and getting the best kit first time round. if you buy cheap shovels and probes, you'll end up getting p'ed off with them and buying good ones before long

my top tip for getting a cheap transceiver is to buy masses of other kit at the cham3s stores and put it all on your loyalty card. you can then pick up a bleeper for about 40 quid with the discount. a bargain in the long run, i am sure Puzzled
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Arno wrote:
the cham3s stores


???
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sheesh some people like things handed on a plate:

www.cham3s.com
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
stuarth wrote:
parlor wrote:
I prefer metal bladed to be honest, Black Diamond appear to be the cheapest.


Though if you've ever skied over (or into! rolling eyes )avy debris you'll have realised that a plastic shovel is only just better than nothing. Also if you have to do any serious digging you'll appreciate one with a longer (telescopic) handle, I found the T topped ones work best for me.


Perhaps I should have explained why. Thanks stuarth.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Read some study somewhere recently that endorsed the claim that plastic/lexan shovels were a disaster in real avy digging conditions - the memorable quote was something like "if my skiing buddy turns up with a plastic shovel I'll make him swap it with my metal bladed one if he feels so good about it" wink
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fatbob, kindof how I feel when I ski with some people... I might buy an S1 next year and then swap with my ski buddies so they can use it to find me quicker!!
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eng_ch,

One more here for a metal blade and if you are carrying a reasonable and well equipped load the you'll need 20 ltrs.

If you carry the minimum for a day trip as listed by parlor, then you can look at the 11ltr packs. Personally, I think it would be a squeeze.

A half empty pack sits better than a full to the brim pack for me....
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