 Poster: A snowHead
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| Alan Craggs wrote: |
Any idea how many skiers and boarders there actually are in the world David :~/ (rounded to the nearest thousand will do :wink: )
Maybe just the UK will do to start..... |
390 million skier visits per year according to a report by AJ.Lazard and something like 65 million skiers according to a study by N.Cockerell. The market in Europe is declining but there is big growth in areas like China.
Mintel compile figures for the UK, they tend to be less than the ski industry figures, probably around 1 million skiers, although this figure seems to have risen a lot recently whereas the number of skiers has dropped in the rest of Europe. This may simply reflect the UK's growing affluence compare to say France and Germany.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks davidof.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But if (to use Davidof's example), France and Germany are in active decline in terms of skier numbers, then the suggestion is that they are becoming less affluent. Is that the case? Or is it also likely that the population is ageing with less children being born?
Obviously if that is the case, then future generations will bear a larger burden in terms of supporting that ageing population, thus providing perhaps considerably less income for ski resorts.
I would have thought that low cost airlines would have had a fair impact on the accessibility of skiing (both pysical and financial) for many in the UK, which may explain part of the growth along with the increase in affluence.
Sorry, off topic a little 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Mark Hunter, I don't think a decline in French skier numbers can be directly related to a decline in affluence. Too many other factors - alternative activities, less 'classe de neige' trips from school areas far from the mountains mean less children introduced to the sport and returning to it as adults, for example.
It's not really accurate to talk about a decline in affluence here either, although comparatively speaking, the rate of increase is less than in the UK at the present time.
How do you measure affluence anyway? If a huge chunk of net salary goes on a massive mortgage, it can hardly be calculated simply on the strength of gross income. Or indeed on owning a property with an enormous value - which is only really useful if you are moving to the Outer Hebrides, and don't want to buy nearby where prices are similarly inflated!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, alternative activities I can see, but why would schools operate less 'class de neige' trips? France has had it's share of World beating champions over fairly recent years, so I'd have imagined that would have had a positive effect on yongsters skiing, no?
I'm not sure how affluence is measured. Consumer spending? Most of that is done on credit which is worryingly high ATM.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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As far as the drop in term-time school trips is concerned, it's mainly down to cost, with alternative school activity holidays becoming more popular as well. For example in the Haute Savoie between 1994 and 1999 there was an 18% fall in the numbers of minors on group-organised trips of this type. Other areas saw smaller decreases over the same period, but the overall trend is clear. In the Savoie itself this has accelerated between 1998 and 2001. 23% less in total number of class trips, 31% less pupils. The drop in numbers stems entirely from a fall in numbers from outside the department - in the Savoie itself, numbers remain stable.
http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/savoie/ascd/telecharger/memo_classes.pdf
Inevitably this will have a knock-on effect with smaller numbers of children who can ski or board when they become adults, and therefore less inclined to take the plunge and go on a winter sports holiday. The trend is of sufficient concern to the authorities to have spawned several reports on the subject... particularly as overall visitor numbers have been stagnating recently (all age groups).
The percentage of all French taking a long-stay winter sports holiday has fallen from 8.6% to 7.1%. Short-stay has remained stable at 1.8%. Seaside occupancy figures show a fall too - it seems that more French are heading for the cities and the countryside.
http://www.senat.fr/rap/r02-015-1/r02-015-182.html
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| PG wrote: |
| Too many other factors - alternative activities |
It is amazing the range of sports that are practised in France. Ok they may not have extreme ironing but they seem to have extreme everything else.
Regarding affluence I was trying to understand why UK figures have grown 30% since the late 1990s according to the snippets from the Mintel surveys I've seen (maybe DG has the full surveys?) from around 770,000 skiers to well over 1 million whereas skier (including snowboarders etc) in France have stagnated and declined, albeit from a high figure of around 5 million.
As you have said cheap flights and direct Eurostar trains are another factor.
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PG, out of curiosity, are you aware of any top skiers that have come from the 'classe de neige' trips that originated from schools not within easy reach of the Alps?
Also, have disproportionate cost increases been the reason for the decline, or the tightening of budgets that have provided the opportunities in the past. I've always considered France's attitude to sport one to be upheld as far as young people are concerned.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mark Hunter,
| Quote: |
| are you aware of any top skiers that have come from the 'classe de neige' trips that originated from schools not within easy reach of the Alps? |
(Severe risk of going OT again! Oh well, here goes....)
Not right at the very highest level (ie World Cup competitors), although there are a few national team members that start off that way - then move to the Alps when relatively young. When you think that 99% of all the Alps-based skiers don't make it anywhere close to that standard, it's virtually impossible for city-dwellers etc to make the breakthrough.
There are two racing circuits in France, both under the auspices of the FFS - one for members of alpine clubs (ie resort-based), one for non-resort dwellers (known as citadins). There is a national 'citadin' team, national and international competitions, etc. The distinction is a bit blurred though. For example a club in Gap, just 30 minutes from the slopes in Orcières or Les Orres, can join either circuit - or even both...
Still, it depends what you mean by top - there are plenty of excellent skiers at the top level of the citadin circuit. Perhaps a couple of seconds slower in a GS than a top level alpine skier. Many ESF instructors etc. My daughter started off with a citadin club (with a 3 hour drive to the slopes), staying with them for 3 years, before changing to the alpine race circuit.
Citadin clubs, some with very big memberships, some tiny, based all over France, miles from the snow - Brittany, Paris, Marseille, you name it. The ones nearest to the snow make weekend trips to the resorts every Sunday through the season, others have to make do with a couple of holiday trips each year. It's likely that a lot of these mainly consist of skiers who started off in the 'classe de neige'.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FascinatingPG, and thanks. It makes sense to have a 2 tiered system, although I suppose only the French would put something like that into practice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mark Hunter, that's the same in Italy. As an example, Alberto Tomba was classified, to use PG notation, a "citadin". Althouhgt his father put tons of ££££ (that's Lire not Pound Sterlings..the two shared the same symbol...being both called Lira-Italiana and Lira-Sterlina ,that's yours, when the ITL were still around) into his "development" as a skier in Cortina. So the short version is, either a "citadin" has lots of money (or wins a scholarship), or he/she is cut off from access to the international team.
Money is also a reason why most of Italian racers (both boys and girls) of international "fame" belongs to either the Army or Police or Carabinieri (again Tomba was a Carabiniere, hence a policeman) or Forest service or Guardia di Finanza (all military or paramilitary organizations, founded by the State, which means ultimately by the taxpayers) sport division...
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Matteo, That's one currency I'm not sad to see the back of.. sorry!. I'm sure I've been had in unofficial exchange places on more than one occasion... just one zero more or less, and you're well out of poecket.
When I lived there many years ago, I remember taxi drivers used to give small change in sweets on occasions .... threw me completely when it first happened!
The Italian Federation has been well financed (although I understand less so over the past two or three years?) It's always striking just how well equipped the youngsters from Italian teams are, both in terms of gear and race clothing, when you see them on the glacier at Deux Alpes in the summer - compared to the French.
Tomba - some skier. As you say the only way kids who live away from the resorts can succeed is through the commitment of their parents. I can think of a few UK-resident British youngsters whose parents spend a fortune on getting them to the Alps at every available opportunity, and sacrifice a lot of their own time as well. For one 12 year old in particular I know it's worked so far, he is right up there with the best French skiers of his age category at the moment.
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You know it makes sense.
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I can only refer to anecdotal evidence, but around here everyone has noticed that there are less French coming for a fortnight now, and that they definitely seem to have less disposable income.
In consequence the British are becoming much more popular! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, [OT] you may have missed it, but there's a post with a question for you here...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks PG 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dan, Baby boomers are having kids of our own. Kids = no money = very expensive to go on holiday = much less skiing. I used to do two weeks a year but recently can only manage 3.5 days a year if I'm lucky
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FAQ
The baby boom generation is now in full swing - in terms of us lot now with money to spend. And we are going to be around for a few years (20+) with sliding holidays to be had. After that (if there is still snow around 
