 Poster: A snowHead
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Someone recently put forward that Vail are masters of enshittification by design. It's a feature not a bug. They recognise that skiing is a climate limited sport so they may not be around say in 30 years. So in the meantime rinse everyone as thoroughly as they can.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
Witness the extreme crowding in Vail owned resorts.
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I've been 4 times to Vail-owned resorts, in the last 2 yrs. All trips at popular weekends late Jan-mid Feb. Never witnessed even moderate, let alone extreme overcrowding. The press reports of extreme crowding generally seem to refer to where there has been only limited lift opening, either because of strikes, or because of poor snow conditions.
I'm a happy Epic pass user - the pricing model enables a wide variety of skiing around the world, which works well for me. It also enables a reasonably-priced week of skiing in a single resort for those who buy the pass in advance. Adding European resorts onto the pass has shifted the economics a lot for me and made the annual pass worthwhile which in turn has materially reduced my cost of skiing in the US.
Where the model falls down for me is that I have a lot of late-notice travel, so if I don't buy an Epic pass in advance, I either have to pay $250+/day, or I don't ski. I also worry that it increases the entry cost for new skiers but it looks like Vail is recognising that with lower-priced entry level passes for next season.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Lower price passes aka handouts for rich kids.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am kind of interested what Epic pass plans / buisness case is for Europe
Andermatt & Crans Montana the only resorts with unlimited access.
The people that want to ski just those two a very small part of the venn diagram.
Taking a look at website there are others euro resorts on the list...
But all of them have restrictions (generally 4-5 days limit) and black outs.
Surely for Europeans a local season pass is better value ?
For example the snow card tyrol / magic pass / 3-valley / verbier season pass etc.
All cost less with unlimited access.
Are they just adding euro resorts as an add on for rich Americans who want to tag on a weeks vacation in Europe?
https://www.epicpass.com/regions/europe.aspx
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Are they just adding euro resorts as an add on for rich Americans who want to tag on a weeks vacation in Europe?
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Certainly Ikon adding Chamonix seems to have massively increased our American visitors (I have no data to back up that assertion, just observation). And it's not even for a weeks' trip - have spoken to a few parties of (usually younger) 'merkins who flew over for a long weekend.
On the CM "early" closure, I note that e.g. Courmayeur closed on the 6th. It's all down to the early Easter.
So blame the (or one of the) Popes 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I meet an American kid / student from London who was using his 2 free days from Indy Pass at Glencoe.
Not many making use of that deal 
He was having a great time (timed his trip perfectly / snow was great).
Think he normally skied at small family resort on east coast of US in Vermont.
https://www.indyskipass.com/our-resorts/glencoe-mountain-resort
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CM is south facing and it has been really warm this week, did Vail really make the wrong decision?
I can watch the snow shrinking on the half hour updates of the webcams for my home resort.
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@under a new name, After all they have only had 2026 years to pin the tail on the donkey and fix the date of Easter. I mean his birthday is fixed so why can't his nailing to the cross etc be fixed as well!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I am kind of interested what Epic pass plans / buisness case is for Europe
Andermatt & Crans Montana the only resorts with unlimited access.
The people that want to ski just those two a very small part of the venn diagram.
Taking a look at website there are others euro resorts on the list...
But all of them have restrictions (generally 4-5 days limit) and black outs.
Surely for Europeans a local season pass is better value ?
For example the snow card tyrol / magic pass / 3-valley / verbier season pass etc.
All cost less with unlimited access.
Are they just adding euro resorts as an add on for rich Americans who want to tag on a weeks vacation in Europe?
https://www.epicpass.com/regions/europe.aspx
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Definitely seeing a lot more Americans over here this season and it is not hard to understand why.
After a visit to the Alps it becomes pretty obvious how limited the US model is. Small disconnected resorts dressed up as “world class”, huge lift lines on a powder day, and then you are rinsed for $30 burgers and a beer like it is some kind of luxury experience.
Then you come to the Alps and realise what skiing is actually supposed to be. Proper mountains, massive linked terrain, real vertical, charming mountain towns, lunches that are actually worth sitting down for etc etc
Epic in Europe is not aimed at Europeans. It is basically a sampler platter for Americans before they fully realise they have been paying premium prices for a pretty average product back home
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
Epic in Europe is not aimed at Europeans. It is basically a sampler platter for Americans before they fully realise they have been paying premium prices for a pretty average product back home |
I'm not so sure - if this was the logic, then signing up a few big name resorts (Cham, Verbier, 3V) would be enough. But they're adding Solden and Mayrhofen (how many Americans will have heard of them?) - even Andermatt and CM aren't exactly iconic premier league resorts. I think the plan is a global network of resorts that massively expands the market for Epic passes. For anyone in Europe who likes to sample a wide variety of resorts across multiple countries, Epic/Ikon is potentially a great option. A bit like Merlin entertainments which has been hugely successful in turning disparate day-out experiences, into a broad platform. Last year I bought a Chamonix season pass; this year I bought an Epic instead, and just day tickets for Cham.
And on the US vs Europe debate - it can be polarised either way. Mont Fort lift line on a powder day isn't exactly a picnic either, and if you're not in the Grand Montets line at 8am you'll probably have to hike to get first tracks. I find North American skiing is a very different experience for many reasons; some better, some worse. There's plenty to balance the argument in either direction, but overall it's still sliding down a mountain on some plastic-coated planks, having fun on the way.
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@Haggis_Trap, In the Arlberg the use of the pass is restricted to those staying at a few (expensive) hotels. In those places without that restriction I would assume the Tourist Office / Lift Company has made a calculation that the additional all round income the visitors will bring in will more than cover whatever deal they have made over giving out lift passes (I think only up to 5 days). I would assume the typical US based visitor with an Epic pass will have money to spend (accommodation, kit hire & sale, restaurants) and be on a short trip, doubt there will be many ski bum types on a tight budget.
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You know it makes sense.
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@snowdave, they absolutely tried to get the A list resorts first and got knocked back so now it is a case of taking what they can get.
And to be honest they do not really need the big names. Most US skiers are not sitting there comparing Verbier versus Mayrhofen versus Sölden. For a lot of them anything in Switzerland or Austria is already in the category of “this is so awesome man”.
Epic is not selling nuance, it is selling the idea of skiing in Europe. Once you are on the ground the differences between resorts matter a lot more to us than they do to someone flying in for a week.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BobinCH wrote: |
Epic in Europe is not aimed at Europeans. It is basically a sampler platter for Americans before they fully realise they have been paying premium prices for a pretty average product back home |
Nice troll
Though it does seem that way.
| snowdave wrote: |
I'm not so sure - if this was the logic, then signing up a few big name resorts (Cham, Verbier, 3V) would be enough. But they're adding Solden and Mayrhofen (how many Americans will have heard of them?) |
The big names (Cham, Verbier, 3V) all have 4-5 day limit with Epic / Ikon.
Also : Solden and Mayrhofen are very much A-league resorts.
| snowdave wrote: |
| - even Andermatt and CM aren't exactly iconic premier league resorts. |
Those are the only two euro resorts that Vail / Epic own and operate.
| snowdave wrote: |
| For anyone in Europe who likes to sample a wide variety of resorts across multiple countries, Epic/Ikon is potentially a great option. |
Magic Pass / Tyrol snow card / Cham season ticket all cheaper though without limitations.
Epic a strange season pass choice for european.
| snowdave wrote: |
| And on the US vs Europe debate - it can be polarised either way. |
Sure - some great skiing in North America.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 10-04-26 14:03; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowdave wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Witness the extreme crowding in Vail owned resorts.
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I've been 4 times to Vail-owned resorts, in the last 2 yrs. All trips at popular weekends late Jan-mid Feb. Never witnessed even moderate, let alone extreme overcrowding. The press reports of extreme crowding generally seem to refer to where there has been only limited lift opening, either because of strikes, or because of poor snow conditions.
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Well you’ve been lucky, and it depends what you mean. The skiing is generally not overcrowded, but the lift lines can be really bad, even outside holidays. My last trip to Vail, we frequently spent >10 mins in lift lines, and almost never got straight onto a lift. No closures, no strikes, not a powder day, not a weekend.
And don’t even get me started on whistler.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The big advantage (at least for me) of n American resorts is the in bounds off piste. Being able to just ski anything solo, without the need for avalanche consideration, and carrying a bag full of equipment is worth paying a premium for alone. Also I wouldn't say the terrain at places like whistler, kicking horse, JH, squaw etc. isn't really good.
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And don’t even get me started on whistler.
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Yes because before Vail took over there were never any lift queues I was there the year before Vail and once queued over 1hr for a lift - holidays + huge powder day + alpine closed for avalanche danger. It happens, but i did over 100 days there that season so know what an outlier that was - 95% of the time you just walked straight onto lifts.
Most of my long time whistler friends view is that post Vail the village is busier but the new arrivals aren't skiing a lot and/or the better terrain. They are happy about cheaper passes (cost actually dropped after epic pass was introduced compared to season before). A lot of them have also done trips to other epic resorts (which they never did before as was hard to justify paying for tickets when you already have a season pass). Also view is that Vail have done a reasonable job upgrading some lifts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rjs wrote: |
CM is south facing and it has been really warm this week, did Vail really make the wrong decision?
I can watch the snow shrinking on the half hour updates of the webcams for my home resort. |
It doesn't matter, even if it's the right decision many will still view it as wrong because it's Vail. And because apparently they think every other non Vail resort is run just for skier enjoyment and decisions are not made based on profits and losses.
Why is nobody complaining about Courmayeur closing on the same date?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| turbosmurf wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Witness the extreme crowding in Vail owned resorts.
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I've been 4 times to Vail-owned resorts, in the last 2 yrs. All trips at popular weekends late Jan-mid Feb. Never witnessed even moderate, let alone extreme overcrowding. The press reports of extreme crowding generally seem to refer to where there has been only limited lift opening, either because of strikes, or because of poor snow conditions.
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Well you’ve been lucky, and it depends what you mean. The skiing is generally not overcrowded, but the lift lines can be really bad, even outside holidays. My last trip to Vail, we frequently spent >10 mins in lift lines, and almost never got straight onto a lift. No closures, no strikes, not a powder day, not a weekend. |
I had one wait of 5-10mins, and nothing else more than 2 mins in Vail on weekends in early Feb this year and last. As with European resorts, it seems to be partly about picking the right lifts at the right times; there were longer queues but I skied past them or took alternative routes.
One clear difference to me, is the ratio of runs:lifts, which means that when the lifts are running at full capacity, the runs they serve can still remain quiet. I've skied runs at Vail and Tahoe, top-bottom, and not seen another skier - despite full chairs going back up to the top.
Like I said, there are puts and takes, and the experience is different but not "bad" per se. Apart from being fined for ducking the boundary rope - I hope that doesn't arrive in Cham!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
The big advantage (at least for me) of n American resorts is the in bounds off piste. Being able to just ski anything solo, without the need for avalanche consideration, and carrying a bag full of equipment is worth paying a premium for alone. Also I wouldn't say the terrain at places like whistler, kicking horse, JH, squaw etc. isn't really good.
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Yeah, let’s just dynamite the Alps and turn it into a fully controlled, in bounds playground.
Great model if you don’t want to carry a pack or make decisions.
In the Alps you get scale, variety, and freedom, but you’re expected to bring a bit of judgement with you as well.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Witness the extreme crowding in Vail owned resorts.
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I've been 4 times to Vail-owned resorts, in the last 2 yrs. All trips at popular weekends late Jan-mid Feb. Never witnessed even moderate, let alone extreme overcrowding.
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that’s considered “dead” of winter, because it’s “between holidays” (1 in mid-Jan & 1 in mid-Feb)! Not “popular weekend” as you thought!
So your sample size of one under misconceptions doesn’t mean much.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I am kind of interested what Epic pass plans / buisness case is for Europe
Andermatt & Crans Montana the only resorts with unlimited access.
The people that want to ski just those two a very small part of the venn diagram.
Taking a look at website there are others euro resorts on the list...
But all of them have restrictions (generally 4-5 days limit) and black outs.
Surely for Europeans a local season pass is better value ?
For example the snow card tyrol / magic pass / 3-valley / verbier season pass etc.
All cost less with unlimited access.
Are they just adding euro resorts as an add on for rich Americans who want to tag on a weeks vacation in Europe?
https://www.epicpass.com/regions/europe.aspx
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You're forgetting the (much smaller number of) Aussies who have a high % of Epic/iKON resorts. For them doing a European tour is a great add on as it's their summer & the kids are on their school/Uni summer break.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The extension to the Epic Pass bring it into contention for Euros who want a few weeks of skiing in different Euro locations. You can basically do 3 weeks in Austria ( without Arlberg which might as well not be on unless you really want to be paying for 5* hotels), a week in Italy and one in 3V before you even get to Verbier and unlimited Andermatt and Crans Montana. Obviously it will still be of most interest to those that fancy a trip to US/ Canada as well.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| The extension to the Epic Pass bring it into contention for Euros who want a few weeks of skiing in different Euro locations. You can basically do 3 weeks in Austria ( without Arlberg which might as well not be on unless you really want to be paying for 5* hotels), a week in Italy and one in 3V before you even get to Verbier and unlimited Andermatt and Crans Montana. Obviously it will still be of most interest to those that fancy a trip to US/ Canada as well. |
True ... It may appeal to some euros doing multiple weeks in different location
Though for same price (1000 euros) you could get Tyrol ski card giving unlimited access to basically all of Western Austria for 8 months.including glaciers.
| Kenzie wrote: |
You're forgetting the (much smaller number of) Aussies who have a high % of Epic/iKON resorts. For them doing a European tour is a great add on as it's their summer & the kids are on their school/Uni summer break. |
Forgot about that.
Similar principle to holidaying Amercians
Weird concept having a season pass that encourages trans Atlantic/ global travel. However it seems to be popular / expanding
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 10-04-26 20:38; edited 4 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Witness the extreme crowding in Vail owned resorts.
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I've been 4 times to Vail-owned resorts, in the last 2 yrs. All trips at popular weekends late Jan-mid Feb. Never witnessed even moderate, let alone extreme overcrowding.
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that’s considered “dead” of winter, because it’s “between holidays” (1 in mid-Jan & 1 in mid-Feb)! Not “popular weekend” as you thought!
So your sample size of one under misconceptions doesn’t mean much. |
So is mid-Feb a popular weekend or not...? You say it is, and it isn't in subsequent sentences. Hard to follow your logic here.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
Witness the extreme crowding in Vail owned resorts.
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I've been 4 times to Vail-owned resorts, in the last 2 yrs. All trips at popular weekends late Jan-mid Feb. Never witnessed even moderate, let alone extreme overcrowding.
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that’s considered “dead” of winter, because it’s “between holidays” (1 in mid-Jan & 1 in mid-Feb)! Not “popular weekend” as you thought!
So your sample size of one under misconceptions doesn’t mean much. |
So is mid-Feb a popular weekend or not...? You say it is, and it isn't in subsequent sentences. Hard to follow your logic here. |
It’s the 3rd weekend of Feb, which can fall in “mid-Feb” or “late” on specific year.
It’s not for me to explain to you the “logic”. You were the one who is unclear. If you’re going to make a big deal of your experience during your visit there, you should be able to give specific detail as to which weekend it was you were there.
If you trip covered that “popular” holiday weekend, it’s blackout on the base pass! You would have needed a full pass which cost a few hundred extra per person.
So either you paid several hundred extra for that privilege, or not! You don’t rely on someone on the internet to tell you so. Your bank account would had made a strong mark.
Given you didn’t seem to know the difference, I’m inclined to believe you were NOT skiing those weekends, or you would have been pretty sure of the extra cost when buying the pass. Therefore, your experience is irrelevant to the discussion.
But if you did paid for the extra and skiing the 3rd weekend of Feb, only then, you have a point to make.go ahead to make that clear!
Time for you to present your “logic”
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 11-04-26 18:16; edited 3 times in total
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
The big advantage (at least for me) of n American resorts is the in bounds off piste. Being able to just ski anything solo, without the need for avalanche consideration, and carrying a bag full of equipment is worth paying a premium for alone. Also I wouldn't say the terrain at places like whistler, kicking horse, JH, squaw etc. isn't really good.
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Yeah, let’s just dynamite the Alps and turn it into a fully controlled, in bounds playground.
Great model if you don’t want to carry a pack or make decisions.
In the Alps you get scale, variety, and freedom, but you’re expected to bring a bit of judgement with you as well. |
The irony being the Alps is so overdeveloped compared to vast areas of n America where there is still wilderness.
There have been so many deaths in Europe this year. Clearly the demand for offpiste skiing outstrips the ability of many to "carry a pack and make decisions"! So why not make some controlled areas where people can learn/practice safely? It's not like you still wouldn't have terrain outside the boundaries for those wanting a backcountry experience.
Like I say I'm happy to pay a premium for avalanche controlled off-piste, and I say this as someone that predominantly only backcountry ski tours in more remote places these days. So it's not like I'm incapable of "carrying a pack and making decisions".
I'm not really sure where the idea of N America having less "freedom" comes from. Yes, there are rules in places, but there's also rules in the Alps. I was looking at doing TdMB and pretty much gave up as seem to need refuge reservations months in advance and wild camping is "banned" (or at least so complicated as to what is illegal, what is "tolerated", and where local municipalities have specific restrictions I kind of gave up with the idea).
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sat 11-04-26 6:10; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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@snowdave, it's the Vail paradox. They have apparently made skiing unaffordable while also making resorts too busy
Find a photo on the busiest day (holiday weekend, big powder day, lots of lifts closed due to avalanche risk etc.) and slam Vail. Even though it was pretty much the same pre-epic pass. It's also the same in non-epic resorts. But of course easier to just blame Vail. (See also lack of affordable housing in resorts, overpriced food on the mountain etc. which were all issues before epic and all issues in lots of non-vail resorts.
@abc does make a good point though, that people visiting resorts massively over-value there limited experiences there. You really need to do a season somewhere to see it at its best and worst. Which is why I'll take my whistler friends who have been living there for seasons (pre and post Vail) views a lot more seriously than people that just did a week's trip there.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| In the Alps you get scale, variety, and freedom, but you’re expected to bring a bit of judgement with you as well. |
There’s plenty of variety in North America, if not the scale.
As for “freedom”, I’m not sure how you define it when it pertains to skiing outside of the resort. I would argue there’re far more area in north America you can go touring. In fact, the only “freedom” lacking in north America is the availability of guides in area of low demand.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
So why not make some controlled areas where people can learn/practice safely? It's not like you still wouldn't have terrain outside the boundaries for those wanting a backcountry experience.
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What is an itinerary?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@BobinCH, or, indeed, what is the Grands Montets, for example (or really anywhere else in Chamonix valley?) or, indeed^2 anywhere around Verbier? (f'rinstance)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| @snowdave, it's the Vail paradox. They have apparently made skiing unaffordable while also making resorts too busy |
I don't see a paradox here?
Buy small resorts and move price bracket up for day/weekend local tickets -> customer chooses to buy epic / ikon pass as its better value -> customer thinks: oh I've got free week I'lll visit big name resort -> Small low price resorts get more expensive whilst average consumer gets driven to larger higher revenue resort.
Reosrts getting called out for being to busy are the big name resorts.
Resorts getting called out for being too expensive are the smaller weekend local resorts closer to home.
That is their exact business model.
No judgement here. It is a good business model that has worked well for them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| afterski wrote: |
| It is a good business model that has worked well for them. |
Agree. Like any business model, it’s purpose is to benefit the corporation. There will always be winners and losers from the customer base. So some would moan while others be gleeful.
Ski resort as a business is a somewhat special business. It’s location specific. You can’t just open up a competition down the road. So in essence, it’s a local monopoly. And in many people’s view, it should be regulated as such. In Vail’s early days, the state of Colorado had indeed block their purchase of A-basin, citing the creation of local monopoly. That said, I suspect there’re enough ski resorts in close proximity in the Alps there’s no such concern?
Judging from what happened in several of local scene in the US, I’d say the CM locals should raise their moan to as high a level as they can manage. Vail did improve their operation in some local mountains after sufficient political pressure. So CM locals may eventually get to have their cake and eat it too. But only if they work to get it.
In the mean time, the noise they make will result in increased resistance when they try to buy other resorts. Like this:
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Lesson to aggrieved locals - don't let the owners of resorts sell out to companies like Vail if you don't want the consequences. Unfortunately that might mean you raising rather a lot of your own funds as a Co-op if the original owners are determined to cash out. |
When your local economy is heavily dependent on one business, you should indeed pay attention to when that business changes hands.
There will always be fanboys whose interest happen to be the one the corporation is prioritizing, and they’ll sing their praises as loud as they care too. But the interest of locals and the interests of transients aren’t always the same. So take the moaning and singsongs from both sides with a grain of salt.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
So why not make some controlled areas where people can learn/practice safely? It's not like you still wouldn't have terrain outside the boundaries for those wanting a backcountry experience.
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What is an itinerary? |
Ime it's an ungroomed piste, that's usually ice and or moguls Hardly a freeride playground.
Perhaps verbier does a better job than some other places, but let's not pretend the average euro resorts are offering avy controlled terrain like you get in n America. Squaw fingers, Ozone at kicking horse, delirium dive at Sunshine, gemstone bowls at whistler etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I agree with who referenced Wayback machine, I'm almost certain when I checked 2 months ago the closing date was 19th, same as Andermatt (gemstock) if this is the case, then their claim that they announced the early closure date last year amounts to corporate fraud
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
So why not make some controlled areas where people can learn/practice safely? It's not like you still wouldn't have terrain outside the boundaries for those wanting a backcountry experience.
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What is an itinerary? |
Ime it's an ungroomed piste, that's usually ice and or moguls Hardly a freeride playground. Perhaps verbier does a better job than some other places, but let's not pretend the average euro resorts are offering avy controlled terrain like you get in n America. Squaw fingers, Ozone at kicking horse, delirium dive at Sunshine, gemstone bowls at whistler etc. |
Um, I think it's just different things, and I'm all in favour of difference.
I was in Verbier last season, and very good it was too. At that time the Tortin itinerary was an icy bump field full of novices, not all of them still connected to their equipment. I remember a continual stream of falling skiers and their bits and pieces of equipment, down the narrow section part way down. In contrast, the off piste to the side of Mont Fort was untracked, easy and safe. The crowds were on the itineraries, not the plentiful easy-accessed off-piste.
I don't think there's an issue with learning or practicing safely. You can go off the back of Whistler and die in a slide, just the same as you can in Verbier or anywhere else. No amount of infrastructure change is going to affect how averse people are to that type of risk.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
So why not make some controlled areas where people can learn/practice safely? It's not like you still wouldn't have terrain outside the boundaries for those wanting a backcountry experience.
|
What is an itinerary? |
Ime it's an ungroomed piste, that's usually ice and or moguls Hardly a freeride playground. Perhaps verbier does a better job than some other places, but let's not pretend the average euro resorts are offering avy controlled terrain like you get in n America. Squaw fingers, Ozone at kicking horse, delirium dive at Sunshine, gemstone bowls at whistler etc. |
Um, I think it's just different things, and I'm all in favour of difference.
I was in Verbier last season, and very good it was too. At that time the Tortin itinerary was an icy bump field full of novices, not all of them still connected to their equipment. I remember a continual stream of falling skiers and their bits and pieces of equipment, down the narrow section part way down. In contrast, the off piste to the side of Mont Fort was untracked, easy and safe. The crowds were on the itineraries, not the plentiful easy-accessed off-piste.
I don't think there's an issue with learning or practicing safely. You can go off the back of Whistler and die in a slide, just the same as you can in Verbier or anywhere else. No amount of infrastructure change is going to affect how averse people are to that type of risk. |
I don’t know about the “average Euro resort”, but in Verbier, Arlberg, Val d’Isere, Zermatt, Zinal etc you’ve got plenty of controlled itineraries and freeride zones.
And I’m not sure your North American examples are exactly “average” either, that’s pretty much the best terrain they have.
I skied the couloirs in Whistler Blackcomb last season (one even named after Sylvain Saudan!) and they were crusty mank. From what I hear, that’s been most of this season too.
Meanwhile we’ve been skiing powder most weekends straight off lifts. Modern lift infrastructure means minimal queues, and you’ve got everything from a 10chf crêpe to genuinely excellent on mountain restaurants with sensational Alpine views.
Honestly, I can’t think of anything about North American ski resorts I’d want in Europe.
And no benefit from an Epic Pass because it would be a step down in quality from a Verbier pass that gives access to Cham, Engelberg, Aosta valley, Jungfrau, PdS, Pays du GSB as well as the Vail resorts if I really wanted to visit them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Here is my hot-take:
I skied once in North America.
Couple of weeks in Kicking Horse plus some touring at Rogers pass (2005).
Really enjoyed it - cool mountain / fun terrain.
Golden was a red neck town but had its charm.
Skied almost every chute on CPR ridge and Terminator.
BUT: compared to Europe (Cham, La grave, Verbier) it felt like mini-golf skiing. The snow was decent but not amazing.
SO: As a European if I was to fly 12 hours for skiing I would much rather go back to Japan.
Better powder, more interesting cultural experience and overall better value.
Nothing against North American skiing - it was fun but very far to travel.
Certainly I dont see the Epic pass as a good thing for European skiing.
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