 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just a guess but I'd wager the bean counters back in Colorado are looking to save money wherever they can after a poor US season. South facing slopes, and the cost of keeping them open, prob doesn't help.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Raw capitalism at work in a country where money is the 5th language.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Why is anyone surprised? If you sup with the Devil ...
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@Kenzie, ^+1
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| Quote: |
Edit: a bit of poking around, and looking on the Wayback machine, suggests the CM website had listed April 6th as the closing date all winter.
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So basically resort closes on date it had announced it would close all winter. Absolute non-story. The Vail haters (most of whom have never owned an epic pass else probably would be fans) get rage baited by misleading headline and jump to conclusions.
Before the "Yes but there's snow!" - you realise how complicated it is when everyone has a contract up to a certain date, and have organised life, rentals, travel etc. around this to then decide to stay open extra weeks.
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As much as I dislike what I hear about the business that owns Vail etc this seems a non story. Most areas are ramping down or closing from today. Those that remain open often have very few people actually skiing. Running the lifts etc has to be planned months in advance. Its not just a case of running a couple of lifts there is piste patrol, maintenance, catering etc most of the staff will be on fixed contracts and cant easily be extended at short notice just because there was late snow. So maybe they could have planned for next weekend closing but if the snow was poor and there were no visitors, income would be negligible and the area would loose money. Not sensible planning for any business. Perhaps those complaining could learn ski touring techniques!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As we discussed in the Pyrenees snow report thread, there is an official closing date planned for months, due to short term working contracts etc. If it looks like the season can continue, as there is good snow, they ask the workers if they are able to stay for another few weeks, maybe with limited lifts and pistes kept open.
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Seems a wee bit earlier for Crans Montana to shut?
It is one of the higher resorts in Valais.
Pretty sure there used to be summer skiing on the Plaine Morte as recently as the 90s.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Anzere, on the other side of the valley, closed on 6th as well, the day after the Easter week-end. Really nothing to see at all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you google around lots of places shut either after Easter or this coming weekend. The amount of snow still around has very little to do with it. Good news for tourers. It can't be profitable to run a full op when an 8 man chair is being filled by a single rider. Even 3V is pussying out and pulling the plug on 17 April not even giving a final weekend.
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@Haggis_Trap, Crans closed last year on 21 April 25, and some cached websites show a later closure date for this season. So I can understand why some locals would be upset, especially the local racers who will lose a couple of weeks training.
So even if there was an closing date published months ago (and yes I do understand and have written before on how difficult it is to extend a season - thanks for the condescending replies) it seems there is a different corporate ethos in operation.
@boarder2020, I see you immediately reverted to the classic internet reply of "haters" to denigrate those who dare to have a different opinion to you. How positively Trumpian.
This should serve as a portent of the future to any other resort considering selling out.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wholeheartedly agree
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Poster: A snowHead
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@afterski, can you edit the title to say closes on time as planned?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, Crans closed last year on 21 April 25, and some cached websites show a later closure date for this season. So I can understand why some locals would be upset, especially the local racers who will lose a couple of weeks training. |
Last year Easter Sunday was 20 April, so CM shot the day after Easter. This year Easter was earlier and it shut a week after Easter.
I can understand the logic for planning ski resort opening and closing dates around major holidays.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| The vast majority of ski resorts are run to make money - I doubt any say "let's stay open longer running at a loss to make locals happy". |
I don't think this is actually true. Assuming it is fuels a horrible race to the bottom.
It is true that making some money is a necessary part of being a sustainable going concern, this isn't someone's hobby or a publicly funded service. But also most resorts aren't just corporate entities that exist solely to fill shareholders pockets, and the reduction of everything we do to purely being about the creation of shareholder value is quite a bleak way to see the world.
Lots (maybe most) resorts in Europe exist to provide employment for local people, to exploit the natural resources of the area and to provide leisure opportunities for locals and tourists. They're often owned by local authorities and lift companies are separate businesses to the rest of the local ecosystem that relies on them to trade.
And lots of businesses sometimes trade at a loss for short periods to play a longer game. In this example are people less likely to buy a season pass for next year if this season was shorter; are local businesses which rely on the ski resort likely to close, which overall makes the resort a less attractive proposition for visitors; does having a quiet period at the end of the season where locals can enjoy the resort without the crowds generate good will with locals meaning future developments of the resort are seen in a more positive light.
I don't know the local factors at play, nor do know the ins and outs of the Vail model being good for skiers or not. But boiling a business down to it's sole purpose being to make money is a horrible way to see the world and does seem to be something that is often associated with an American way of seeing things.
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Comparing Crans with Anzère says it all. Is it now a second division resort for American tourists?
Meanwhile Verbier is open to 26 April, and even Portes du Soleil keeps skiing going until 19 April.
Vail Resorts have already made their money on early pass sales, so why bother staying open?
The irony is Vaud and Valais school holidays are this and next week and there are perfrct Spring skiing conditions.
Hard not to feel like this is what happens when a Swiss resort gets run for spreadsheets instead of skiers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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We shouldn't be surprised that resorts are gradually closing a bit earlier each year/decade, or that at some point April skiing might become restricted to a few high resorts.
It will be interesting to see what Crans-Montana does in 2028 (Easter April 16) and 2030 (April 21). Will they close even before school holidays have started?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
@BobinCH, but crans also closed after Easter holidays (like many resorts it seems) last year. So why the fuss this year?
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Easter was late last year, earlier this year. Crans has actually shut before the school holidays this year. It closed after them last year. It’s never closed this early. Ever. Hint for you: Vail resorts 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| We shouldn't be surprised that resorts are gradually closing a bit earlier each year/decade, or that at some point April skiing might become restricted to a few high resorts. |
The real irony is that the skiing in April is often better than early December. Nicer weather, deeper base, longer days <etc>.
Spring snow better than early season ice.
This decision is based on economics rather than lack of snow / climate change.
The problem with ending season early is that it quickly becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.
Those that want to ski into April will simply goto Verbier, Zermatt or Sass Fee.
Crans is already something of an outlier. It is small Valais resort that opted out of the Magic Pass.
Obviously they think they have enough rich American guests to make that viable proposition.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
Unless you are skiing somewhere like shames - a not for profit coop, you best believe profit is a key driving factor. You think verbier lift company needs to make 4.5million CHF profit per year?  |
Most of the Verbier shareholders are local. It’s well run and puts significant reinvestment in the infrastructure. Nothing like Crans.
You know nothing about Vail resorts if you think they care about anything other than maximizing (short term) profit. But that’s fine if all you care about is your cheap pass  |
From Google:
"Crans-Montana has upgraded its infrastructure with the new Forcelles 6-seater chairlift (opened Dec 2025) and the 10-person Montana-Arnouva gondola. These improvements, along with enhanced snowmaking, are part of modernization efforts following the resort's acquisition by Vail Resorts. A new Aminona-Colombire-Grangettes gondola is also planned for 2026."
It seems like Vail are doing at least some investment in the area. I have friends at Whistler and vail have certainly upgraded lifts there. I'm sure there are some resorts where Vail haven't invested - but it's hardly limited to Vail. My friends at kicking horse are probably more upset with lack of improvements than anyone I know at a Vail resort.
It would be interesting to actually get a take from a local. My suspicion is they are probably fine with losing a week or two in spring for a €900 season pass that gets them unlimited skiing in crans and andermatt, plus days at verbier, 3 valleys, golden, mayrhofen, saalbach, ski Arlberg... Plus options for Japan and n America if they want to venture further afield.
The epic pass has made skiing much more affordable to a lot of people I know. It's gave them the opportunity to visit resorts they wouldn't have otherwise realistically been able to. So it's hard for me to be overly negative. But I know most of the biggest critics never had an epic pass, maybe just jealousy 
Yes there are downsides, but people bend over backwards to hate Vail. There are plenty of resorts run really badly. You are kidding yourselves if you think the majority of resorts not owned by Vail are run for the good of skiers. Profits and selling real estate are understandably much bigger drivers - they are businesses not charities.
If you want to ski a real coop not for profit go to shames.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
The epic pass has made skiing much more affordable to a lot of people I know. It's gave them the opportunity to visit resorts they wouldn't have otherwise realistically been able to. So it's hard for me to be overly negative. But I know most of the biggest critics never had an epic pass, maybe just jealousy |
Standard self-centered viewpoint. Those who ski a lot strongly believe Vail and Alterra “make skiing accessible for many”. That’s true for that group. But at the expense of the rest.
I had Epic pass for several years. But I don’t any more. Yeah, tell me I’m jealous. That I don’t know how good Epicpass is.
“Who pay for day tickets anyway”. But plenty do. Now they’re fleeced. Just those are not the people you know so they don’t count.
| Quote: |
| Yes there are downsides, but people bend over backwards to hate Vail. There are plenty of resorts run really badly. |
But there were many not-so-badly run resorts sold to Vail and became terribly run. You just decided to ignore those and stay with your rosy view of Vail. You’re the one who “bend over backward” to defend Vail!
Not saying that’s going to happen to European resorts. But a tale of caution are the resorts in Mt Washington valley of New Hampshire. Wildcat used to have one of the longest season of the east. Besides having a very high snow total and good snow preservation, it’s also very cold and very windy during regular season. So spring used to be the best time to ski “the cat”. No more after Vail. The mountain is but a shadow of its former self. Too miserable to ski mid-season, closed just when it’s in good skiing shape. In the mean time, there were lift upgrades, which no one needs. (Well, the lifts probably needed the upgrade, but it’s not clear anyone ski there much any more). Its “sister” resort, which was largely a racers training hill, suffers constant lift and run closure post Vail.
Part of the reason I no longer have Epic pass was one of the mountain on Epic used to be my regular mountain. But after Vail took over, it stopped making snow early season. So a lot more run closure than before. It’s no longer worth the drive up there to ski only 30% of terrain in January! Another mountain that was better run before Vail took over than after.
Vail gets lots of hate because it deserves many of them. But if you’re the benefit class, by all means enjoy it. Nothing wrong in that. But stop proclaiming it benefits more than it hurts when all you know is your own benefits.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@kitenski, I just copy pasted the headline from reddit to be honest. I think that the headline/title is actually quite accurate: It has closed before local school holidays (as Bob pointed out) and has closed earlier than other resorts in the area. Locals are upset. Vail owns it.
So I won't change it.
In my view the issue at hand is that the corporate cookie cutter approach that Vail has RIGHTLY taken here* is totally at odds with the more European social capitalism view of how ski resorts should work as a public good.
*rightly in the sense that they are judged by the US public markets purely on their financial performance. Don't hate the playa, hate the game....
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| afterski wrote: |
.... is totally at odds with the more European social capitalism view of how ski resorts should work as a public good.
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Yup - uplift in Europe is more often a loss leader for local business / shops / ski schools etc. Especially at start and end of the season.
I think Crans Montana is very much an anomaly. Posh European resort than happens to be on the Epic pass primarily for benefit of rich Americans
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
[
It would be interesting to actually get a take from a local. My suspicion is they are probably fine with losing a week or two in spring for a €900 season pass that gets them unlimited skiing in crans and andermatt, plus days at verbier, 3 valleys, golden, mayrhofen, saalbach, ski Arlberg... Plus options for Japan and n America if they want to venture further afield.
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I have a couple of friends with apts there.
They buy the annual Crans pass, not the Epic Pass as it is cheaper (significantly so for kids) and they have little interest in skiing in Andermatt, Vail or Japan.
And it doesn’t take a genius to imagine their reaction to the resort closing before the kids Easter holiday.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| For context, Verbier is spending roughly CHF 35m on the new Savoleyres lift alone, plus La Chaux, Bruson, and earlier upgrades like Mont Gelé and Pasay. That’s what ongoing reinvestment in infrastructure looks like. |
I've been doing a bit of research recently about buying a place in 4V and saw that the Jumbo is also on the cards to be upgraded at some point next few years.
Verbier v Nendaz being the 2 main contenders. Nendaz becomes more appealing if (when) the gondola link to Sion becomes a thing. Amazing what perplexity computer can do on the research front compared to the basic LLMs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Vail folk might well be loathsome but the thought that "European" lift companies are paragons of social capitalism is wrong headed to say the least. For example Ischgl, which has one of the longest seasons in the alps, has a lift company owned by the same group of families who own the "village". The lift company has invested and continues to invest serious amounts in updating / upgrading the facilities. It is clear the business model is to attract as many visitors as possible from the end of November to the beginning of May. The primary aim of this is to fill the hotels (along with the sports shops and apres bars) owned by those same group of families and make them even richer by extracting as much cash as possible from visitors. I am sure someone will point to an area where the lifts are owned by the local council and the place is run to benefit as many as possible but those sort of places are a small minority most lift companies are there primarily to make a profit, if the business model is such that shutting directly after Easter makes sense that is what they will do. I am all for pointing out the failures of American style vulture capitalism but this seems all a bit wrong headed to me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
“Who pay for day tickets anyway”. But plenty do. Now they’re fleeced. Just those are not the people you know so they don’t count.
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Pretty much every subscription service rewards those that pay up front for long contracts.
When I'm back in UK I occasionally go to my local swimming pool. I "get fleeced" as my single session probably works out around 3x (or even more!) what a session for those on a yearly pass swimming multiple times per week works out at.
I'm not going to cry about it, fair enough the regulars get a cheaper price. Just like I'm not going to complain about Vail prioritising "skiers" over "tourists".
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@munich_irish, that is still very different to decisions being made by a beancounter in New York to whom the revenues in CM are probably something of a rounding error. I think the point is that Vail's business model is such, but it doesn't seem like CM's contemporaries are.
As I understand it Vails business model in the US is totally vertically integrated in each resort. Do they own much outside the lifts in CM? If they don't and aren't deriving any significant revenues from hotels, ski schools, restaurants etc then it seems CM might be doomed to late openings and early closures for a while.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lesson to aggrieved locals - don't let the owners of resorts sell out to companies like Vail if you don't want the consequences. Unfortunately that might mean you raising rather a lot of your own funds as a Co-op if the original owners are determined to cash out.
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[quote="boarder2020"]
| Quote: |
I'm not going to cry about it, fair enough the regulars get a cheaper price. Just like I'm not going to complain about Vail prioritising "skiers" over "tourists". |
The epic pass isn’t about giving regulars a better deal. Vail do it for two reasons: to get early cash and lock in skiers - you have to reserve and pay months in advance. The other is to make sure that people skiing a couple of weeks or more only go to Vail resorts. (A third, as others have said, is that they make a lot of money from ski schools, accommodation, food, and retail.)
You are just lucky that right now their business model and pricing strategy happens to suit you - if they think they can make more money with a different pricing strategy, they will have absolutely no compunction in screwing you, just like they screw one week a year families, lifties, instructors, and others.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
“Who pay for day tickets anyway”. But plenty do. Now they’re fleeced. Just those are not the people you know so they don’t count.
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Pretty much every subscription service rewards those that pay up front for long contracts.
When I'm back in UK I occasionally go to my local swimming pool. I "get fleeced" as my single session probably works out around 3x (or even more!) what a session for those on a yearly pass swimming multiple times per week works out at.
I'm not going to cry about it, fair enough the regulars get a cheaper price. Just like I'm not going to complain about Vail prioritising "skiers" over "tourists". |
You were the one who asked rhetorically “who pay for day tickets” Implying few do and they don’t matter.
Turns out, you DO (pay the equivalent of “day ticket”)!
Just because you personally don’t mind doesn’t mean nobody else should mind.
I’ll stop right here.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| turbosmurf wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
I'm not going to cry about it, fair enough the regulars get a cheaper price. Just like I'm not going to complain about Vail prioritising "skiers" over "tourists". |
The epic pass isn’t about giving regulars a better deal. |
Exactly!
Vail is very much prioritising “tourists” over “skiers”! At least in the US it does. Witness the extreme crowding in Vail owned resorts.
Vail calculated what it takes to “drive” vacationers to Vail resorts to maximize profit in accommodation, foods & beverages, equipment rental and ski schools. By packing the resort with enough tourists, it will be profitable!
As for “skiers”? They’ll have to find their own way to ski as much as they want, without stepping onto the tail of the tourists’ skis! Plenty of real skiers found their way to work the Vail systems. But only a very small minority defend Vail’s most egregious practices. I guess one of the most vocal one is here!
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It is quite a widely acknowledged fact that businesses who's primary purpose is to "make as much money as we can" tend to perform badly, particularly over the long term. Businesses who are purpose lead, who prioritise the customer experience over profit and who look after their employees tend to perform well over the long term and actually do also end up being quite profitable (as long as the underlying fundamentals are sound).
(there are obviously exceptions to this, don't cherry pick examples of horrible companies that succeed, nor nice ones that failed to try to discredit the overall trend!)
Vail seem to be failing this test, this decision at CM to close before the school holidays is a great example of this. If the business fundamentals could have sustained a later opening it would certainly have benefitted some of their most loyal customers, and the community in which they exist (more value from season passes already purchased, more customers in the resort ecosystem spending money). And if closing early is the best decision for skiers (all skiers, whether they happen to be tourists or locals), because it is necessary to secure the future of the resort then maybe communicate that.
But if as seems likely, that some accountants spreadsheet scenario analysis said that the cost of staying open was greater than the extra day passes they'd sell in that period, and had zero effect on season pass revenue since that was already in the bank, so therefore they chose to close, then this seems like putting profit over customers. It's a crappy thing to do in the short term, and in the long term if doing those crappy things is embedded in the company culture then it's likely the company will fail.
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