 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Care to elaborate/summerise what those interesting things are?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Transcript. Prepared by AI watching the video.
"These ski stations that Magic Pass doesn't want"
Skiing — we continue to talk about it. And if you hold a Magic Pass, well, this topic concerns you. You may have already wondered why such-and-such a station isn't part of it. Well, you're going to learn more about the reasons behind the choices made by the cooperative, which now encompasses around a hundred ski areas.
Good evening, Vincent Cherpillod. Good evening.
You might think that Magic Pass is on the lookout for every new member to bolster its offering, but that's not the case at all. As you've seen, some resorts are desperately trying to get in, but the door remains shut.
Yes, and that's the case for Saas-Grund — four rejections — and Grächen, two Upper Valais stations, one on the road to Zermatt, the other to Saas-Fee. Saas-Fee, located barely five kilometers from Saas-Grund, is one of the pillars of Magic Pass. Some believe it's Saas-Fee that opposes its neighbor joining the cooperative to avoid competition.
So what's the story? The relationship between the two stations has indeed been tense in recent years. Having remained independent, Saas-Grund notably refused a buyout offer from Saas-Fee, deemed far too low. Discussions went badly, with each side accusing the other of dishonesty. Enough so that the former director of Saas-Grund's ski lifts openly accused Saas-Fee of blocking their entry into Magic Pass.
But according to the director of CESAM, Sébastien Travelletti, that's simply not the case. It's a democratic decision taken by Magic Pass members, he assured us. Each member votes with one voice to accept or reject new candidates.
So, nothing to see here, move along. Well, not entirely. When a new application is submitted, it's the board of directors that first issues a recommendation — positive or negative — a sort of voting guideline for its members. And by Sébastien Travelletti's own admission, these recommendations are generally followed. So the board plays a predominant role. And among its seven members is one man, Simon Bumann, who is also the director of Saas-Fee's ski lifts.
That said, it is indeed precise criteria that determine the yes or no given to stations, the Magic Pass director tells us, and they are above all economic — a calculation that takes into account the potential for new customers a station can bring versus the cost it would generate by diluting revenues. In short, Saas-Grund would cost the cooperative more than it would bring in new subscribers.
So one question remains, Vincent Cherpillod — what can these stations left at the door actually do? That's the whole problem for medium-sized stations like Grächen or Saas-Grund, because Magic Pass has upended the ski market. In regions where it is well established, virtually all stations have fallen into two camps. On one side, the very large ones that rely on their reputation and foreign clientele to get by — Portes du Soleil, Quatre Vallées, Zermatt, for example. On the other, those that have joined Magic Pass. In between, almost nothing — to the point where one might wonder whether it's possible to survive outside this duopoly.
But Sébastien Travelletti concludes: even though it has already saved several stations from decline, Magic Pass's mission is not to do charity.
Thank you, Vincent Cherpillod. The details of this investigation can be found on our site RTS Info and on the RTS Info app.
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^ Interesting: Sass Fee (and Grimentz / Zinal) is very much "jewel in the crown" on the magic pass.
That translation reads to me that Saas Fee is using that power to exclude Saas-Grund?
Perhaps so they can eventually buy out their neighbour on the cheap?
| afterski wrote: |
So one question remains, Vincent Cherpillod — what can these stations left at the door actually do? That's the whole problem for medium-sized stations like Grächen or Saas-Grund, because Magic Pass has upended the ski market. In regions where it is well established, virtually all stations have fallen into two camps. On one side, the very large ones that rely on their reputation and foreign clientele to get by — Portes du Soleil, Quatre Vallées, Zermatt, for example. On the other, those that have joined Magic Pass. In between, almost nothing — to the point where one might wonder whether it's possible to survive outside this duopoly. But Sébastien Travelletti concludes: even though it has already saved several stations from decline, Magic Pass's mission is not to do charity.
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I find the economics of magic pass fascinating.
Individually the small areas couldn't compete with Verbier / Zermatt (etc) on their own.
But collectively they have an interesting offering.
Raises 2 interesting questions:
Q1) What happens to any ski stations excluded from the Magic Pass?
The pass has empowered small ski areas - but as its becomes monopoly small areas can't afford to exist outside it.
Q2) Climate change has unfortunate consequences.
The local / cheaper / family stations (generally low altitude) become less viable.
Meanwhile the higher altitude ski areas are becoming ever more expensive and gentrified.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This looks like fairly basic economics. Most passes are sold to local people (say 90%). The number of local people is finite and there probably is little room for growth in ticket sales. For those areas wanting to join they would have to show they could at least "pay their way" but that is unlikely to be the case for a small area like the one at Saas Grund. If they were to join there would be less income for those areas already part of the scheme. Hence the "sorry no" reply. However being outside scheme means there will be a negative impact on visitor numbers, if you already have a season pass for elsewhere then why pay out to visit another area. So for those small areas not currently on board it is likely going to be more of a struggle to survive, not all of them are low, eg Saas Grund has (or at least had) a section on a glacier.
A scheme that was meant to help small areas survive might end up with the opposite effect
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| . If they were to join there would be less income for those areas already part of the scheme. Hence the "sorry no" reply. |
That is the official line:
However : Saas Grund is a large ski area that goes upto 3000m. It has it's own village (and presumably existing local season pass holders might buy a magic pass). It's a much larger resort than most others already on the magic pass. Plus with a glacier it will have a long season and is big enough to attract overseas skiers In it's own right. So on paper it should be a very positive addition to the magic pass. The only other big areas on magic pass are Grimentz / Zinal / Sass Fee and G3000. (Crans Montana already attracts rich jet set and does it's own thing).
The economics of any joint area pass very much based on principle that joint larger area is more able to attract visitors collectively. Plus even if skiers pay less per day they still spend on accomodation, cafes etc.
READING BETWEEN THE LINES : The back story seems to be that Saas Fee doesn't get on with it's neighbour. Tried to buy them out cheap. Plus the Saas Fee director is also on the Magic Pass board (so perhaps has a conflict of interest to exclude neighbour).
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Isn't Saas Fee car free? Would guess that makes it less attractive to day visitors.
Saas Grund looks to have a big carpark right next to the main lift.
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Saas Grund is the village and Hohsaas is the ski area. It's all very confusing because you look at the piste map and assume Hohsaas and Saas Fee are all part of the same area, same logo style even. To add to the confusion and the politics, Hohsaas is Swiss owned and, surprisingly, Saas Fee is Austrian owned (not a lot of people know that) and according to my friendly local, there's not a lot of love.
I like both areas and it amazes me that people drive by Hohsaas on their way to Saas Fee and never drop in for a ski. Hohsaas may be compact but it has tons of vertical and is a little gem in my opinion. If the weather is iffy I know I'd rather not be up at Saas Fee.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Haggis_Trap, I agree, it sounds like Saas Fee is doing the blocking here.
It's a shame - if Saas Grund had been allowed to join, I'd definitely have visited when in the valley last year. Now admittedly, that would indeed have diluted some of the revenue going to the other areas because I'd have missed out on somewhere else. However plenty of other small and medium areas have been able to join and I find it hard to believe that Saas Grund is such a special case.
Saas Grund does offer a discount on day passes to Magic Pass holders btw.
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@Haggis_Trap, but it is not just Saas Grund (where I agree there is probably some local politics at play) but Grächen, another small but not that small area plus two others. For the existing areas, especially the smaller ones, letting more areas in will only reduce income. For Saas Fee I doubt it makes any real difference to their income as they will attract far more "holiday" visitors who will buy 6 day tickets. Slicing the pie into more pieces means less pie for all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rjs, in that case it is pretty easy to imagine Saas Grund eating Saas Fee's lunch. Why keep driving up the valley and then lugging your kit across a car free town if you can simply park at the cable car in saas Grund. A shame as the customer also loses out. Maybe Saas Fee's plan is to wait until Saas Grund has no option but to sell to them at a knock down price
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| ..... Slicing the pie into more pieces means less pie for all. |
Sure - thought the pie is sliced based on skier numbers at each resort.
Ultimately the Magic Pass is about sharing economy of scale.
The total size of pie is not finite - there are two ways to increase total numbers
i) more casual local swiss skiers persuaded to buy season pass
ii) extra overseas skiers
A small local ski area might get less revenue per head if it's signs up to magic pass. However if they can get more total skiers through the door then revenue in cafe / accommodation/ ski school etc might increase.
The selfish concern for Sass Fee is surely that Sass Grund might be very popular with magic pass holders. Therefore diluting their own skier numbers?
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| For Saas Fee I doubt it makes any real difference to their income as they will attract far more "holiday" visitors who will buy 6 day tickets. Slicing the pie into more pieces means less pie for all. |
The way these multi-area season passes works makes a huge difference to the likes of Saas Fee - same way that the Epic Pass makes a huge difference to Vail Resorts. They get a massive input of cash months before the season even starts. The model is that the customer gets an incentive to buy their next season's pass right now and that's when most of the cash gets collected. It insulates resorts from a poor season and irons out the cashflow. Resorts being kept out of Magic Pass don't have that benefit and can't invest as much on infrastructure, marketing etc etc. It's going to kill off a lot of smaller resorts. Then watch the pass price begin to creep up.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think Switzerland has a problem in that the cost of skiing there makes it unattractive to non residents when there is equally good skiing all around. It would make sense except for true local locals if Magic pass cleaned up after the big resorts that do attract foreign visitors ( and have increasingly jumped into bed with Vail or Alterra) like Verbier, Zermatt, Crans Montana, Andermatt.
So I can see being vetoed from the Magic pass being a slow kiss of death.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| So I can see being vetoed from the Magic pass being a slow kiss of death. |
Yes, and the board of Magic Pass is made up of just 7 individuals (so I'm told) who all run ski areas and all have a vested interest in not spreading the cash more thinly. The pass has reached a critical mass, doesn't need to expand, and that is sending others to their doom.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Phantom Phil wrote: |
| The pass has reached a critical mass, doesn't need to expand, and that is sending others to their doom. |
But the pass is expanding every year
It originally used to be just Valais resorts ...
Now it includes German speaking resorts in Eastern CH.
Resorts in the Jura. Italian resorts and a couple in France.
The exclusion of Saas Grund (a decent mid size resort) seems to be primarily political rather than economic critical mass.
Saas Fee likely holds disproportionate power as one of the few recognisable big name resorts on magic pass? Their selfish fear will be that skiers simply chose to park down valley in Saas Grund. Therby diluting their own numbers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Haggis_Trap, resorts are now being declined though, not just Hohsaas.
The expansion into France hasn't gone well because very few French people are buying the pass as they don't want the expense of skiing where most of the resorts are... Switzerland. For the Italians it's even worse.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Phantom Phil wrote: |
@Haggis_Trap, resorts are now being declined though, not just Hohsaas.
The expansion into France hasn't gone well because very few French people are buying the pass as they don't want the expense of skiing where most of the resorts are... Switzerland. For the Italians it's even worse. |
True : though magic pass has been huge success for small swiss resorts
In both attracting foreign visitors and turning casual local skiers into season pass holders. Though that might not be sustainable longer term.
As mentioned above : the exchange rate makes Switzerland very expensive. Plus most of the resorts on the pass are somewhat off radar (remote, low altitude, limited uplift etc) for tourists
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@Phantom Phil, there might not be thousands of people buying the pass in France and Italy, but the Magic Pass is such good value that it'll undercut even some single resort season passes. So the French / Italians don't even need to travel to Switzerland to get value for money.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| denfinella wrote: |
| @Phantom Phil, there might not be thousands of people buying the pass in France and Italy, but the Magic Pass is so goodnvalue that it'll undercut even some single resort season passes. So the French / Italians don't even need to travel to Switzerland to get value for money. |
8 days in Grimentz / Saas Fee etc the same price as Magic pass
The pricing clearly designed to turn single week visitors into repeat customers. Plus prices might draw visitors away from big resorts (Verbier, Zermatt, Porte du Soleil)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Some French season passes allow days elsewhere anyway so it is a bit more complicated decision on whether the Magic Pass is the right choice.
The only extra pass that I have bought this winter was one day in Chamrousse, had two days elsewhere using my season pass.
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There wont be many examples where the local season pass is cheaper than the magic pass tho surely? Le Grand Bornand for for example is
€542 for local season pass but Magic is €444
Workers on the mountain do usually get significantly cheaper passes tho so I guess they will still sell some local passes
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Indy pass looks interesting since it includes my two fav Scottish areas(2 days in each resort only tho)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@alasdair.graham, AFAIK they only sell Indy Pass in the USA to people with a US address. Would be interesting to know how many have sampled the delights of the Highlands tho'.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Phantom Phil wrote: |
| @alasdair.graham, AFAIK they only sell Indy Pass in the USA to people with a US address. Would be interesting to know how many have sampled the delights of the Highlands tho'. |
Funny you mention that.
Met a young American student up Glencoe this winter...
He was studying in London and took a long weekend to ski in the highlands with his Indy pass.
Think he also used his pass back home over Xmas / Easter etc.
Fortuitously (or by design?) he picked one of the best weekends of the winter.
Was having a great time and said it reminded him of the small ski areas in New Hampshire.
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@Haggis_Trap, The Indy deal is amazing. $300 to ski 2 days for free in nearly 300 resorts spread across the globe. If you just drove around USA & Canada you could ski every day of the season for the price of a day pass in a Vail resort!
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You know it makes sense.
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@Phantom Phil,
Thats a shame if correct
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FAQ
