ski mags

A snowHead

jacksonhole, what about the typography and page design issue? Is the advertorial sold on the basis that the magazine commits to making it look like editorial? [I'm not singling out Ski+Board here - other ski magazines are welcome to comment]

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

achilles, Wanna job on Ski and Board? I keep forgetting what a talented poet you are!
A brilliant young poet, Achilles
Writes ditties on mountains and hillies
He's talented (natch)
And he seems quite a catch
Till we see what the size of his bill is Happy

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Young J'hole he wrote advertorial
(Made Swiller climb on his high-horseral).
Asked "Is it ethically fair?"
He said "Yes, and take care,
Without it no mag,
Which would bore you all!"

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

jacksonhole, achilles, I cannot compete with the poetry, but I will say : as soon as I see advertorial in any magazine, I skip directly over the page. Generally they are written by the resort marketing people and appear as an elaborated list of benefits.
I understand that this generates revenue - they are paying to get the message over. If you edited it to reflect a more 'balanced' view, they would pay less. Do they realise that I and possibly many other readers are wise to them and just don't read it at all ? Is there any figures for this ?

I think the advertorials are 'soleless' - no human angle. Please do more articles like achille's trip.

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"achilles' trip"

A telling phrase, sadly.

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David Goldsmith, going alldark and mysterious on us again. lampbus, I couldn't agree more. The more intelligent resorts, like Smugglers' Notch for example, leave such features in the hands of good writers and don't interfere. Unlike other resorts which want to pump out brochure copy (albeit fine-tuned by a professional writer) Smuggs realise readers will be much more likely to be intersted in promotional material that at least reads like editorial even if it IS branded "advertorial"

After all it is free

jacksonhole, Im trying to work out if David's comment is a slight against Nick or me. Either way its not telling Puzzled

achilles tripped and hurt his achilles, which is sad. He also lost a Nick-name as a result. This is why I found the phrase "achilles' trip" telling.

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pam w, We have to maintain a balance of editorial versus advertising of 60 - 40 (very occasionally it might reach 55-45). Personally I don't see much difference between advertising and advertorials as long as they are clearly marked as such. But you'll enjoy Issue 4 (we do!) - that's the issue which has virtually no advertorials.David Goldsmith, Greta Goldsmith doesn't quite have the same ring about it. Anyway, you surely don't want to be alone. Ot even "left alone" which I believe was the genuine quote.

snow reports

David Goldsmith, just seen you post about the advertorials being designed to look like editorials. Not at all. What would be the point if we are labelling them advertorials? It is a house rule that we don't make them look like editorials.

jacksonhole, yes they are clearly marked on the top of each page and you just skip through. Well, I suppose they pay for the quality content stuff, which is worthwhile to read. It is just a pity that they are so blatently advertorial - the resorts are really under estimating the intelligent of the readers. Anyway, jacksonhole, , could this this market research could be relayed back to the resorts. So that if we are to continue to have them, then they are better writen. Just a point!.

But, on the whole, if they pay for the magazine to exist, thay are a necasary evil.

You know it makes sense.

David Goldsmith, ok, maybe I was being too sensitive. I was looking forward to making an enemy on the forum wink

(or possibly not; I usually try to blend into the background - or the nearest snowdrift)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

hibernia,

A snowHead

A snowHead

As a reader, advertorial annoys the hell out of me. It is generally poorly written and biased (as has been pointed out above). However, I understand the necessity of it.

From an editor point-of-view, we have not featured any advertorial in Dark Summer yet. I'd like to think we never will but only time will tell there. I feel they don't work particularly well for the companies paying for them.

It will always be a tough call in a niche market where every bit of revenue makes a huge difference. I always try to make decisions like this by considering what I would want if I were a reader, but at times you have to compromise for the good of the magazine as a whole.

I have taken note of the poetry section (can't make any promises though Very Happy

)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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DarkSummer, poetry section is much better use of space than paid-for editorial! I hope you never allow it in. Be hard about it and your advertisers (and readers) will respect you for it.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Goldsmith, yes, agreed, of course they look like regular editorial as that's the intention... why else do it? I've flogged advertising on national consumer magazines and know exactly the kind of conversation that takes place twixt salesperson and client. As others have said, it's OK in moderation but the "flagship" paid-fors in wintersport really must get more quality in them to reflect the savvy nature of their audience. As magazines go they are not very brave or campaigning on behalf of the reader. Some resorts deserve a real panning but never get it. Some bits of kit are patently daft and never get ridiculed (I'm thinking here of the seemingly endless line up of strappy ski carrying devices). It's all a bit staid and well past its sell-by date in comparison to other mags. Sooner or later the news stands will get tired of the low sales and seasonality and drop them altogether. Ski and board mags are already becoming increasingly hard to find and this'll just get worse unless someone relaunches and freshens things up. The freebies like Dark Summer and Snow must surely be delighted at what's going on and this is evidenced by Snow's 34,000 ABC - straight to market leader status in just a couple of seasons!

That is a poem by the way. One of those non-rhyming one's that academics love.

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This man has a new concept for ski magazines.

He is an 'advertor' and will present any advertorial pages so that they are clearly identifiable as processed meat.
I think his concept deserves a fair hearing.

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Any resemblance to any existing advertor or advertising executive of any British ski magazine is purely coincidental.

After all it is free

Snow is based entirely on give-aways so for me that makes its so-called circulation completely arbitrary. Also, my personal opinion is that it's packed with advertorial material - but just doesn't label it as such. Again (personally) I believe that our best editorial features knock spots off anything Snow does.

I'd just wish they'd hurry up!!!! I need to look at something!!!!

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jacksonhole, your humility and modesty in these matters never cease to astound me. Would you like the editor or publisher of Snow to respond to your custard pie? It could be fun!

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David Goldsmith, No need for sarcasm in this instance. I can't believe for a moment that you rate Snow's approach to skiing - all froth and little substance. I'm quite happy for Ski+Board to be compared with other well-designed magazines with intelligent content and realistic ABC figures. But what I've seen of Snow - and I haven't seen a copy since last year - does not inspire me and I would be surprised and disappointed if it inspired you. No, I don't welcome a custard pie battle with the management of Snow. Life is too short. And in any case I like the man. Just don't like his product. And people who claim massive readership based purely on give-aways are very irritating. I could give away thousands of Ski+Board issues if I wanted to - or had the time - but it's not our style.

snow reports

David Goldsmith, ah! Not like the Glory Days when you were on the staff of Ski Survey! wink

jacksonhole, actually I never uttered a syllable about Snow's approach to skiing. It's your allegation that they publish disguised advertorial, which implies that they are paid to run specific articles. They may wish to respond to that - that's all I was saying. Sorry for the sarcasm!

As for giving away magazines, precisely the same scenario is being played out this week in London with Rupert Murdoch's launch of a free newspaper and a battle royal with the publishers of the Evening Standard (Associated Newspapers). So, 'freebies -v- non-freebies' is not a war confined to ski magazines.

Competitors of the SCGB's magazine (as Nick says, Ski Survey in the old days) have always had a go at the Club for basing its circulation figure on distribution to members who don't actively make a purchasing decision to obtain each copy of the magazine. To that extent it's swings and roundabouts.

But to suggest that there's anything wrong in Snow dishing out free magazines may be counter-productive. They have to pay the printers, and the writers and photographers, like any magazine. It's a level playing field, isn't it?

You know it makes sense.

You've just levelled it! Happy

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Snow magazine isn't 'packed' with advertorial and when there is advertorial, it is clearly labelled as such. In issue 1 last year, which carried more advertorial than any other issue, we had 6 pages out of 56 total -2 pages for Airtours/Sauze, 2 for the Tirol and 2 for the Daily Mail Ski Show. That was the high water mark! In respect of our distribution, whilst it isn't perfect, we work hard at it. I accept that being free is our achilles heel (as well as our strength), but we work hard to improve the efficiency of our distribution. We regularly communicate with stockists as the last thing we want to do is to just chuck magazines away. Things change from year to year and the season ahead will see new initiatives to improve our effectiveness. We are used to receiving our information free of charge and Snow is simply a reflection of this. Our ABC audit at 33,708 copies per issue is head and shoulders above our competitors. In fact the whole magazine will be available digitally from issue 1, so if we can't be bothered to go and find a copy somewhere, we will email it to you. That is where we see our significant future growth - with or without advertorial!

A snowHead

Thanks. I don't think it would be clever for me to respond personally, except to say that Snow magazine's comments were not solicited by me. Someone probably made the call, and a right of reply to jacksonhole's comments was correctly exercised.

The acid test, I think we can agree, is 'reader opinion'. [and, obviously, 'advertiser opinion'] We've had many discussions on snowHeads about the SnowAwards voting system, and sadly the collective feeling was that the electronic method wasn't sufficiently secure to prevent multiple voting. But it would be interesting for all the UK ski magazines to be fairly compared by a large panel of unbiased readers.

The more people that read a variety of ski magazines the better, so maybe we can continue this discussion through the season.

A snowHead

Snow magazine, welcome to the madhouse. Very Happy

It's good to see the editors present here, and willing to discuss what they do.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

achilles, Thankyou. Without wishing to appear pedantic, I am the publisher! Yeh, I know - big deal!

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To direct everyone to a quality snowsports magazine IMO I'd suggest picking up White Lines - weighty, packed with top quality photography, personality and with a free DVD for a quid more than your usual mag. Snowboarding so might not be up your street but it knocks spots off almost all retail ski mags. It may of course be cr@p this coming season & I can't claim to be totally ubiased - they once gave me a free hat Smile

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Snow magazine, a professional response given that you were unprofessionally criticised. And anyway, what you call advertorial I'd say are straight forward promotions. That means it's very clear to me as the reader that it is a paid-for promo. The resort stuff in Ski & Board looks like editorial - never mind the "house rules".

jacksonhole, I think you're attack on Snow is staggeringly pompous. Can't imagine what you say about Dark Summer, Fall Line and "those ghastly" snowboard mags. You find magazines with bigger ABCs "irritating", you think pages of your own exploits and pics of yourself equals "intelligent content", you accuse them of selling their editorial space just because folks here are pointing out the weakness in your own mag. If S&B is so darn good how come you only sell a few thousand copies at news stands? DMSS outstrips you 4:1. And what's your "realistic ABC" - how many copies sent by post never leave the plastic wrapper?

fatbob, I agree.

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Snow magazine, you have responded splendidly and I salute you. I knew that when I launched by "staggeringly pompous" remarks it would get back to you, and I take your reply on the chin. As I said in my earlier remarks, like the man, not keen on the product. We are all entitled to our views. I wish you luck with this year'ss magazines, but please send me a copy because I haven't seen it for ages. As for Bode Swiller, thanks for your rather unpleasant remarks. I will now withdraw from this discussion because I can find plenty of unpleasantness on the ski club website without travelling here to find it. I hoped I was being helpful, but obviously I am not a welcome visitor. Good luck to you all and happy skiing. It was nice (for a while) to visit.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

jacksonhole, always a pleasure but I think you have much to contribute and you should stick around. It seems that if you dish it out round here you should expect similar treatment in return. Interesting that you're "not keen on the product" but "haven't seen it for ages".

maggi, exactamundo.

Bode Swiller, Hmm. So Snow magazine is fine because its advertorial is clear paid for promo. Never read Snow magazine (how can I get hold of a copy?) so I can't comment. But from your remarks, I deduce that, in turn, you do not read S&B either. Because of my work I always have a pair of vernier calipers by the computer. Sooo, in S&b, "advertorial" is in high contrast, bold italic font. Height of "d" t" and "l", 3mm. Height of other letters 2mm. Not inconspicuous, then. So, S&B has clearly paid for promotional content, too.

To sum up: Clearly paid for promo in Snow magazine - good. Clearly paid for promo in S&B - bad. Are there some issues you have with S&B (rejected articles?) you are not telling us about? Or have you not read S&B, but want to have an argument? If you are relying on David Goldsmith, bear in mind that he used to be on the staff of S&B's predecessor, and may feel that he, rather than jacksonhole, should have been the editor - and so may not be unbiased in this discussion..

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achilles, Pick mine up in Snow&Rock or Brighams Covent Garden. As for Lincs I'm not sure but there appears to be a big list at www.snowmagazine.com

It's not about S&B putting the word "advertorial", it's the fact that the whole section looks like editorial. Snowmagazine has described their 6 pages as being "advertorial" but they are clearly promotions with sponsors logos etc. And yes, you guessed it, my article was rejected because it didn't have enough pics of the editor in it Toofy Grin

Let's move on and let the market decide (although, given the puny sales figures talked about earlier, I think the market has already decided).

As for the other snowsports politics I really haven't a care who's who. All I see is the same old names cropping up year after year banging out the same old dreary resort guff.

Help!!

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