Every time you queue forty-five minutes for a fixed-grip quad at a major US resort on a $250 lift ticket, there's a number worth knowing. In the 2025/26 season, Italy, France, Austria, and Switzerland combined spent $1.09 billion installing new lifts.
The US and Canada combined spent $317 million. Europe invested 3.4 times more - in ski markets that are, in aggregate, smaller than America's.
Yes it does. The corporate ownership model comes at a price of inadequate infrastructure investment. You simply have to visit any reasonably sized Austrian resort to see how new gondolas,6 and 8 packs with idiot proofing put flagship NA resorts like Aspen, Deer Valley and Whistler to shame.
Now you could flip the question and ask in March and April is it overkill to have Euro lifts ski on and 1 pax per alternate 8 pak i.e. has Europe invested in overcapacity which is only needed peak weeks?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
That's a really interesting video if you are at all interested in infrastructure investment and long-term thinking of ski resorts. TY
Seems like then natives have had enough of $250 a day tickets.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Or possibly the numbers are all wrong, and the premise is wrong.
Europe has about 3x the numbers of skier days at c. 170m vs 60m (https://snowbrains.com/the-global-ski-industry-leaders-top-9-countries-by-skier-visits/)
It has about 4x the number of ski lifts 17,000 vs 4,000 (https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resorts/north-america/sorted/number-lifts/)
And spends proportionately more on lift infrastructure.
Now you could flip the question and ask in March and April is it overkill to have Euro lifts ski on and 1 pax per alternate 8 pak i.e. has Europe invested in overcapacity which is only needed peak weeks?
Nope. Best time to go (which you obviously know )
Even little Glungezer is having the really slow 2-pax fixed-grip replaced for next season. Should make that side of the mountain a lot more appealing.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Well best time if you're going to punch the cow without pesky kids getting in the way....
After all it is free
After all it is free
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Now you could flip the question and ask in March and April is it overkill to have Euro lifts ski on and 1 pax per alternate 8 pak i.e. has Europe invested in overcapacity which is only needed peak weeks?
I'd say that this is immaterial to the annual yield on Capital Employed and it's simply a matter of whether the operating costs are being covered. Given the numbers shared in the video, if correct, it appears that, no, they've not over invested and the rapid growth in summer trade is a gamechanger.
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@Blackblade, I agree I think. Big gondolas that can take bikes and buggies significantly change the summer demographic from the odd jingle jangle alpinist catching early bin of old.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, actually also the same thing with chairlifts. You can put mountain bikes on high speed chairlifts that decouple but not on old style fixed connection ones.
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No surprises here for anyone brought up in Europe. It explains a few things about North American infrastructure however, not least the absence of centuries of mountain living and culture.
We have discussed many times the trend towards gondola lifts in Europe to facilitate all year/all user access and to climate proof the mountains.
Has it not always been the case that the more affluent European countries have always been more forward looking and delivered higher quality infrastructure than the US ?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
There were loads of videos on SM this winter of a resort (or maybe several) that had new 6 or 8 pax chairs installed, just like the ones in Austria, with the moulded seats, magic carpet, laser beams on the floor etc. They were going nuts for the future of chairlifts, where we've had them for years.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Europe invested 3.4 times more - in ski markets that are, in aggregate, smaller than America's.
What do you mean: "smaller"? Someone just said that the European stuff delivers 3-4 times the number of skier days. You can't both be right. One of you is wrong. Well, both sides could simply be wrong. I suppose that's more likely. I mean: if you can't afford a lift ticket, you're probably not terribly good at the whole "business" thing. Which exists, you know, to make money.
Niseko has 14 2 man fixed grip lifts, but people want to complain about N America
In Europe you have a lot of resorts very close to each other. I'm sure this competition has sped up lift infrastructure improvements.
There is also the question do customers care? I did a season at red mountain which only has fixed grip lifts. I don't remember ever being too bothered, or others complaining. There were hardly ever queues so the capacity wasn't really a problem. I guess for smaller resorts like that with no local competition there is maybe little need to upgrade. Clearly in Europe the toothpaste is out the tube and people expect fast (and maybe even heater ) seats now.
Also we need to get away from the clickbaity "$250 for a day". Firstly Vail is now $300 per day so you are underselling it But really, you just by an epic local pass for $783 and get pretty much unlimited skiing. Most doing 10-12 days will getting cheaper skiing per day than the Brits doing 2 weeks per season.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
snowdave wrote:
Unlike the youtube bloke (AI?), I've posted my sources. ...
True: I'm sorry, I should have said that I'd be backing your analysis if I had to take a punt, because you posted references and had done some research into what seemed an unlikely narrative. Sorry.
I didn't come down one way or another as I'd not checked the references or watched the video. But the OP's claims sound like nonsense.
-- --
I ride lots of places, and I've never noticed much difference in lift infrastructure in terms of it getting in the way of riding. They all work, and are clearly architected for the local conditions/ market etc. I'd go as far as to say I'd hate it if Iceland or Finland or Chile or AB or BC was forced to have similar lift systems to Europe! Come on, they're completely different places.
People like @stanton have not understood how to buy tickets, but I also think they haven't understood the whole "slope safety" thing.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
phil_w wrote:
People like @stanton have not understood how to buy tickets, but I also think they haven't understood the whole "slope safety" thing.
“People like @stanton”
Why any long time forum participants bothered to respond to his post in the first place always puzzled me. But, clearly there’re some people believing Europe is superior than North America, and new fast lifts are just another point scored.
The subsequent arguments are quite entertaining.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
In my experience, the North Americans put lifts in the right place. For example, Kicking Horse, BC, Canada. When I was repping the resort at the Snow Shows in the early 2000s most of attendees dismissed it because it only had 4 lifts. They felt that it wouldn’t be big enough for them based on that number.
Plus is it just down to the European lifts are older and have come to the end of their life cycle?
Hmm Kicking Horse is a prime example of underinvestment in lifts. The resort never took off as planned and AIUI the masterplan was never built out in terms of lifts. The result is people wanting the more advanced terrain are stuck with Stairway or Gondi laps and most lines require the latter.
Of course the flipside is great and less trafficked hike to terrain like Terminator ridge. But the feel in terms of infrastructure is more like a La Grave than a full Euro resort.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yes, customers do care about the infrastructure, but how much they care depends on their circumstances. For example, until a couple of years ago, popular Innsbruck resort Axamer Lizum had a 4-pax detachable to access the mid-mountain and a 2-pax fix to the top. The alternative was the funicular, which goes from a bit above the car park (needs a few minutes walk) to the top. Anyone that knows the mountain will remember that all 3 pistes from the top (blue, red and black) are all really quite steep and not particularly suitable for beginners or nervous skiers. A chat with a friend who had small kids at the time revealed that while he really liked the area, it was completely unsuitable to access with his children, due to the combination of chair lifts and steep terrain, so he never took them there. The two chairs have now been replaced with a gondola, with the mid-station moved to a better position on the mountain, and it is much more accessible.
Blimey when I went to kicking horse thought the lifts were flash AF
It’s a treat for me getting to sit down on a lift and not having to wear a climbing harness and gardening gloves
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
phil_w wrote:
People like @stanton have not understood how to buy tickets, but I also think they haven't understood the whole "slope safety" thing.
I do but I dont (buy lifts tickets) for many many seasons.. Lifts = Lazy = Fat
Skin up , earn your turns !!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
abc wrote:
Why any long time forum participants bothered to respond to his post in the first place always puzzled me. But, clearly there’re some people believing Europe is superior than North America, and new fast lifts are just another point scored.
I detest modern lift systems especially Gondola's because you have to unclick your ski's.
I rarely use lifts nowadays unless I get a freeride up the hill
By choice I prefer old slow fixed grips, or rope tows out in the fresh air concentrating .. These types of lifts keep you alert and not develop lazy (tired) legs..
Some of North America's (and I done multiple seasons over there when the max I ever paid for a walk up Day ticket walk up $38 ) still hold onto their fixed grips which is the Cheapest type of Chair lift money can buy and they keep turning for decades with minimal maintenance, unlike the modern systems with sensors everywhere and constant SW/FW updates.
Why are American Ski Tickets so expensive?? Could it be that every lift has 4-10 employees working them compared to 2 -3 in Europe ?
I do not think so because it was same numbers back in the 80's/90's when tickets were way more affordable the lifts still had 4-10 employees ..
US Ski Ticket Resorts have priced themselves to attract only one demographic of Society ... SAD.
In the 80/90'S you hardly heard or saw any Europeans on US ski slopes
That all changed after around year 2000 ..number increased rapidly with many more flights & tour operators offerings and independent/solo trips ..
Now with the High Ticket prices they have alienated & eliminated virtually all their European & Australian visitors which were growing very strong between 2000-2020..
""For Casual and Destination Skiers: The "window" or day-skier has suffered the most. Those who simply want a spontaneous weekend getaway bear the brunt of corporate profit-seeking""
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I went to Banff several times in late 90s/ early 2000s (and once to Vail). Plane and lift tickets seemed cheap, there were snakes of Japanese school children in matching orange/yellow and black suits, I would pay for a week of lessons. I never noticed lifts TBH.
Ten years later, no cheap tickets, no Japanese, no discounted week of lessons. I asked someone at the window why, they talked about targeting different audiences, I think to attract more locals.
To comment that, if lift types are aimed at different demographics, the demographics can change over time.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Hmm Kicking Horse is a prime example of underinvestment in lifts. The resort never took off as planned and AIUI the masterplan was never built out in terms of lifts. The result is people wanting the more advanced terrain are stuck with Stairway or Gondi laps and most lines require the latter.
Of course the flipside is great and less trafficked hike to terrain like Terminator ridge. But the feel in terms of infrastructure is more like a La Grave than a full Euro resort.
Forget the lifts, what about the road up - 1 lane bridge over the river and no bridge/tunnel over the railway track meaning you can get stuck waiting for some never ending freight train to pass
I personally love the lift set up at kicking horse, but accept it's very marmite.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Now you could flip the question and ask in March and April is it overkill to have Euro lifts ski on and 1 pax per alternate 8 pak i.e. has Europe invested in overcapacity which is only needed peak weeks?
It probably is. The problem I see of Europe is the uplift capacity far exceeds the space available for downhill skier “traffic”! So at peak time, the pistes are intolerably busy!
Whilst in North America, the crowds are stuck at the bottom of the lift instead of ON the piste. I’m not sure one is “better” than the other. But I know which one I would choose if I have to ski during peak period. I was painfully (literally) reminded about it this past season: I had a full IKON pass so I was “allowed” to ski on a mega resort during peak weekend. I was hit on piste! (Whilst in the past, I would had to hunt down some less expensive resort, with only a few rickety lifts during peak week. I would have been stuck on lift queues instead of having the luxury to be quickly whisked to the top but then had to dodge the crowds on piste)
Orange200 wrote:
To comment that, if lift types are aimed at different demographics, the demographics can change over time.
There’s probably quite a lot of truth in that.
Given the usage pattern, there’s no simple answers. Not enough uplift capacity during peak time vs empty chairs end of season. Of course they could have offered deeply discounted lift tickets during those off peak time. But seems majority of resorts had gone away from that?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Hmm Kicking Horse is a prime example of underinvestment in lifts. The resort never took off as planned and AIUI the masterplan was never built out in terms of lifts. The result is people wanting the more advanced terrain are stuck with Stairway or Gondi laps and most lines require the latter.
Of course the flipside is great and less trafficked hike to terrain like Terminator ridge. But the feel in terms of infrastructure is more like a La Grave than a full Euro resort.
That's true, but that was down to a combination of finance and lack of visitor numbers. The desire was always there.
And you have to realise that KH is only 27 years old. There are many resorts which are older with far older infrastructure.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
boarder2020 wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Hmm Kicking Horse is a prime example of underinvestment in lifts. The resort never took off as planned and AIUI the masterplan was never built out in terms of lifts. The result is people wanting the more advanced terrain are stuck with Stairway or Gondi laps and most lines require the latter.
Of course the flipside is great and less trafficked hike to terrain like Terminator ridge. But the feel in terms of infrastructure is more like a La Grave than a full Euro resort.
Forget the lifts, what about the road up - 1 lane bridge over the river and no bridge/tunnel over the railway track meaning you can get stuck waiting for some never ending freight train to pass
I personally love the lift set up at kicking horse, but accept it's very marmite.
Ha ha
The real estate people want to keep people on the mountain not down in Golden.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
That's true, but that was down to a combination of finance and lack of visitor numbers. The desire was always there.
And I'm fairly sure quite a few local skiers are more than happy about that!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mike Pow wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
Forget the lifts, what about the road up - 1 lane bridge over the river and no bridge/tunnel over the railway track meaning you can get stuck waiting for some never ending freight train to pass
Ha ha
The real estate people want to keep people on the mountain not down in Golden.
The resort may want that. The town of Golden would probably benefits more if people stay down in the village.
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
That's true, but that was down to a combination of finance and lack of visitor numbers. The desire was always there.
And I'm fairly sure quite a few local skiers are more than happy about that!
That’s why the town never improve the access. You see that in almost all the “old” ski resorts in north America. The town won’t develop anything to ease access because the “locals” don’t want “their” town to be overrun by visitors. Result is horrendous access to the mountain.
Stowe in Vermont used to be my favorite weekend destination. Good snow and challenging terrain. But a couple decades on, the resort expand considerably but the 1 lane road is still the same. It’s now a parking lot on weekends!
Mind you, a good portion of “locals” are recent settlers who want to pull up the drawbridge after they’ve crossed it.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Let me get this straight: some folks are bitching about North American lift infrastructure AND North American lift ticket prices. So let's install new lifts with heated seats and massage and see what happens to lift ticket prices?
Most NA resorts are winter-only. Much harder to achieve target ROI in four months. It's a business, get real!
I wonder our esteemed taxi driver thinks about the Little Cottonwood Cyn gondola*? Is $1 billion USD enough investment for ONE lift (and a parking garage) just to solve a (huge) traffic problem?
I prefer a detachable chairlift to anything else, as does everyone I've ever skied with. Leave 'em on and breathe fresh air.
I wonder if the fact that Doppelmayr and Leitner are based in AUT and ITA increases the cost of lifts in NA vs the Alps. "Free shipping"?
*(Far from a done deal at this point.)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The lift companies are headquartered in Europe. They have manufacturing and operational teams all over the world.
Different story for groomers and euro snow guns. Those things get shipped.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Scooter in Seattle, I'm not bitching about N American lift passes. The megapass model has worked very well for me ( and will only get better as Euro reciprocity continues to improve). I do think however that infrastructure projects are underinvested and incredibly poorly executed. E.g. I'm familiar with Kirkwood which still largely runs on fixed grips and essentially has had no money put in by Vail as the redheaded stepchild. They don't even have a proper baselodge and the project to refurb the "tent" at the main beginner/family base commenced in December meaning no facilities all winter. That seems like frickin idiocy to me as they were losing $000s in missed hot choc and pizza sales every day as a result.
@Dave of the Marmottes, US ski resorts worked on a much thinner margin. For all the complain about long lift queues (which itself had been debunked many times, those “example” of long queues were almost always due to avi control delay after a storm), there’re far less crowding once actually skiing. Simply put, there’re far fewer skiers the resorts can make money from.
Many smaller resorts struggle to put in capital improvement which takes many years to recoup. Every year, there’re a few smaller resorts shutting down for good due to insufficient funds to upgrade badly needed maintenance on infrastructure (lifts, base lodge). With thin margins, every bad snow year hits the bottomline, and every fluctuation pushes the operation into the red, with no guarantee it would bounce back in good years.
Does North America have a lift problem? Maybe, or maybe not. As long as they’re safe, personally, I really don’t care if the seats are heated or not. Sure, it’s nice if it’s there. But I just don’t care. And when I cross the pond to ski in Europe, I’m not going there because the lifts have heated seats!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yet the not enough cashflow doesn't really apply to the megapass corps but they still botch execution e.g. the main base lift at Copper that was newly installed but not functional until after Xmas and NY a few years back.
We get it. Mom and pops live a precarious existence. But that's not what we are talking about. Glungezer as referenced above is about as far as you can get from a high volume destination resort and lots of users will be on an Inn valley pass but they have a newish chondola and are replacing the fixed grip.
Yet the not enough cashflow doesn't really apply to the megapass corps but they still botch execution e.g. the main base lift at Copper that was newly installed but not functional until after Xmas and NY a few years back.
The independent resorts also botch stuff up all the time. Chamonix has still not opened the new grand montets lift, the old one burned down in 2018. I don't remember them lowering ticket prices to account for one of their premier lifts being closed!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Well best time if you're going to punch the cow without pesky kids getting in the way....
No kids too during the latter 3.5 weeks of January?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Dave of the Marmottes, I agree that Kirkwood is perhaps the poster child of lift underinvestment, maybe the best example in NA.
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boarder2020 wrote:
The independent resorts also botch stuff up all the time. Chamonix has still not opened the new grand montets lift, the old one burned down in 2018. I don't remember them lowering ticket prices to account for one of their premier lifts being closed!
The largest shareholder in the Compagnie du Mont Blanc is Compagnie des alpes, so I’m not sure I’d call it independent.
There was a reduction for season pass holders and a couple of free buddy tickets as compensation for the GM closure. You might not consider it sufficient, but to say there was nothing would be wrong.
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snowdave wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
The independent resorts also botch stuff up all the time. Chamonix has still not opened the new grand montets lift, the old one burned down in 2018. I don't remember them lowering ticket prices to account for one of their premier lifts being closed!
The largest shareholder in the Compagnie du Mont Blanc is Compagnie des alpes, so I’m not sure I’d call it independent.
There was a reduction for season pass holders and a couple of free buddy tickets as compensation for the GM closure. You might not consider it sufficient, but to say there was nothing would be wrong.
Like I said I didn't remember them lowering lift passes, but you are probably right and they at least did something. My point was more that if a premier lift went down in a Vail owned resort and it had taken them so long to replace it I think they would be getting way more criticism than Chamonix have managed to avoid.
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