 Poster: A snowHead
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Another fatality in our backyard and in an area I've skied a few times....and regulars will know that I'm often touring around the Trois Évêchés, but I'm sure that this is on the more extreme north-facing side where you ski back down towards La Grave via Les Hieres
https://www.data-avalanche.org/avalanche/1773606754053
A ski tourer dies in an avalanche in La Grave
On Sunday, March 15, at midday, an avalanche occurred in the "Trois Évêchés" area of La Grave. Two ski tourers were swept away. One of them died. The other, injured, was transported to a hospital in Grenoble.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Weathercam, level 3 down there?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Rogerdodger, yes, but there was far more snow on that side, which I think is classed as Oisans, and on checking that was still three, but you can see how windy it had been.
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Thanks for the meteo data @Weathercam, that weather system must have created a snow pack like the proverbial "mine-field".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| yes, assuming this wasn't triggered by them they could have been 5 minutes later or earlier and been absolutely fine. |
It’s hard to NOT assume they remotely triggered the avalanche. The timing coincidence is extraordinary!
This will unlikely to be ever known or determined, whether the larger number of skiers traversing at the bottom of that loaded slope contributed to the trigger. Or whether the avalanche wouldn’t have happened had there be fewer people traveling through the area.
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Some thoughts:
European Alps weather pattern
There seems to be a pattern of a sizeable dump late November/early December, then next to nothing for weeks. The top layer, after x weeks becomes trash aka persistent weak layer. There's an even bigger dump late January/early February. You've got a load of snow sat on a trash surface.
'Pressure'
There are far more people who want to ski off-piste (and can due to the improved equipment) these days so there's a certain amount of pressure to do it, when you can and especially after a dump. I can't remember the stat. but the vast majority of avalanches are recorded within 48 hours of fresh snow.
Avalanches don't respect gear, professionals or even local knowledge
Having all the gear, which is expensive and/or skiing with a guide, guarantees nothing. If you're under 2 metres of snow, chances are you've had it, even if you had a team of professionals ready and waiting. Avalanches can set like concrete. If in a significant avalanche, trauma may well kill you, before the avalanche even comes to a halt. Gear may well help in the event of smaller avalanches though and a guide (who is also under a certain commercial pressure) should know what does and doesn't slide 'normally'. (The first guide I ever skied off-piste with, a very well respected guide, died a couple of seasons later in an avalanche.)
In Verbier, this season, there was an avalanche that went over the piste that leads down to Carrefour, snapping trees either side of the piste, which was quite an eye opener. I've never seen an avalanche do that in 20 years. (Avalanches over the path back to Verbier side from Savolyeres, yes).
So, all in all, it's a yer pays yer money, yer takes yer chance situation. I don't see a practical alternative.
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Another report of an avalanche fatality https://avalanche.report/blog/at-07-en/14164 this time on snow shoes not skis. The party were clearly taking precautions, crossing the gulley one at a time and called in mountain rescue immediately but the the force of the snow was enough to cause fatal trauma. All happened in fairly "friendly" territory, in the summer this is very easy walking. The issue again is the weak layer which formed very early in the season and caused a significant slide despite a fairly minimal snow depth.
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| Nickski wrote: |
In Verbier, this season, there was an avalanche that went over the piste that leads down to Carrefour, snapping trees either side of the piste, which was quite an eye opener. I've never seen an avalanche do that in 20 years. (Avalanches over the path back to Verbier side from Savolyeres, yes).
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Not questioning your analysis but the big avalanche that took out the trees was patrol triggered after the huge dump. They do an incredible job securing the area. And despite that persistent weak layer, there were a lot less skier triggered avalanches than you would imagine considering the risk levels, the quick lift opening and the number of people going straight into questionable zones straight after a big dump.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A young Polish guy was killed in an avalanche just off-piste in Passo Tonale on Monday. It's hit home because I was skiing the on-piste run right next to it just last Friday. Rescue managed to get him out from under the snow fairly quickly and he was still breathing but died in hospital a few hours later.
The town had had a large dump of snow on Sunday but I guess the proximity of the run to the main piste lead to over-confidence. He was skiing with his brother at the time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Which piste? The black from the glacier? Struggling to remember side piste in tonale that would otherwise be tempting?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bastoncino wrote: |
A young Polish guy was killed in an avalanche just off-piste in Passo Tonale on Monday. It's hit home because I was skiing the on-piste run right next to it just last Friday. Rescue managed to get him out from under the snow fairly quickly and he was still breathing but died in hospital a few hours later.
The town had had a large dump of snow on Sunday but I guess the proximity of the run to the main piste lead to over-confidence. He was skiing with his brother at the time. |
Was all captured on the resort webcam. Quite chilling to watch.
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| prog99 wrote: |
| Bastoncino wrote: |
A young Polish guy was killed in an avalanche just off-piste in Passo Tonale on Monday. It's hit home because I was skiing the on-piste run right next to it just last Friday. Rescue managed to get him out from under the snow fairly quickly and he was still breathing but died in hospital a few hours later.
The town had had a large dump of snow on Sunday but I guess the proximity of the run to the main piste lead to over-confidence. He was skiing with his brother at the time. |
Was all captured on the resort webcam. Quite chilling to watch. |
Just getting his turns in, has a little crash, then enveloped.
https://snowbrains.com/19-year-old-skier-in-critical-condition-after-avalanche-buries-him-near-passo-del-tonale-resort-italy/
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You know it makes sense.
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Sounds like he's still with us, thankfully
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Prancing Eurosnob wrote: |
| Sounds like he's still with us, thankfully |
No, he died. As already mentioned earlier in the thread.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| 8611 wrote: |
| Which piste? The black from the glacier? Struggling to remember side piste in tonale that would otherwise be tempting? |
Yes, its the area of snow to the right of the black off the glacier.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Snow&skifan wrote: |
| prog99 wrote: |
| Bastoncino wrote: |
A young Polish guy was killed in an avalanche just off-piste in Passo Tonale on Monday. It's hit home because I was skiing the on-piste run right next to it just last Friday. Rescue managed to get him out from under the snow fairly quickly and he was still breathing but died in hospital a few hours later.
The town had had a large dump of snow on Sunday but I guess the proximity of the run to the main piste lead to over-confidence. He was skiing with his brother at the time. |
Was all captured on the resort webcam. Quite chilling to watch. |
Just getting his turns in, has a little crash, then enveloped.
https://snowbrains.com/19-year-old-skier-in-critical-condition-after-avalanche-buries-him-near-passo-del-tonale-resort-italy/ |
That is an absolutely horrendous / horrible video....
Appears from the tracks that his brother had safely skied the slope first?
Easy to see why a young (slightly in-exprienced) skier would be tempted by that slope.
It is an obvious fresh line. Everything around it has been skied without avalanche.
The subtle difference with that section:
i) It is a little steeper (35-50 degrees)
ii) Convex shape of slope
iii) Couloir appears wind loaded
Despite proximity to lift a partner with shovel and probe might have been able to save him 
Really upsetting clip.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 19-03-26 10:03; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@alex_heney, the snowbrains article said that the reports of him dying were incorrect 
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| Prancing Eurosnob wrote: |
| @alex_heney, the snowbrains article said that the reports of him dying were incorrect |
It has been updated to say he died
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Haggis_Trap, yes, just saw that. Very sad
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| Snow&skifan wrote: |
| prog99 wrote: |
| Bastoncino wrote: |
A young Polish guy was killed in an avalanche just off-piste in Passo Tonale on Monday. It's hit home because I was skiing the on-piste run right next to it just last Friday. Rescue managed to get him out from under the snow fairly quickly and he was still breathing but died in hospital a few hours later.
The town had had a large dump of snow on Sunday but I guess the proximity of the run to the main piste lead to over-confidence. He was skiing with his brother at the time. |
Was all captured on the resort webcam. Quite chilling to watch. |
Just getting his turns in, has a little crash, then enveloped.
https://snowbrains.com/19-year-old-skier-in-critical-condition-after-avalanche-buries-him-near-passo-del-tonale-resort-italy/ |
There is a reason why nobody else had skied it. It's a massively consequential line, if it slides you know it's probably going to go big and looks to be quite the terrain trap at the bottom. Very sad, but another example of very poor decision making leading to a completely avoidable death.
If he was a better skier he doesn't fall and makes the traverse before the avalanche. I do wonder how much lower risks are for good skiers who ski fast fall line than those going slow making big turns almost traversing across slopes.
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@boarder2020, I think you need to be a) aware that there is an avalanche coming for you and b) a world class skier to outrun a slide like that. Not something I would be relying on for safety. If he had not fallen he might just have been able to traverse across in time but I doubt it tbh, given that the rest of the slope also broke after a few seconds.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I suppose better skiers practise more, so any advantage you get from not falling etc is maybe neither here nor there. I think "being aware" whilst riding is something of an advanced skill - I look out for slough on steep stuff, having learned the hard way to manage that. I try to think of escape routes and all that, but probably that will not work.
No one is relying on such things, but as "hail Mary" things, that's what I'll be doing when I die in a slide.
But you're not "just getting your turns in" if you're off piste. You have to take responsibility for your own risks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
But you're not "just getting your turns in" if you're off piste. You have to take responsibility for your own risks.
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Exactly. The clue is that nobody had touched it. If you are at a resort and everything is tracked out yet you find a nice untracked area chances are there's probably a good reason nobody skied it. But there will be some talk about they were "unlucky", "within sight of a piste" etc. Yes it's a sad tragedy, but we need to start calling out these obvious mistakes to educate others about the risk and also demonstrate that off piste skiing can be done safely.
@Steilhang, I actually think most recreational skiers would panic and increase their likelihood of falling if they realised the slope above them was sliding.
I'm not suggesting "just ski fast" as a real strategy. But I do think there's probably increased risk to those that are worse skiers:
Wider turns - more likely to find a trigger point.
Slower - less likely to outrun/ski out if a slide starts. Also just more cumulative time in avalanche terrain.
Falling/extreme braking - putting increased stress on the snowpack.
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Powder snow avalanches can reach up to 300km/hour. Even Olympic downhill skiers only achieve about half that, so "ski fast" is only going to work for a very few, and only if they are sufficiently aware that they realise almost the instant it happens.
Wet snow avalanches are a lot slower, up to c. 40km/hour, so you might outrun one, but generally have so much mass and density that if caught you probably won't survive even with the right gear
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You know it makes sense.
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@ecureuil, Yet we see plenty of examples where people skiing fast "outrun" the slide. Here's one example: https://youtube.com/shorts/Q0l7mUDVF-Q?si=Y6-m00FiyHWlifM0
Here's another: https://youtube.com/shorts/xoN0r8LQwnU?si=gMmF7Ea4ByqLiqx-
One more: https://youtube.com/shorts/bCz8caXj3NY?si=Q6Fb4HzxPEU-9-zv
Not even including the iconic Liliequist backflip
Anyone doing slow controlled turns in any of those situations is going for a ride. Riding fast let them get away with it. Of course it's not a solution - the fact they were in that situation in the first place demonstrates big mistakes were made! The real solution is avoid being in a slide.
My point is skiing fast perhaps gives you more chance of escaping. Making slow wide turns with big braking forces and falls probably increases risk of triggering in the first place. A fast aggressive skier doesn't fall, makes the traverse, and doesn't get caught in that slide (maybe doesn't even trigger it).
Are more weaker skiers accessing backcountry now than previously? Probably. Is this due to better equipment making it easier? Or simply "advertising" and off-piste being fashionable? Or maybe it was just the bad snowpack this year.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| .... My point is skiing fast perhaps gives you more chance of escaping. Making slow wide turns with big braking forces and falls probably increases risk of triggering in the first place. A fast aggressive skier doesn't fall, makes the traverse, and doesn't get caught in that slide (maybe doesn't even trigger it... |
Agreed. Mine was more that there will be some circumstances where even that ability (to ski fast) is insufficient
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ecureuil, agree. Also largely depends where you are when the slide starts. If you are in the middle of it while the slope breaks around I reckon you have very little chance no matter how good a skier you are. Below... maybe, if you have an escape route. Maybe not
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So many people, I am guessing it is probably a popular spot and it was several different groups, rather than one huge one. Sounds like the rescue operation was pretty intense.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have mixed and strong feelings about much of the stuff that we talk about on this thread.
When we share opinions as to whether fast or slow skiers are more vulnerable in a slide we are in a dark place. My guiding light for many years has been a British/Swiss mountain guide who works from Leysin in the alp vaudoise, that should narrow things down!
In the last ten years I have read the fine works of Mr Bruce Tremper, in my opinion a gifted communicator on all things avalanche. Those of us who ski off-piste and ski tour we must preach the gospel of avoidance at all costs!!
Fast or slow skiing is in the realms of "tossing coins" to see if we live or die.
Recently, Caroline George UIAGM guide posted an excellent article on FB expressing her deep concern about folk deploying the air bag. This was associated with the significant slide right beside a piste in Verbier. I think Caroline had observed a near miss, but felt the escape was considered to be "quite a satisfactory" outcome.
Her point was simple... back to coin tossing, the air bag may be very effective at times but not 100% The best analogy I could come up with for air bag deployment was, when boarding an aircraft the attendant hands you a parachute....that airline would not stay in business very long.
Coming back to my mentor mountain guide, you get avalanched you have "lost control of your day,"
hopefully coming out of a slide alive but....no skis, 1 pole and rucksack lost! Hardly a convenient scenario.
I suppose I am on my soap box to say it's ok to be afraid, ok to state I'm not skiing that today, this doesn't feel right.
Earlier in the thread I was shot down for my remarks about the severity of level 5 avalanche forecast days. Again my understanding comes from reading and my mentor guide who always teaches that for skiers the risk level only goes to 4 and forget the next level altogether.
Perhaps this is the waffle of an old man....I'm 65 tomorrow I fully intend to stay safe out there and ski great powder when ever the "safe" opportunity presents itself.
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^ agree : the simple idea you can ski fast out of an avalanche is dangerously misleading. A ski cut might work in small terrain. However on larger open slope you have no idea what size of available might propagate. Avoidance a far better technique
Most mere mortals don't have the skills of Jeremy Nobis in a TGR film....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Rogerdodger, A very Happy Birthday tomorrow.
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Again I'm not saying "just ski fast" is a real strategy. As I've said countless times if you are in an avalanche in the first place you've already made big mistakes. The goal should always be avoidance.
My point is simply that slow skiers who fall, put in big braking forces, big wide turns traversing slopes etc. are probably more likely to trigger an avalanche. Those going fast and with higher ability probably give themselves more options to escape if a slide does happen.
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I think what's causing confusion here is the word "fast"? Maybe a better term would be smooth skiers? Because while a fast skier may very occasionally out run an avalanche, it's rare. But skiing smoothly without putting extra stress on the snowpack certainly helps. Especially if you aren't doing your own explosives control by constantly falling in the snow.
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@TOLOCOMAN, smooth skiers light on their skis with no edge digging. I saw a boarder release an avalanche after an unnecessary tight turn with deep edge cut into the pack.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If the difference between causing a slide or not is how light you are on your edges, haven't you already got yourself in the wrong place so the mistake has been made?
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@SnoodyMcFlude,
You’re correct in principle, if your goal is zero avalanche risk, then yes, you simply wouldn’t be in that terrain in the first place.
But the reality is that most people heading out after fresh snow will inevitably move through a mix of terrain: some very safe, some moderate, but also pockets of higher risk.
In those moderate and especially higher risk areas, technique and decision making really matter. Sticking to ridge lines, avoiding convex rollovers and loaded slopes, and if you have to ski them, skiing lightly and smoothly rather than aggressively loading the snowpack, identifying islands of safety, avoiding terrain traps, and skiing one at a time do all make a meaningful difference.
These approaches do not eliminate risk, but they can significantly reduce it. That is why they are worth reinforcing, because in the real world most people are not operating in a binary safe versus unsafe environment, but managing risk as they move through it.
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FAQ
