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More confused than ever. What label am I?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Delighted to get the first "Powder" mag of the season thru yesterday's letter box. Interested in the kit. MOre bemused than ever at how the skis are going and totally non-convinced.

Even more confused by the boots.

Example - " The Rossignol Bandit B-Squad Plug Freeride Boots are one of the highest performance ski boots on the market."

Apart from all the marketing bollox, these are rated stiffness "120/130".

How do they compare to the Rossi race "plug" boots? Am I a racer or a free rider? Do I want a stiff or a soft boot to land a 225 foot cliff? Should I just decide based on colour, in which case does "green transparent" clash with SOS "Apple Green"? Would I be more harmonious in Salomon boots that are "red"?

On a more scientific note, I see that Lange are suggesting "no energy loss between boot and ski" for their "Race 150" model. I think they should apply their presumed snow temperature super conducting technology to saving the planet rather than these silly snow sports myself. And given that the "race 130" in Europe (well Italy anyway) was typically by special order, just who do they think needs a 150 stiffness? Or have they, in lira-like fashion, devalued boot stiffness? Even more surprising, apart from the colour, these appear to be Lange ZRs from 1983 repainted turquoise?

Now I've found the Rossi Radical Plug boot. Rated only 120/110 are these less radical than "Bandits"? I suppose that makes sense as Radicals become Revolutionaries become Bandits become Fundamentalist Terrorists - maybe the marketing department kicked that one into touch?

So why then, specifically, are the Bandits nominally stiffer than the Radicals when the Radical range is the race/detuned race range and the Bandit is the "recreational" range?

Shurely shome mishtake? (Mine's a Staropramen...)
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It gets worse...

"The Salomon Falcon X2 Lab is one of the most sought after Race Plug boots ever made. Like the Falcon production boot, the race-stock Lab has one of the best anatomical fit of all the plugs we tried. Its Enzo-red and fast, but unlike a Ferrari, you can actually drive (and afford) it."

Really? Never heard of it. Anatomical fit? - you have got to be joking. No wheels so I reckon it's a crap drive. How do you know I can't afford an Enzo? Who writes this drivel?

Ah, but here we go, THE boot for 2007,

"The Diablo Race Pro is the successor to the XT series and represents a paradigm shift in Tecnica race boot design.
This boot skis extremely well."

Fantastic. At last a boot that will ski me home. Long lunches here we come! Where do I program in the GPS reference?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
David Murdoch wrote:

How do they compare to the Rossi race "plug" boots? Am I a racer or a free rider?


Quick snowheds poll: 64% of the audience thinks you're a freerider 'cuz it sez so under your name.

Quote:
Should I just decide based on colour, in which case does "green transparent" clash with SOS "Apple Green"?
Most horribly. You definitely need indigo in there somewhere.

Quote:
And given that the "race 130" in Europe (well Italy anyway) was typically by special order, just who do they think needs a 150 stiffness?


Spoken like a true lightweight. Put on ~40 lbs and we'll talk. wink

Quote:

So why then, specifically, are the Bandits nominally stiffer than the Radicals when the Radical range is the race/detuned race range and the Bandit is the "recreational" range?


A racer is supposed to be trained, i.e. without the FR beer gut. wink
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comprex, I do need indigo but I'd prefer not to acquire the additional 20kgs. I was always advised to ski "moufle". +20kgs would make that 25% harder wink

Laughing Laughing Laughing
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You just edited...! BUt ha ha yes you're right! So FreeRide (generally) means lardy-ass? Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Quote:
Fantastic. At last a boot that will ski me home. Long lunches here we come! Where do I program in the GPS reference?


Personally, I'd settle for a boot that could cope with the vagories of the Flaine lift system...

Perhaps gimmick of the season has to be:

Quote:
ATOMIC TRIPLETS URBAN

Some sibilings bicker and argue, but these Triplets just make each other better. For the price of one set, you get three boards. That's an equation all punk-ass kids know* Pure twin-tips, the Triplets also come built to pop in the park and to withstand abuse...


Personally, I'm all for it - after all a tripoidal based approach to skiing is all the rage, I hear. And sooo much more stable that the way I'd previously skiied.

I am, of course, now waiting for:

Quote:
ATOMIC TRIPLETS LEGGIT Plus ONE

Some old-schools sneared when Atomic released those punk-arsed Triplets Urban. Maybe it was their DNA, or maybe the were JUST TOO OLD to get into the tripoidal groove with the rest of us. For the rest of us ATOMIC have released the crazy, mixed up LEGGIT Plus ONEs...


* only those punk-ass kids educated under the old fangled grammar system of course...

On a serious note. Is any of this utter...utter...well...rubbish supposed to count as a review? Or is it some form of language I don't speak... Eh oh!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
David Murdoch, The Lange/Rossignol real race boot was 150 or160 flex. It is a bit different to the ZR, the sole is a bit thinner under the instep.

The Course X2 Lab is the standard Salomon race boot. The Falcon bit is new, but without pictures it is hard to tell if anything has changed.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
David Murdoch, these people are selling lumps of moulded plastic and strips of kitchen work top at what one might politely call inflated prices. They have to say something about them!
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Green boots....??? WTFGO...!!!!!
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PhillipStanton,

Triplets are last season's news & plenty of last year's were/are still available on close-out. I'd expect Atomic to quietly drop them next year after they've shifted this year's already commited production. OTOH the Sweet Daddy was also readily available at close out & that was a very well reviewed ski so either that also failed to find a niche or more likely I know nothing about ski markets/marketing.
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JT, thanks!

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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
David Murdoch, Most of today's "plug" boots are somewhat based on the original Lange XLR last form. The current Lange/Rossignol range uses a shell shape (known as the RL 11 form) that has somewhat evolved and is actually quite different to those made in the past few years.These modeles are made in a variety of different flex's but all use the same mould. Stiffness's are ZA, ZB, ZC, ZE and ZI, with ZA being the softest and ZI being the hardest, although the last two boots are only available if you are a national team skier. The upper and lower of the shell are often mixed and matched to provide intermediary stiffness's. These shells are found in both the "Race" and "Freeride" ranges using different colours and often different liners. Boots of a similar flex but of different colour may have differences in stiffness as the colorant used to colour the neutral plastic has a significant effect on the stiffness of the finished product.
Now to Salomon, the Falcon X2 Lab is the same shell as the Course X2 Lab, there are just cosmetic changes with new buckles, powerstraps and a totally new liner (exceptionally good). The consumer Falcon range however, is completely new, and uses a new last which is somewhat narrow, with less volume over the instep and quite a narrow heel. They are also slightly longer internally than previous models for extra toebox room. All in all, a highly anatomic and very reactive boot, although the Falcon Race (not to be confused with X2 lab) is very stiff and only suitable for very strong skiers.
Tecnica have indeed produced a fine effort with the Diabolo Race Pro although rearward support could be improved, but as many have stated before, choosing a boot is a very personal matter and depends on many factors. When wishing to buy this kind of boot (plug), the most important of these is to seek out a technician who will be willing to spend time dialling them in properly. Most of these boots will require quite extensive work (grinding, stretching etc...) in order to perform correctly and fit well. Don't forget that communication with your fitter is all important and DO NOT overestimate your ability or you will findyourself rapidly in the backseat. For those interested please contact CEM, SZK or myself (eh sweety boy).

Phew, glad i got all of that off my chest rolling eyes
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
LARGEZOOKEEPER, Phew, thank you. I need to dial in a sess with one of you *ZKs for early season (October?).

Now that I've woken up and been to the gym (self righteous or what?) I find I can quite easily remove my tongue from my cheek where it clearly and unfortunately jammed itself last night.

PhillipStanton, do you mean my rubbish or the rubbish quoted from someone's marketing department?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Certainly not your rubbish David Murdoch - although I'm sure, given time, we'll find some of each other's rubbish to take umbridge with Very Happy

I opened my copy of Powder and was completely bemused. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really do like my writers to, well, add value through their prose - rather than just passing off some thinly disguised marketing rubbish as...well...I don't know what...

I'd rather hoped that a "Buyer's Guide" would provide, well, guidance.

But now I'm ranting. I'm obviously in the wrong demographic for Powder. And I should, maybe, just stick to the nice pictures.

Which reminds me, I must order those low-cut sallopettes to allow me to show my pants properly when I ski...
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
comprex,

Look nice.. I just couldn't tho'

on the basis that my booits last me a few seasons and if I hate the colour in the 1st instance it would drive me crazy thereafter....

What else is new....??

DM, Got a hangover..?? Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
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David Murdoch, Of course if we can keep at ZOOKEEPERS in general to come over for the PSB .... wink All sounds ridiculous to me - thank god I'm sorted now!!! Very Happy BTW, when I move from the OK silver shells to the utterly revolting bright yellow ones, will I be more or less cool?? Puzzled
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easiski wrote:
BTW, when I move from the OK silver shells to the utterly revolting bright yellow ones, will I be more or less cool??


easiski, just stay in the deep powder Laughing
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
PhillipStanton, Phew!

I bought Powder in the first place for the piccies and am now disappointed with the content. It's "Freeze" for me next time...!

JT, Hangover? Moi? Surement non!
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David Murdoch, Sound to me as if Powder have got alot of stuff mixed up, LZK has touched on a few of these things. I can't see the point of ski boot reviews, fit is too personal. Evil or Very Mad
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richmond, I think you may find that making boots is actually much more expensive than making ski's. Although the primary materials are relatively cheap there are a few small questions relating to R&D, mold making and the costs of large injection moulding presses. All included, a single shell shape in a full size range will incur preliminary costs of approx. 750,000 Euro's minimum Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked
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LARGEZOOKEEPER,
how many units is that?
how is size distribution calculated?
different shell shapes- different size distributions?
and how do I get to be the krezy eetallion dood in charge of colours?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
comprex, That's before ANY boots are made, just research and mold costs. When you say size distribution, do you mean how many are made or how the sizes are calculated ? I am just off to Portillo right know, I will give you a complete answer when I arrive on saturday Cool
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
LARGEZOOKEEPER, Right KNOW!

Bon Voyage. You want to buy me lunch?
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Please excuse my ignorance but, what is a 'plug' boot?
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John Scott, basically it's a race one. Not the kind you find in S&R.
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Any idea why it is called 'plug'?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
John Scott, I believe (but caveats apply) that it is because the shell mould is fitted with a “plug” to make the shell walls thicker and the boot more responsive.
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Can someone please explain

How flex is calculated ?

How do the numbers correlate to LZK's Z classifications ?

What the numbers actually imply ? ( apart from one number is stiffer than another)
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Latchigo, (UCA), flex is a figured dreamed up by companies, and does not have a standard, so one manufacturer's flex 90 could be stiffer than another's 110.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
John Scott wrote:
Any idea why it is called 'plug'?

The mould around which the lower shell of the boots is formed is called a plug. A 'plug' boot is the name given to boots (usually race boots but all mountian skiers like ssh are now going for them) that have been made with a lower volume plug to give a lower volume boot with a thicker wall.

Plug boots will require internal grinding & punching to fit properly & will often have a very thin liner - all of which is designed to give a super snug fit for maximum feel. Not much insulation either so not the route to go if you suffer from cold feet.

Fitting is a long process so if you want a pair best book a week in Chamonix as you'll be seeing SZK every day.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 24-08-06 13:24; edited 1 time in total
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Latchigo, I recall a while back that SZK posted something about the possibility of a future flex standard to be used by all manufacturers. It was something like the force required to flex the cuff through 10 degrees.
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the term "plug" I believe is an kind addition to our language by the same nation of non-english speakers who gave us "weapons of mass destruction" and Donald Rumsfeld.

A somewhat meaningless term I take it then, as all boots are formed around plugs?

spyderjon, Would that test be subtle enough to grade smoothness of flex, etc.? Wouldn't you also need a standard for how tightly fastened the boot is?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spyderjon, Exactly. The flex referance is: Complete Boot and liner. Flex the boot through 10 degrees(angle) at 24 degrees(temp), 30,000 times. The flex is then measured in Kn. Therefore a Rossi/Lange W/C-Radical with a flex of 150 requires that amount of force to be flexed 10 degrees.

Temperature, liner type and tightness of buckles will all effect the flex of your boots, so unless your are either extremes of the scale, don't worry too much about flex, let us worry about it.

Wear The Fox Hat, This test is now 90% standard. Before this winter, 0%.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, it's now 90% adopted? that's excellent. After 30,000 cycles, how do they keep the shells from heating up? Or even melting?
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David Murdoch, It's a heat controled environment. Do you mean in terms of friction? Twisted Evil
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, yes, friction
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David Murdoch, The test is faily slow, not so much steamtrain as soothing massage, you get me?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
..... This test is now 90% standard. Before this winter, 0%.

SZK, that would be why Tecnica's website lists the flex index for their 06/07 models as 'new flex' then?
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spyderjon, Tecnica were the pioneers of the test and lead the way for the assimilation of a standard.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, so you approve of my boot choice if not my ski core wink
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