 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Fede525, My guess is that those who are doing it have been the participants in race training programs with coaching.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My guess is that those who think it's the be-all and end-all of skiing are missing out on a lot.
The blog post is a great example of a complete waste of time. Setting an arbitrary target of "achieving the highest edge angle possible" without once addressing the question of why we would want to do so. It reminds me of Ali Ross back in the day who insisted[1] that one could, and indeed should, exclusively carve all the time, on all slopes and in all conditions. Effectively saying, we've got all these tools that we've learned over time, but now let's throw all the rest of them away and replace them with this single new (at the time) tool just because it's cool. Oh, and which you'll have to come back and have loads of lessons to have any hope of actually mastering.
[1] OK, that's exaggerating a bit for effect, and I mean no disrespect, he helped transform skiing for many many people, directly and indirectly. I'm just remembering one snapshot in time in the late 1990s where carving seemed to have become something of a mantra, and not just with him.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| My guess is that those who think it's the be-all and end-all of skiing are missing out on a lot. |
I'm inclined to agree.
If I was to list the skills an Advanced skier should prioritize, hip dragged carved turns would be at the bottom of it. If you are at a high level and want to work on this ability, then great. It will be a fun and technically difficult skill to add to your toolbox. How often you will get to safely use it, will be another matter.
Outside of a race course, race training, or top Instructors on a Youtube channel, I have never seen this level of skill displayed on the mountain.....and certainly not from recreational holiday skiers.
Is there a little jealousy in my view.....probably. On a quiet piste, I will crank up the speed, remain flexed through transition and see how low I can get my hip to the snow while remaining in control. A mixture of age, lack of the necessary skills and courage...mean I am some way off that ability. Does it worry me? Not in the least...but it is fun trying.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 31-01-26 10:36; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks for the valuable feedback, you are so right. I did not mention the reason for hip-dragging. I just added to the blog post this:
"But why do we want to hip-drag?
We seek hip drag to achieve almost horizontal legs, which allows us to reach the maximum edge angle possible. This lets us carve the tightest turns our skis can handle, making the most of their design and our technique. Hip drag is therefore a tool to push edge angle to its limit, not an end in itself."
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think you need to buy advertising here if you want to promote a website.
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| ...It reminds me of Ali Ross back in the day who insisted.. |
Ross didn't teach hip dragging. He didn't teach a style, he taught ski mechanics: how the sidecut worked.
The hip dragging are trying to perfect what they think is a "style". It's aesthetic and not necessarily functional.
Ross's approach was entirely functional. Totally different.
Hip-draggers are elevating what they think is style over function. That is very opposite of Ross's approach, whose text explicitly opposes that approach.
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@phil_w, Yes, you are perfectly correct.
It's the single focus of this that triggered the thought, but you are right to point out that this hip thing is nothing like what Ali was all about.
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| Quote: |
I think you need to buy advertising here if you want to promote a website
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The ski blog is for educational purposes only. Not selling there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
@Fede525, My guess is that those who are doing it have been the participants in race training programs with coaching.
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@AndAnotherThing.., IMHO, not all of them. I have 4-5 recreational skiers I train that can achieve hip-dragging turns consistently. And several others that have that "goal", and we train hard to achieve that...
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| Fede525 wrote: |
| Quote: |
@Fede525, My guess is that those who are doing it have been the participants in race training programs with coaching.
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@AndAnotherThing.., IMHO, not all of them. I have 4-5 recreational skiers I train that can achieve hip-dragging turns consistently. And several others that have that "goal", and we train hard to achieve that... |
How many weeks per year do these recreational skiers usually achieve in a season? How long have they been skiing? Did they start young?
Sorry for the questions....but I am intrigued.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Fede525 wrote: |
"But why do we want to hip-drag?
We seek hip drag to achieve almost horizontal legs, which allows us to reach the maximum edge angle possible. This lets us carve the tightest turns our skis can handle, making the most of their design and our technique. Hip drag is therefore a tool to push edge angle to its limit, not an end in itself." |
But why do you want to achieve the tightest _carved_ turn, when the rest of the ski teaching world is happy to do (semi-)skidded short turns which allow a much tighter turn anyway? And with much less effort, I might suggest, as well as a greater ability to vary the turn shape, to take avoiding action, for example, or to make the next slalom gate at a better angle (or just to make it at all if it's closer than your ski radius would allow).
"push the edge angle to its limit" still seems like an entirely arbitrary goal, an end in itself.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's definitely an "in thing" to want to be able to hip drag, I do @Old Fartbag, see occasional skiers displaying that level of carving on the mountain, but agree not many!
It's also hard to find an empty slope with the right snow conditopns to practise carving on these days!
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| kitenski wrote: |
| It's definitely an "in thing" to want to be able to hip drag, I do @Old Fartbag, see occasional skiers displaying that level of carving on the mountain, but agree not many! |
You probably get to ski more weeks per season than me (not hard), which if correct, increases the opportunity to witness it.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Old Fartbag, the average number of days per season for these “hip-draggers” is 20–40. Sometimes they train with me in South America and Europe (double season).
They’ve been skiing for an average of more than 10 years. That said, I had a student who started at 21 y/o, skied the entire season — about 100 days — and achieved it in only 3 years… but he’s gifted, I think hehehe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@kitenski, I agree. You need empty slopes to ski that level... Above all, there are many intermediate skiers who don’t control their trajectory well, and who think that skiing well means going fast, almost straight down, making only a few very basic turns — a sort of downward “S” that they believe is proper skiing. And when there’s a skier making full turns, hip-dragging, using some of the piste width, they become very dangerous around these absolutely reckless skiers, who charge almost straight down and can’t avoid you, no matter how predictable your run is with regular and proper turns.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
It reminds me of Ali Ross back in the day who insisted[1] that one could, and indeed should, exclusively carve all the time, on all slopes and in all conditions.
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Just an additional comment to those above, as one who skied several times with Ali I can attest to the fact that he did say once, in my presence, "I'm not saying don't skid" 
Perhaps it was on this very occasion 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Fede525, Thanks for the link!
This is a great write-up for those who wish to achieve high edge angles, me included and I'm sure many others who contribute to the CARV leaderboard thread on here.
It's aimed at people who aspire to accomplish this and is by no means a statement of "you should ski like this", more an example of "how you can ski like this if you want to"
Performance carving is no the be all and end all of skiing, just another facet of what we can do on the mountain!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PS: I've bookmarked the link for future reference!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Fede525 wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, the average number of days per season for these “hip-draggers” is 20–40. Sometimes they train with me in South America and Europe (double season).
They’ve been skiing for an average of more than 10 years. That said, I had a student who started at 21 y/o, skied the entire season — about 100 days — and achieved it in only 3 years… but he’s gifted, I think hehehe. |
Thank you.
You are dealing with a group of Advanced skiers that are not really representative of your 6 days a season Advanced holiday skier.
If one is lucky enough to get multiple weeks per season and can afford regular tuition, then having the goal of achieving higher edge angles to reduce turn radius and thus increase control at high speeds, is very understandable.
I suspect these skiers already have decent Rotary Turn skills, leaving them competent in Moguls and Off Piste....so this is a logical step in their skiing journey.
I suspect your title was worded in such a way so as to provoke a discussion....which is no bad thing in my book.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Funnily I thought of Ali Ross too. Two fantastic courses with him 25 years ago.
These angles were the result of the overall teaching, not the aim in itself. Achievable on near empty Tignes pistes, when Januarys pre Pandemic used to be quiet.
Similarly on Snoworks race training weeks for ordinary punters (not kids going for Euro Speedtest). Carving through GS gates. Ordinary skiers in their 30’s to 50’s. So much achievable under great coaches.
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From Fede's article:
"Hip drag is therefore a tool to push edge angle to its limit, not an end in itself."
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Fede525 wrote: |
"But why do we want to hip-drag?
We seek hip drag to achieve almost horizontal legs, which allows us to reach the maximum edge angle possible. This lets us carve the tightest turns our skis can handle, making the most of their design and our technique. Hip drag is therefore a tool to push edge angle to its limit, not an end in itself." |
But why do you want to achieve the tightest _carved_ turn, when the rest of the ski teaching world is happy to do (semi-)skidded short turns which allow a much tighter turn anyway? And with much less effort, I might suggest, as well as a greater ability to vary the turn shape, to take avoiding action, for example, or to make the next slalom gate at a better angle (or just to make it at all if it's closer than your ski radius would allow).
"push the edge angle to its limit" still seems like an entirely arbitrary goal, an end in itself. |
Because it's exhilarating!!!
It's 40 years this year, since I first put skis on, I also ride motorbikes, the feeling of "getting over" is a real buzz, pushing the skis and your ability to the limit!
At 60, & a 3-4 week/yr skier, I've actually got bored with simply doing a series of parallel turns on a groomed piste, if that's all there was to skiing, I'd probably give up.
Pushing the skis to high edge angles, (I manage mid 60s according to carv, must try harder)
Skiing as many moguls as possible in the zip line.
Hitting the powder offpiste whenever possible.
Skiing certainly isn't all about carving high edge angles, but high edge angles certainly make skiing far more enjoyable.
At my age, I want to go hard while I still can, my time with good leg strength is limited, I want to make the most of it.
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@Fede525, It's an interesting article, I'm trying to work on more edge angle so will read and digest more fully!! Little video from a few days in Meribel where it tooks days to find the right slope with the right visibility, decent snow and no people, would be interested in your view. For this video my no.1 aim was to try and not skid the start of the turn and also finish the turn across the slope...
https://youtube.com/shorts/prN623Jf-sg
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I seem to recall though that the good Mr Ross pointed out that the thing is to learn to turn the ski, not to emulate one specific thing which those of us who can do that may exhibit.
His example was folk who thought that forcing their feet together would make them better skiers. His point was that getting cause and effect confused was unhelpful.
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Purely from a more academic interest, I have seen two approaches to achieving high edge angles.
Long Leg; Short Leg is a necessary step....so....Do you concentrate on Extending the Long Leg, or Retracting the Short Leg?
In your Blog, you said, "Extend the new outside leg to actively push ourselves toward the inside of the turn as gravity pulls us down".
In the other approach, like from Tom Gellie, Harald Harb and I think Deb Armstrong - It is about softening the Old D/Hill leg and allowing the body to Topple inwards. I know HH is dead against ever actively pushing against the snow, which IIRC he says is counter-productive as it pushes your centre of mass away from your skis, potentially causing a loss of balance (and I know he is a bit absolutist in his approach and dismissive of other approaches).
As a confused amateur, would you help by commenting on these 2 approaches. I have known for many years that you can transfer weight by taking pressure off the D/Hill ski or you can add it to the U/Hill ski. IMO. Although these 2 approaches may outwardly look the same, they are subtly different. Why would you choose one over the other?
I have learned over the years, that where skiing is concerned, there is no one "Right" way to do something...despite what some coaches dogmatically say.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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An interesting article, and also one that suggests the same things I've been thinking about/working on.
I think my own skiing needs more inclination at the top of the turn, I get the angulation on a bit early.
Low in the transition/cross under is something I've been working more on this season.
Here's this mornings attempt. It's a blue run so a bit flat for getting the hip right down on. (For a CARV reference, that turn was a 159)
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@swskier, You are looking good to my eye.
Big question....What method do you use?: Actively extending what will be the Long Leg to push yourself towards the inside of the new turn; or Passively retracting what will be the Short Leg and Toppling.
ILE: Inside Leg Extension
vs
OLR: Outside Leg Retraction
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You know it makes sense.
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@Old Fartbag, the only thing I really think about is trying to get my outside leg as long as I can. Beyond that, I'd say I'm fairly in the "flow state of mind"
One thing I've been thinking more about is the imaginary bump in the traverse before the new turn starts.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| swskier wrote: |
One thing I've been thinking more about is the imaginary bump in the traverse before the new turn starts. |
It's a good thought imo.
The pressure build up from the forces of the turn have to be released....It either pushes you up, or has to be absorbed by the knees - At least that's how I see it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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When I've thought about this from a GS point of view during my training, it's the speed of the lateral transition which is rarely spoken of. In order to make the arc a sensible size (ie hit the next apex\gate) you have to go from max angle to max angle very quickly over what feels like a big* range of movement. That means that you are having to make fast movements combined with delicacy picking up support from the new ski.
Appropriate equipment and strength are also pre requisites I'm currently missing 
* Not big enough in my case.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kitenski wrote: |
@Fede525, It's an interesting article, I'm trying to work on more edge angle so will read and digest more fully!! Little video from a few days in Meribel where it tooks days to find the right slope with the right visibility, decent snow and no people, would be interested in your view. For this video my no.1 aim was to try and not skid the start of the turn and also finish the turn across the slope...
https://youtube.com/shorts/prN623Jf-sg |
I couldn't see in detail bit it didn't look like much skid was involved. Are you measuring with Carv on that ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Fede525 wrote: |
| the sensations you get ripping a clean arc are amazing... |
Hmmm, this is some kind of fashion statement/influencer thing isn't it? You wear all black with fur?
Seriously, to me, it's a very limited/ing aspiration. Steep deep powder skiing? Steep deep corm skiing? zip-lining bumps (esp. slushy ones) all seem a lot more fun and a lot more challenging to me ... (esp. the bumps ...)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@under a new name, you're forgetting XC skate skiing, now that done well is absolute style personified, though not by me
@swskier, I wonder what the OP's Carv scores are?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Weathercam, no one with their surname on CARV, so I'd guess he's not a user. Not that many people are in the grand scheme of things.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
@Fede525, It's an interesting article, I'm trying to work on more edge angle so will read and digest more fully!! Little video from a few days in Meribel where it tooks days to find the right slope with the right visibility, decent snow and no people, would be interested in your view. For this video my no.1 aim was to try and not skid the start of the turn and also finish the turn across the slope...
https://youtube.com/shorts/prN623Jf-sg |
I couldn't see in detail bit it didn't look like much skid was involved. Are you measuring with Carv on that ? |
Yup, 129 on Carv, says 96% Portion of Turn carved overall. some as low as 80% some 98/99%
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Fede525 wrote: |
| the sensations you get ripping a clean arc are amazing... |
Hmmm, this is some kind of fashion statement/influencer thing isn't it? You wear all black with fur?
Seriously, to me, it's a very limited/ing aspiration. Steep deep powder skiing? Steep deep corm skiing? zip-lining bumps (esp. slushy ones) all seem a lot more fun and a lot more challenging to me ... (esp. the bumps ...) |
Have you tried it? Not much can beat it for piste skiing IMHO. (power, corn yeah but thats OP)
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@KenX, thanks Ken, I agree 100%. Keep ripping some arcs!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@tangowaggon,
| Quote: |
Skiing certainly isn't all about carving high edge angles, but high edge angles certainly make skiing far more enjoyable.
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I couldn't agree more... it is way more fun... 
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@Old Fartbag,
| Quote: |
Purely from a more academic interest, I have seen two approaches to achieving high edge angles.
Long Leg; Short Leg is a necessary step....so....Do you concentrate on Extending the Long Leg, or Retracting the Short Leg?
In your Blog, you said, "Extend the new outside leg to actively push ourselves toward the inside of the turn as gravity pulls us down".
In the other approach, like from Tom Gellie, Harald Harb and I think Deb Armstrong - It is about softening the Old D/Hill leg and allowing the body to Topple inwards. I know HH is dead against ever actively pushing against the snow, which IIRC he says is counter-productive as it pushes your centre of mass away from your skis, potentially causing a loss of balance (and I know he is a bit absolutist in his approach and dismissive of other approaches).
As a confused amateur, would you help by commenting on these 2 approaches. I have known for many years that you can transfer weight by taking pressure off the D/Hill ski or you can add it to the U/Hill ski. IMO. Although these 2 approaches may outwardly look the same, they are subtly different. Why would you choose one over the other?
I have learned over the years, that where skiing is concerned, there is no one "Right" way to do something...despite what some coaches dogmatically say.
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That’s a very good question, and I think the confusion comes mostly from language and emphasis rather than from truly opposite mechanics.
From a biomechanical point of view, long leg / short leg is unavoidable if you want high edge angles. The body has to move inside the turn relative to the skis, and that requires one leg to lengthen and the other to shorten. The debate is really about how we cue or conceptualize that movement.
When I write “extend the new outside leg to actively push ourselves toward the inside of the turn,” I’m not advocating a brute-force push against the snow. I’m describing an active management of leg length during the transition. Extension happens progressively, in harmony with gravity and ski direction, not as a sudden push that ejects the center of mass away from the skis.
The “toppling in” or “softening the old downhill leg” approach (as described by Tom Gellie, Deb Armstrong, and — in a more absolutist way — Harald Harb) emphasizes removal of support rather than creation of force. Biomechanically, this works very well, especially for skiers who tend to push too hard or too late.
Like most things in life, this is not black or white — it’s grey.
In reality, both movements are required and both happen: the old outside leg does soften and release, while at the same time the new outside leg does lengthen and become supportive as the body moves inside the turn.
In skilled skiing, these two actions are not contradictory — they are two sides of the same transition. Whether we describe the movement as “toppling in” or “extending the new outside leg” depends largely on teaching philosophy and on what the skier needs to hear.
In practice, both descriptions often lead to the same outcome:
the old outside leg shortens,
the body moves inward,
the new outside leg becomes long and supportive.
The difference is mainly pedagogical.
For skiers who are passive or late, thinking about extending the new outside leg can improve timing and commitment.
For skiers who over-push or brace, thinking about softening the old leg helps prevent excessive force and loss of balance.
So I don’t see these as mutually exclusive techniques, but rather as different ways of describing the same underlying movement pattern, chosen according to the skier’s tendencies.
And I fully agree with your last point: skiing is full of dogmatic statements, but in practice there is rarely a single “right” way to do something. What matters is whether the movement achieves the intended outcome — balance over the outside ski, progressive edge angle, and clean carving — without unnecessary tension or compensations.
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