 Poster: A snowHead
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There's a mindset which believes it's entitled to go as fast as it wants. I read two grown men on Facebook, both responsible citizens (in fact both clergymen) agreeing with each other recently that they, having set their cruise controls to 70 mph on the motorway, were being impeded by people just eyeballing their speedos, because the latter over-read speed. Unbelievable.
However, and without reference to that particular incident, people in a family group descending a narrow piste at a careful and sensible speed should travel in single file - I admit to my own version of road rage, riding a bike down a shared path, when faced with a family with two dogs dashing about on long leads, plus a pushchair, taking up the whole thing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
If they're skiers/boarders, that helps explain the reckless attitude of some speed merchants.
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Substitute "drivers" for "skiers/boarders" and you have exactly the situation on our roads - people adhering to the speed limit are seen as "getting in the way" of impatient self-entitled "special" people 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Origen wrote: |
However, and without reference to that particular incident, people in a family group descending a narrow piste at a careful and sensible speed should travel in single file |
Exactly, they may have been "entitled" but their own group was certainly clogging a pinch point as evidenced by posh boy nearly hitting a member of his own party when going to chase down the miscreant.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Exactly, they may have been "entitled" but their own group was certainly clogging a pinch point as evidenced by posh boy nearly hitting a member of his own party when going to chase down the miscreant. |
I didn't see it that way. I thought the skier on the left was independent of them and was overtaking the two of them, turning left to avoid a collision, because he(?) was already bit too close, wrongly expecting the mother to turn right sooner. He stopped because there was a collision, not because he was with them. If that's the case then mother and son were in line astern as [@Origen] recommended. If this is the case then the accident is 100% the idiot's fault even if the third party was a bit too close, and the son's only fault was to immediately chase after the idiot (a rush of blood to the head).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No excuse for the out of control idiot, of course.
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Can someone post the link to the video you're all discussing please?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
However, and without reference to that particular incident, people in a family group descending a narrow piste at a careful and sensible speed should travel in single file |
Exactly, they may have been "entitled" but their own group was certainly clogging a pinch point as evidenced by posh boy nearly hitting a member of his own party when going to chase down the miscreant. |
There is always someone who wants to blame the downhill slope user. It matters not at all whether they were indeed "clogging a pinch point". Plus looks to me like there is quite a bit of space available to skiers right anyway. Plus there is no excuse. None. Ever.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| zikomo wrote: |
There is always someone who wants to blame the downhill slope user. It matters not at all whether they were indeed "clogging a pinch point". Plus looks to me like there is quite a bit of space available to skiers right anyway. Plus there is no excuse. None. Ever. |
Clearly I wasn't offering it as an excuse for the idiot but given No of selfish idiots x Lack of any effective policing of behaviour, I obviously am rather more interested in the Protect Yo'self aspects of skiing than the righteous pompous power of "the law".
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@PebbleSea, Ah seen it now. Not a comment on the video but on the "Downhill" skier has right of way. There is one exception that @zikomo, has not mentioned, so for clarity.
Rule 5: Entering, starting and moving upwards.
A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again after stopping or moving
upwards on the slopes must look up and down the slope so that they do not endanger
themselves or others.
In simple terms, if you step into the path of my car without looking, it isn't my fault.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
There is always someone who wants to blame the downhill slope user. It matters not at all whether they were indeed "clogging a pinch point". Plus looks to me like there is quite a bit of space available to skiers right anyway. Plus there is no excuse. None. Ever. |
Clearly I wasn't offering it as an excuse for the idiot but given No of selfish idiots x Lack of any effective policing of behaviour, I obviously am rather more interested in the Protect Yo'self aspects of skiing than the righteous pompous power of "the law". |
I think you were actually blaming the victim(s) somewhat. Yes it makes sense to do what you can to minimise risks. The responsibility remains on the uphill skier however.
You use of "pompous" says it all really.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
@PebbleSea, Ah seen it now. Not a comment on the video but on the "Downhill" skier has right of way. There is one exception that @zikomo, has not mentioned, so for clarity.
Rule 5: Entering, starting and moving upwards.
A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again after stopping or moving
upwards on the slopes must look up and down the slope so that they do not endanger
themselves or others.
In simple terms, if you step into the path of my car without looking, it isn't my fault. |
You are of course correct.
Does not apply to this instance though....
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@zikomo, No and I said it didn't.
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You know it makes sense.
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@zikomo, the pompous applies exclusively to you.
Maybe I was attaching some responsibility to the cluster but that's the problem with the absolutism of the uphill skier "rule". You"re in a dynamic potentially dangerous environment and you want to entrust your safety to a rule that less than 50% of users follow consistently.
My late father while he still skied was hit fairly regularly. I skied with him one day and saw why. He would often veer suddenly and without warning to the other side of a slope to take a photo or some other faff. He was " in the right" but absolutely endangering himself.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, it's like marching on to a zebra crossing - your right of way won't help you if you're dead.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I cycle with a load of guys exactly like that.... "oh, a nice view, I must take a photo." SCREEEEEECH to a halt!! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@zikomo, the pompous applies exclusively to you.
Maybe I was attaching some responsibility to the cluster but that's the problem with the absolutism of the uphill skier "rule". You"re in a dynamic potentially dangerous environment and you want to entrust your safety to a rule that less than 50% of users follow consistently.
My late father while he still skied was hit fairly regularly. I skied with him one day and saw why. He would often veer suddenly and without warning to the other side of a slope to take a photo or some other faff. He was " in the right" but absolutely endangering himself. |
It seems you continue to understand plain English. Even when someone is agreeing with you.
Two things can be true at the same time. It is indeed completely the fault of the uphill skier, and it is the responsibility of any uphill skier to be able to avoid colliding with those below them on the slope (regardless of that those downhill users do). It is also not just sensible but necessary to minimise the risks by being aware of those above you on the slope and that they may not be in control/following the rules. I have no idea why you find that duality so hard to comprehend, but I did already agree with you about minimising your own risk.
This incident was not an accident. It was caused by the wilfull and dangerous actions of the uphill skier and contravened the skiers code. Clearly. Your response? The downhill skiers were clogging up the slope. Actual victim blaming. Not balanced in any way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| @zikomo, No and I said it didn't. |
Sorry I did not mean to suggest that you had. Merely that you were correct in pointing out my omission. I agree it is an important point that you make.
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Skiing is like driving...people need to remain in control, leave plenty of room between them and the car in front, srive at a speed that they can stop if they have to and to look ahead to anticipate issues.
In the video the uphill skier is going far to fast for the conditions (narrow slope, other people, congestion) and is totally at fault.
I hope that both were OK but the headache he will have experienced after a concussion serves him right.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@zikomo, I have no idea why you take the absence of long florid perp blaming, which is so obvious as to be redundant, as excusing that behaviour. Nor what you hope to achieve with your self righteous sermons every time the subject comes up. You should be street preaching among the blue run heroes and the lager monsters.....
And yes if you ever putting yourself in a situation where there is no room for an uphill skier to pass you are clogging the slope. Thus family or friend groups skiing in a bubble do endanger themselves. That is just as true as the fact there are dangerous lunatics on the slopes who do not have the skill,will or awareness to follow the uphill skier rule.
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Whoever it was in that video was hooning down and was a dreadful skier. How you can blame the “down hill” skier in that video is beyond me, whether or not they were in the way.
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@Hurdy, I think you are spot on there.
When I ski, I try to ski safely, try and be aware of what can occur, and I want to be in control.
I hate those icy cat tracks, where I'm only just able to control my speed and fret about the other people in front or coming behind me.
I've been the "silly old sod" floundering about at the pinch point, not because I want to but because a was out of my depth and having to creep through the moguls where it changed from a steep wide piste to a narrow roadway.
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I’m still recovering from having my shoulder fdddddd by someone hitting me from behind on 2 Jan.
Unhappy.
Looking forward to ski touring and avoiding other people entirely.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@zikomo, I have no idea why you take the absence of long florid perp blaming, which is so obvious as to be redundant, as excusing that behaviour. Nor what you hope to achieve with your self righteous sermons every time the subject comes up. You should be street preaching among the blue run heroes and the lager monsters.....
And yes if you ever putting yourself in a situation where there is no room for an uphill skier to pass you are clogging the slope. Thus family or friend groups skiing in a bubble do endanger themselves. That is just as true as the fact there are dangerous lunatics on the slopes who do not have the skill,will or awareness to follow the uphill skier rule. |
Weird. I already agreed with you. It is plain common sense to be aware of your surroundings and take appropriate action to minimise risks, including from those who may not follow the rules. I already said that.
But...
1. You don't actually know if all the skiers you see are together, and therefor "clogging the slopes"
2. Your do indeed apportion blame (again) to the victims for endangering themselves
3. The ONLY suggestion you make is that the victim(s) should have adjusted their behaviour
4. The uphill skier is very clearly at fault. He should not have been skiing in that manner. This is self-evident and it is contrary to the skiers code. I have no idea why you have a problem with promoting and suggesting enforcement of the skiers code. But you seem to. The only reason I can think of is that you are somewhat impatient and frustrated when other slope users impede your preferred speed or line on occasion.
5. I repeat that two things can be true at the same time. The uphill skier is completely at fault and should suffer some consequence as a result. The incident is also an object lesson in there being idiots on the slopes who only care about maintaining their own chosen speed and line, it is sensible to be aware of that and take reasonable precautions.
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Not the responsibility of downhill skiers to keep clear (excuse the racing rules of sailing reference) but it is common sense to mitigate for the risks caused by a speedy skier coming through from behind, especially on cat tracks. This might not completely protect you, but hopefully goes some way. For instance avoiding random turns, using poles is a good indicator of what your next move is, keeping an eye out up the hill at on entry points, and not stopping in stupid places.
I definitely am most fearful on cat tracks, particularly if trying to use turns to control my speed rather than snow ploughs, since turns use up more width of the track. The worst scenario is coming up behind a snow ploughing skier whilst being aware of a speedy skier or snowboarder who isn’t going to slow down being behind you.
I do wonder whether a lot of near misses that I see are ok because the overtaking skier is incredibly skilled or just lucky
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It constantly amazes me and Mrs MA that there are so many young skiers (most often groups of male youths) who hurtle past us at downhill racer speeds, who are barely able to balance properly on skis, never mind turn properly or stop in an emergency.
It definitely seems to be on the increase. Absolutely terrifying.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
It constantly amazes me and Mrs MA that there are so many young skiers (most often groups of male youths) who hurtle past us at downhill racer speeds, who are barely able to balance properly on skis, never mind turn properly or stop in an emergency.
It definitely seems to be on the increase. Absolutely terrifying. |
We happily do a bit of waiting 30 seconds at the edge of non-road pistes, for the traffic/very poor man’s Odermatt’s to pass. They always seem to come in clusters. Leaving a lovely, safer empty piste to do our thing.
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I'm sure skiing is becoming more dangerous. Las year in Madonna I saw the chopper landing on the same piste every day, and i was taken out from behind twice on same piste (with a few other nearmisses). Far too many people skiing flat out on busy pistes with no concern for others. Happened to me last week in Saalbach too. I even heard and saw him coming and turned away but he followed my turn and hoit me anyway 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Not the responsibility of downhill skiers to keep clear (excuse the racing rules of sailing reference) but it is common sense to mitigate for the risks caused by a speedy skier coming through from behind, especially on cat tracks.
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This makes sense.
Nobody in this thread has "blamed victims" and accusing anybody of doing so is unjustified. The guy who crashed into the "old lady" was entirely to blame, out of control, idiotic.
The separate discussion about how to use a combination of courtesy and self-preservation to reduce the risk of being thumped on narrow pistes was entirely reasonable.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Statistically that isn't the case - see data linked here before. Perhaps it's a perception issue, or something done folk are doing, as pointed out above?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@phil_w, if you mean that statistically it's not the case that skiing has become more dangerous - I wondered about that and raised it, in one of the many threads which have insisted that it is. Yes, there are some idiots around, as there are idiot drivers, and far more traffic. Road travel has certainly become hugely safer - but skiing statistics are not so reliable! I suspect it IS a perception - just like the perception that kids are in much greater danger "these days" of being abducted and killed by strangers. Not the case.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340878859_Incidences_of_Fatalities_on_Austrian_Ski_Slopes_A_10-Year_Analysis
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| The yearly incidence of traumatic and nontraumatic deaths decreased by 25.8% and 40.1% during the 10-year time period |
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| The overall incidence of ski injuries has decreased from 5–8 injuries per 1000 skier days to 2–3 injuries per 1000 skier days in the 1990s and the present evaluated injury rate in Austria is less than one injury per 1000 skier days |
The paper was published in 2020, so has no more recent data, but the trend has definitely been down over the last 30 years.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Origen wrote: |
This makes sense.
Nobody in this thread has "blamed victims" and accusing anybody of doing so is unjustified. The guy who crashed into the "old lady" was entirely to blame, out of control, idiotic.
The separate discussion about how to use a combination of courtesy and self-preservation to reduce the risk of being thumped on narrow pistes was entirely reasonable. |
+1. And to agree with some other comments, the amount of idiots seem to be on an alarming increase. But yes, it's all very well being 100% in the right with a broken collarbone. I make a conscious effort to avoid stopping in pinchpoints , or using up to much space on narrow tracks, and I try and keep by turns as predictable as possible. I often use a pole like a car indicator/hand signal when I am changing direction. And of course please all of you for your own sakes , have a really good look up the piste before moving off or rejoining the piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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And show, as you'd also expect, that as the major cause of accidents is speed/lack of control that the fatalities and bad accidents are skewed; far more males (and mostly young males) than females.
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@zikomo, I'm sorry your brain is unable to process the idea that it doesn't matter how often you self righteously demand everyone condemns a frikkin dangerous uphill skier, the chances of this stopping the next one behaving in that manner approach absolute zilch.
Sure your misplaced hectoring may eventually reach every single one across continents but in the meantime I'll continue to believe it's better to educate people on how not to become victims.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, in all honesty, neither approach is 'better', but at least the tone of your posts is tolerable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| KSH wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, in all honesty, neither approach is 'better', but at least the tone of your posts is tolerable. |
BS. His tone is terrible. And insulting. Even when I agree with him (as I have done several times). At least you are consistent though.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
@zikomo, I'm sorry your brain is unable to process the idea that it doesn't matter how often you self righteously demand everyone condemns a frikkin dangerous uphill skier, the chances of this stopping the next one behaving in that manner approach absolute zilch.
Sure your misplaced hectoring may eventually reach every single one across continents but in the meantime I'll continue to believe it's better to educate people on how not to become victims. |
Thanks for confirming. In your mind it was indeed the fault of the downhill skier, their actions (or inactions) are the real reason that they were wiped out. And we should not promote the skiers code (as there is "ziltch" chance it will stop anyone from behaving dangerously).
I am sorry you see it is "hectoring" when I disagree with you. I am sorry you see it is "hectoring" when I point out that there is a skiers code, it exists for a reason, and that factually the uphill skier was at fault in this instance. I am also sorry that you cannot see that I agree it is important to be aware of your surroundings and to ski in a defensive manner such that you minimise risks from those who do not follow the rules.
For the avoidance of doubt, I repeat that I agree with you that "educating people on how not to become victims" is valuable and worthwhile. I also happen to think that educating people on the skiers code is important. As is enforcing that code. Including by apportioning blame when injury is caused by breaches of the code. In many places (Switzerland and Italy for example) there are both civil and criminal consequences, which is indeed likely to help people to think twice before skiing in a dangerous manner. It is akin to driving, should we not teach and enforce the highway code because some drivers will inevtibaly not follow it? Instead we should only teach defensive driving techniques. It of course makes sense to do both.
Your comment about my posts on this subject being "self-righteous" is so ironic as to be genuinely funny.
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FAQ
