 Poster: A snowHead
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| Origen wrote: |
| Not sure what you mean by that, @Layne. It was on the 3V thread. I am suggesting they were mistaken. |
Yeah, it was anecdotal comment made by one person, was it not.
We've no way of verifying whether it was true or the detail of it. Was it all snow socks or just certain types. What symbols did the all weathers have etc.
The law (as per the roofbox link) is quite clear afaik - the posters anecdotal comment seem to cast doubt on it but no real hard evidence that I could ascertain. Happy to be proved wrong.
If for example a poster said "I was stopped by the gendarmes, he told me that no snowsocks were acceptable, it was chains only. And it was the same for everyone", that might be something to go on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Late to this chat but a simple observation, All season tyres regardless of being on a 4WD are useless compared to winter tyres with the snowflake. A common theme on the Ste Foy Facebook page after heavy snowfall sadly many do not understand the different . It’s the small zig zags that make all the difference.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Boris, No. M&S means nothing. 3PMSF is the thing.
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Full on winters are better than all weathers - I think we all get that.
But the best all weathers aren't that far away and are far superior to summers.
All of which is irrelevant to whether the gendarmes allow you to pass or not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was one of the many who was stuck in queue to the Les Menuires on Saturday. At this video from 0:40 to 0:50 you can observe crappy chains mounted on Peugeot. I was behind the other car which had the same chains mounted and it didn't go well. Chains broke down after just 200m and the car still continued up the hill. It didn't go well either as the car started to wiggle across the road, so i had to overtake it. I don't know whether it succeeded to arrive at their destination or not.
I didn't need to put on chains on Saturday as my car is equipped with proper winter tyres (Goodyear UltraGrip Performance 3) and my car has AWD. They let me continue without chains. Didn't have any problems whatsoever to reach Les Menuires. But i did have snow socks (EN-16662-1 compliant) and was prepared to use them.
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@Travelmum, you might be able to get some used ones on ebay or similar, just check the size is correct for your car. If someone changes their car, there's a good chance the chains won't fit the new one unless it is a very similar model, so they are often sold on, likely still unused.
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Also worth repeating that if you've never fitted chains, or have changed cars, it's definitely worth practising fitting them at home, making sure you know exactly what to do and noting which way round you fit them. The last thing you want is attempting to fit chains for the first time halfway up a mountain road. Cold hands, slightly frantic, unsure what you're doing - you don't want that.
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I am reminded that the reason I originally went for snow socks was that my Ford S-Max couldn't take chains. I have since upgraded to a Volvo XC60 and perchance a friend had a set of Autosocks that fitted that he no longer needed... So i continued with Autosocks. Til date, my journeys to resort have been at Easter... so less chance of actually having to use them and/or if it does snow I am not expecting a massive snowmageddon event!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting in the FB video that at 2:55 there is an Italian plated car but speaks English to the police. He has an abomination of a snowsock on his tyre - clearly totally fitted wrong. The police tells him he has to put chains on. I wonder if the request would have been the same if he had a correctly fitted sock on.
And what is that contraption at 3:20 !?
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| Le Grand Renard wrote: |
| Late to this chat but a simple observation, All season tyres regardless of being on a 4WD are useless compared to winter tyres with the snowflake. A common theme on the Ste Foy Facebook page after heavy snowfall sadly many do not understand the different . It’s the small zig zags that make all the difference. |
That's simply wrong.
All Season tyres vary hugely in their snow performance.
We came down from La Plagne on Friday in the middle of the worst of it. Volvo estate with Cross Climate 2 tyres on and at 25kph you could comfortably do an emergency stop (that was my test before deciding whether to bother with chains).
As it was, we got held up by cars with chains and socks on (which was fine).
Sure, there were locals with (I presume) winters on that were comfortable going down at 40 when we were doing 30 but I put that more down to experience of the conditions than either bravery or the tyres. I've a feeling they'd have driven my car down at the same speed as they were doing.
At the absolute limits, I'm sure there's a difference but for most people doing most journeys I'm not so sure.
To give you a clue of the conditions, I was more worried about bottoming the front of the car on the snow and being an accidental snowplough than the tyres stopping me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| swskier wrote: |
| @Scarlet, On Saturday we couldn't even get from the main road in Zillertal up to the Spieljochbahn in Fügen without putting the chains on. |
they sound like a waste of time, Get new ones. for reference i drive a toyota Proace versa and it doesn't miss a beat in the snow and ice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
Full on winters are better than all weathers - I think we all get that.
But the best all weathers aren't that far away and are far superior to summers.
All of which is irrelevant to whether the gendarmes allow you to pass or not. |
Yep, as I said before, some of our group with a hire car with winter tyres weren't allowed up the mountain without chains.
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| Richie_S wrote: |
| I am reminded that the reason I originally went for snow socks was that my Ford S-Max couldn't take chains. I have since upgraded to a Volvo XC60 and perchance a friend had a set of Autosocks that fitted that he no longer needed... So i continued with Autosocks. Til date, my journeys to resort have been at Easter... so less chance of actually having to use them and/or if it does snow I am not expecting a massive snowmageddon event! |
Ah, were you not in the Alps for the snowmageddon event last April (Easter week)? Unusual, but not unheard of.
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You know it makes sense.
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Some all seasons have the 3pmsf symbol incliding the CC2s inhave now and the kumhos before them. I suspect some dont meet the winter performance accreditation standards and dont have them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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All of the 4 seasons tyres I have bought have had 3pmsf symbol. Latest are Vredestein Quatrac Pro but have had others.A quick search on Blackcircles doesnt show any 4 seasons tyres without 3PMS
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Hells Bells, likewise, not seen any all season without it. Sure there may be some
Personal view is that for vast majority of us, all-seasons tyres and carrying chains is the answer. All seasons have place in UK and chains coz they’re your last resort.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Boris, our vredestein quatrac tyres were perfectly fine yesterday across the Lauteret. It had been closed on Saturday.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Hells Bells, yep I’ve used similar for last 10 years on disco and now on Kombi. They work
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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State of the snowsock 2:53 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Same contradictory remarks here, especially surprising ignorance about all-season tyres not having a snowflake/3 peaks symbol whereas most do. There is still a major question here about what police on those road blocks were asking drivers. Especially if the drivers didn't speak French.
I had winter tyres when I spent winters in the Alps but now, with a different car, I have Cross-Climates. Either way I would say I had "pneus neige" but I would not normally expect that to get me past a road block on a snowy transfer day - I'd expect to be required to mount chains.
Claims that cars with "winter tyres" (whatever are they? Tyres with the 3 mountain/snowflake symbol, like my Cross Climates?) will never be required to mount chains are just plain WRONG and seriously misleading. They are not legally obliged, as cars with summer tyres are, to have chains or snowsocks in the boot to drive through Albertville on a dry sunny day in early December, but they might well NOT be allowed to drive up on a snowy transfer days without putting chains on.
And the evidence from this weekend is that in those conditions snow socks are hardly worth bothering with as they might not be allowed.
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What we did see was "quatre roues motrices" et "pneus neiges" were waved through on a very snowy transfer day
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For 10 years I owned a set of EasyGrips for my Toyota, driving to Andorra, just in case. Never needed to fit them. The car is sold and they are still in my garage.
I now have another set, for my Tesla Y. I wonder if or when I will ever use them.
I really hope they work when I do!
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| Origen wrote: |
There is still a major question here about what police on those road blocks were asking drivers. Especially if the drivers didn't speak French.
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Not sure what they were saying at the weekend but I think the police are generally trying to just keep traffic moving. If you're local, in a 4x4 on winter tyres and are going part way up the hill, they might be more forgiving than if you're driving a UK car (with or without winters on).
If they're mandating chains on a particular road, they're not doing it for a laugh, they're doing it because they want to keep things moving and everyone safe. It's in no one's interests to be sitting in a car in a storm half way up a bunch of hairpins because someone half a mile in front is stuck and blocking the road.
We had socks and chains in the car on Friday but didn't need them. If there'd been an instruction to put them on, I'd have thrown the chains on (I've come to the conclusion that socks are pointless with Cross Climates as anything the tyres can't handle needs proper chains....they're only in the car because they take up no room).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Maybe it is because I am Norwegian, but I do not really understand the discussions about cross climates/ all season. There is no such thing in the real world. We have summer tyres and winter tyre. Huge difference. Just have two sets and change when required. Anything else is just nonsense.
Socks works really well most of the time, except when there is a certain type of half wet snow that is slippery. Then they get rather useless. I think this is the reason they insisted on chains last Saturday, it really was a very slippery snow everywhere!
When I was driving my 2WD car, I always had both both socks and chains in the car - putting the socks on is really easy and quick and I used the chains only when it got really serious. Now I have a 4WD with winter tyres of course, so no worries about anything except the idiots who get stuck in the steep sections and blocking the road.
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| Annecy ski tourer wrote: |
| Maybe it is because I am Norwegian, but I do not really understand the discussions about cross climates/ all season. There is no such thing in the real world. We have summer tyres and winter tyre. Huge difference. Just have two sets and change when required. Anything else is just nonsense. |
In the UK snow/ice is relatively rare - and it's even rarer for it to stay. So it's not commonplace to have two sets of wheels. However, we do still have seasons and in winter it can be wet and roads can get muddy or have leave mulch so a more suitable tyre can help. All weathers while being sub-optimal in both summer and winter can be a very good compromise. The best ones do a good job all year round. Equally, it can be useful for people who do one or two trips a year to the mountains.
As you say, it's probably because you are Norwegian. As it is for my wife who is from southern Germany.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| @Travelmum, you might be able to get some used ones on ebay or similar, just check the size is correct for your car. If someone changes their car, there's a good chance the chains won't fit the new one unless it is a very similar model, so they are often sold on, likely still unused. |
I've sold three sets of chains on ebay over the years.
Only one set were ever used
The others were only out the box for practice fits.
Have always used the Clack and Go ones
https://www.snowchainstore.co.uk/weissenfels-prestige-clack-go-m44-10
They are easy to fit on a nice dry day in the sunshine with practice.
In the dark and snow not so easy but a lot better than cheapo ones.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Annecy ski tourer wrote: |
| Maybe it is because I am Norwegian, but I do not really understand the discussions about cross climates/ all season. There is no such thing in the real world. We have summer tyres and winter tyre. Huge difference. Just have two sets and change when required. Anything else is just nonsense. |
In the UK snow/ice is relatively rare - and it's even rarer for it to stay. So it's not commonplace to have two sets of wheels. However, we do still have seasons and in winter it can be wet and roads can get muddy or have leave mulch so a more suitable tyre can help. All weathers while being sub-optimal in both summer and winter can be a very good compromise. The best ones do a good job all year round. Equally, it can be useful for people who do one or two trips a year to the mountains.
As you say, it's probably because you are Norwegian. As it is for my wife who is from southern Germany. |
The problem with changing when required in the UK is that it can be every other day. Last week it was -4, today it's 10 degrees. Next week it might be -4. The week after might be 13 degrees.
Winters would be a pretty poor choice for a lot of the UK for the winter period. They'd perform worse than summers for several months barring a week or two randomly in the middle where they'd be incredibly better.
That's why All Seasons are better in the UK and as loads have said, the snow performance of the best ones are good enough. Maybe they're not Norwegian winter good enough (or even every day across an Alps winter) but definitely good enough to drive to the Alps and head up or down a mountain in a storm perfectly safely.
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We recently fitted cross climate 3 sports to our car, as living in the UK I managed to convince the other half they were safer than summer tyres most of the time at home, and far better for our drives to the alps. So far have been excellent on both counts (other than more road noise).
On Saturday we were driving up to Morillon Les Esserts (1100m) with a friend in another car. Our tyres got us up no problem once I’d managed to disable traction control, and while his snow socks did well, they couldn’t manage to get up to the accommodation as ours did. His summer tyres also gave up about 10m up the ascent, although I’m surprised he even got that far on them!
We passed 3 other cars putting snow chains on while stuck climbing up - it was really tricky conditions, but the all season tyres with 3PMSF were superb.
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You know it makes sense.
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In France there are 2 linked situations, and people are sometimes getting mixed up between them.
Between 1 November and 31 March, in certain departments, and where indicated by the relevant signs, your vehicle must have: either 4 x 3MPSF tyres, or be equipped with chains / socks. This is a legal requirement, and applies even if the roads are completely clear and there is no snow forecast for the next fortnight. See: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/actualites/A14389.
Separate to that is the question of what the local gendarmes require in a particular situation. Even if your vehicle is legal, as above, that doesn't mean they won't insist on chains being fitted if they think it necessary
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Here in Andorra, police checks were happening at various points but not consistently. Snow tyres were let through. If you didn’t have these you were told to put on socks or chains. Not fact just observation - I saw 4 different snow socks lying in the middle of the road where they’d fallen off. Whilst they might be easy to fit, it seems a number of people struggle - which has made me question their usefulness. Living next to a busy road on a hill though, I didn’t hear many people going past with chains on so I guess statistically 4 discarded snow socks possibly isn’t too bad.
I was let through and my 2wd with snow tyres was managing fine until I encountered a very slow moving campervan in front. I had to slow down a bit too much, lost a lot of momentum and subsequently lost traction. I really didn’t want to put my chains on partly because I haven’t practised in years (and not needed them), I was about 100m from some flat and I was only a few hundred metres from home. A bit of steering wiggle for a min or so (it was late at night and the road was quiet) edged me to the flat and thankfully I regained full traction to get me home. I decided to not bother using the car on Saturday!
Anyway, as Swskier says, it’s worth checking the quality and the tread left. My tyres have worked brilliantly for me in the past, and whilst they’re still legal, maybe the tread isn’t quite up to it as much as before.
Come Saturday, my local lift was closed due to wind so I got the bus up to the next lift. It was carnage with cars all over the place. Clearly, the police had decided not to force people to fit chains/socks possibly because there were more snowploughs out clearing the roads.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just to try and clarify what was happening in the 3Vs last Saturday.
At the checkpoint for the Meribel and Courchevel roads the gendarmes were inspecting tyres.
So this did involve them looking at the tyres for 10 to 15 seconds per vehicle.
Cannot say for sure if they looking for the 3PSMF symbol or just looking at the tread pattern or a bit of both. With a bit of experience it is easy to spot the difference by looking at the tread pattern and probably slightly quicker to do that than look for the symbol on a sludge covered tyre.
We were allowed to pass with 2WD and Cross Climate 3s, as were my parents with the Goodyear equivalent.
Cars with summer tyres were being made to fit chains.
As has been widely reported the control in the Belleville valley was different and all vehicles were required to fit chains (not socks).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Le Grand Renard wrote: |
| Late to this chat but a simple observation, All season tyres regardless of being on a 4WD are useless compared to winter tyres with the snowflake. A common theme on the Ste Foy Facebook page after heavy snowfall sadly many do not understand the different . It’s the small zig zags that make all the difference. |
I also do not agree with this. I drive a BMW 3 Series X-Drive and have all season tyres (Michelin Cross Climate with the 3PMSF symbol). In April 2023 I drove up to Val Thorens in extremely heavy snow and didn't need to put chains on (which I do carry with me). When we reached the hotel we apologised for checking in a bit late and were told that we were not the last to arrive - there was a minibus in Les Menuires carrying guests and the driver was refusing to carry on as he deemed it too dangerous.
Only issues we faced were snow build up in the wheel arches that we had to periodically clear and the windscreen wipers struggled a bit to keep up with the intensity of the snowfall.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My observations from last weekend here in ADH
If you are on snow chains or socks or just being cautious you can let other drivers pass! Cars going up usually have the right of way if there is a pinch point on the road(road partially blocked, narrow section etc).
Clear your roof of snow, I saw a few cars at the bottom being told to clear the snow.
As others have said it's much easier to put chains on at the bottom/top.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Griggs wrote: |
| Le Grand Renard wrote: |
| Late to this chat but a simple observation, All season tyres regardless of being on a 4WD are useless compared to winter tyres with the snowflake. A common theme on the Ste Foy Facebook page after heavy snowfall sadly many do not understand the different . It’s the small zig zags that make all the difference. |
I also do not agree with this. I drive a BMW 3 Series X-Drive and have all season tyres (Michelin Cross Climate with the 3PMSF symbol). In April 2023 I drove up to Val Thorens in extremely heavy snow and didn't need to put chains on (which I do carry with me). |
Yes, every All Season tyre I've seen for sale in the UK has the 3PMSF symbol, I'm unaware of any that don't carry the 3PMSF snowflake symbol.
Just a note for North American sHs, I believe the designation All Season for tyres (tires) there is somewhat different to that in Europe and may only be equivalent to the M&S (Mud and Snow) designation and not have the 3PMSF snowflake symbol?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Alpinebear, we drove along the D1091 to Serre Chevalier on Sunday afternoon. So many vehicles coming down with massive quantities of snow on the roof, and cars driving up so slowly it became dangerous at times. Gendarmes just before the top of the Col du Lauteret, but didn't see any at any other point on the journey, and they were no where near an Aire de Chainage.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
All season tyres regardless of being on a 4WD are useless compared to winter tyres with the snowflake.
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Also disagree with this - all season are perhaps not as good as winters, but they do the job in most conditions. I also suspect that the best all-season tyres (with 3PMSF badging) are better than a cheapo pair of winters, given comments here and on the (many) other tyre threads.
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I was in resort over that snowy weekend (PdS).
As others have said, Gendarmes were making people with winters fit chains if they didn't also have AWD/4x4. They asked me, and actually looked at my tyres, before letting me proceed (4x4 with 3pmsf rated tyres).
They were also testing people for alcohol consumption.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Gendarmes wont care. They want to see the correct symbols. Doesn't matter whether that's symbol is on all seasons or winters - it just has to be there. Annoyingly, some manufacturers have the symbol on some sizes in a range, but not others!
Plenty of folk on here argue the toss on this. Just get properly marked winters if you want to avoid an issue with the police.
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The michelin cross climates are correctly marked with 3pmsf symbol. My previous all season tyres ( goodyear ) weren't suitably marked, hence my choice of the cc3s.
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FAQ
