 Poster: A snowHead
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| Blackblade wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
Short summary; Only Winter Tyres and Chains got up the 25degree slope
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If a wheel has chains on, does it make a different what style of rubber is underneath? |
To be clear, I meant Winter Tyres (without chains) vs Chains (don't know what tyres were on underneath) ... both got up the 25degree slope |
25 degrees is around a 45% slope. From experience I'd struggle to go up much beyond a 10-12% slope with winters and certainly wouldn't be able to restart if someone stopped in front of me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I too was thinking "that's a bit steep"?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think I may have misquoted ... the video certainly didn't look that steep ... I think more likely a 25% slope (so 14degrees)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Blackblade wrote: |
| I think I may have misquoted ... the video certainly didn't look that steep ... I think more likely a 25% slope (so 14degrees) |
Last year I had a bit of an adventure. Hatchback with FWD and new snow tyres - best on the ADAC ratings. It started snowing at around 800 m. Immediately the summer tyre people ran into trouble, one person turned around but others apparently had chains to fit. I zig zagged through them. A couple of kms up the road there were some crashes where people had slid into the cliff on the side. After there was a steep section for a few hundred meters - 12% according to the map - my wheelspin light was flashing on and off and I prayed the car ahead didn't stop. Finally made it to a village around 1100m. It was snowing heavily and the road further on needed re-ploughing as the snow was quite deep. I really didn't think I'd get to my accommodation at 1450. Parked up and got an overnight bag out of the car and went to a gondola lift. Explained situation to the liftie who let me ride up without a ticket (I had one from the next day) then skied down to my accommodation. Liftie told me the road higher up was carnage as cars were blocking the snow plough and non one was getting through.
Went and got the car the next day in sunshine and almost clear roads.
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Legal yes, but see the link in the post below yours for s view in whether they're always adequate.
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@mishmash, but that's NOT the definitive answer, as @sugarmoma666 points out. There are a number of reports that the police were insisting on chains, not socks. That was really the whole point of the thread.
I still find it improbable that the police in some cases were allowing "winter tyres" but not "all season 3 peaks tyres" to proceed.
There is no question that chains are better than socks - but the chains you leave in the boot till you're stuck are nothing like as good as the socks you're confident to use!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dazzle109 wrote: |
| ....Each year I do wonder if this is the year. |
We've only ever travelled at Easter when turning up in shorts and t-shirts seems to be the norm. But there's always been a biblical dump of snow and it could easily be the day on which we travel in or out of resort. So far we've not touched our chains but like you say, this could be the year
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looking at the forecast, a good amount of people may get a further practice session next Saturday...............
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Origen wrote: |
@mishmash, but that's NOT the definitive answer, as @sugarmoma666 points out. There are a number of reports that the police were insisting on chains, not socks. That was really the whole point of the thread.
I still find it improbable that the police in some cases were allowing "winter tyres" but not "all season 3 peaks tyres" to proceed.
There is no question that chains are better than socks - but the chains you leave in the boot till you're stuck are nothing like as good as the socks you're confident to use! |
I would assume that the police who check tyres in the mountains are very experienced in what they are looking for and what is going to work on that particular day.
It seems reasonable that if the conditions are going to be borderline passable with all-seasons but should be ok with full winter tyres they would allow one but not the other. Similarly winter with 4wd might be allowed whereas winter with 2wd might not in specific conditions. They probably also assess the amount of tread too. It's all down to their decision at the time and I'm sure they are qualified to make that decision if they are based out in the mountain region all year. If they know what they are looking for they should be able to make the decision in seconds.
This kind of thing has actually happened to me at the entrance to the Arlberg pass in Austria, the police stopped a Mercedes in front of me and made him get snow chains out, then he looked at my car for all of 5 seconds and waved me on. That was all the time it took to see I had 4wd and winter tyres which was adequate for the conditions at the time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Origen wrote: |
The following points were made in the discussions about Saturday's difficult conditions:
1. Police prevented people with snow socks from driving up the mountain - insisting on chains only
2. Police were requiring those with all season tyres to chain up whilst allowing those with "winters" to proceed without.
There has often been confusion about snow socks - and perhaps not all socks are equal. And we know that not all chains are equal.
But AFAIK it has been widely accepted that tyres with the "3 peaks snowflake" symbol meet the requirement.
And if only certain marques of snow socks are accepted, this needs to be made clear.
Thoughts? People often ask about this on Snowheads - and we should get our facts right. |
1. Not all socks are certified
2. 3 peaks snowflake = winter tyre -whether described or marketed as all season or winter.
“ Please note
Since last winter, only 3PMSF tires are allowed in equivalence to removable anti-slip devices (3PMSF is the acronym for “Three peak mountain snow flake” which means “Mountain with three peaks with a snowflake”). The purchase and use of other types of snow tires is still possible, but in this case users must also have removable anti-skid devices. The 3PMSF marking is the only guarantee of winter performance in all conditions because it is based on a standardized European test of tire traction performance on snow or ice.”
Snow socks - it is clear that they need to meet the B26 standard which some do (eg Autosock). The B26 requirement requires 3PMSF equipped drivers to “chain” or “sock” up - with discretion for 4WD/AWD.
I’m not bothered because I’m in a AWD Volvo with Bridgestone Blizzak 3PMSF winters AND 2 sets of Autosocks for all wheels - never required to deploy them in 7 years.
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| stefoy4me wrote: |
| looking at the forecast, a good amount of people may get a further practice session next Saturday............... |
Yep, current forecasts show significant dumps for middle of next week and Saturday week. Obviously can change from that.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
only 3PMSF tires are allowed in equivalence to removable anti-slip devices (3PMSF is the acronym for “Three peak mountain snow flake” which means “Mountain with three peaks with a snowflake”).
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Not sure whether you are suggesting here that "proper" 3PMSF tyres will always be allowed up the mountain without chains but if that's the case I can assure you you're quite wrong. 4WD might well be exempt, for good reason, but ordinary front wheel drive cars will sometimes be required to put chains or socks on, regardless of how spiffing their tyres are. Happened to me twice, with "full winters".
What seemed to be new in the recent Snowmageddon event was that there were many reports that snow socks, although in theory conforming to requirements, were not accepted.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think the major lesson from that weekend in the Tarentaise is to build a big Aire de Chainage just off the N90 serving the Belleville Valley road. As chains were required just off the N90 to negotiate the snowy roads the traffic backed up onto the N90 blocking other vehicles which were trying to get to the rest of the 3V, Paradiski, T-VDI and La Ros. Once passed the ititial jam is was relatively plain sailing for these guys.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've only quickly scanned the 3V thread back to megadump times; I'm guessing it was only on the smaller D roads up to resort? Was the gendarmerie implementing this across all resorts, or was it a 3V thing?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
only 3PMSF tires are allowed in equivalence to removable anti-slip devices (3PMSF is the acronym for “Three peak mountain snow flake” which means “Mountain with three peaks with a snowflake”).
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Not sure whether you are suggesting here that "proper" 3PMSF tyres will always be allowed up the mountain without chains but if that's the case I can assure you you're quite wrong. 4WD might well be exempt, for good reason, but ordinary front wheel drive cars will sometimes be required to put chains or socks on, regardless of how spiffing their tyres are. Happened to me twice, with "full winters".
What seemed to be new in the recent Snowmageddon event was that there were many reports that snow socks, although in theory conforming to requirements, were not accepted. |
Although on paper (French government websites) 3PMSF tyres are stated as sufficient, do prefecture / gendarmerie enforce stricter rules of using chains at the base of ascents if conditions are severe?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Although on paper (French government websites) 3PMSF tyres are stated as sufficient, do prefecture / gendarmerie enforce stricter rules of using chains at the base of ascents if conditions are severe?
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they certainly do. And the "rules" don't say that 3PMSF tyres are "sufficient" they say they (or other tyres and chains/socks) are the minimum which must be carried at all times when you're in the designated areas, even if there isn't a flake of snow to be seen for miles around. When conditions are difficult - snow plus busy transfer days, additional rules are applied on the spot locally. There's nothing new about that - it's been the case for many years.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We drove into BSM last season with snow lying on the road, the rain had turned to snow at Moutiers. Further along,maybe 2 or 3 cm depth of snow was convering the road, enough that you were following the tyre tracks of the previous vehicle.
The snow plough hadn't cleared the way. We kept passing small France registered cars pulled over into nooks and gateways with usually, inadequately dressed youngsters, trying to fit chains.
The 3.85t motorhome with it's Michelin Cross Climates was perfectly fine, and we do also carry the legit snow socks and chains.
The road into Bourg isn't particularly steep or winding - I can only assume they had summer tyres - but the snow wasn't deep enough to need chains, I hate to think what that did to the tyres - snow socks would have worked better in this scenario.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Not a fluent french speaker but it seems to suggest what we already know that during periods of poor weather and particularly on weekends it will be necessary to have EITHER (soit in french) winter tyres, chains or approved snow socks.
I can't see mention for legally mandating multiples of the above as suggested
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I agree with @Topgeartom. It's the same rule - either chains for two wheels, or 3PMSF tyres (which includes all the standard all-season tyres, like the Michelin Cross Climates) or socks which comply with the regulations.
| Quote: |
The law that requires people to be equipped for winter driving in France has never hit the statute books, which probably explains the number of people chancing it on summer tyres
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I thought the law HAD hit the statute book but it does not mandate winter tyres - summer tyres are permitted provided the vehicle can be equipped with chains or socks. Same rule as displayed on the northern Italian motorways.
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It pretty much guarantees all mountain roads descend into a massive farce when the snow arrives. Very French.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Rob_Quads, I've linked to the actual decree in my post a few above yours.
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| sherman-maeir wrote: |
| Blackblade wrote: |
| I think I may have misquoted ... the video certainly didn't look that steep ... I think more likely a 25% slope (so 14degrees) |
Last year I had a bit of an adventure. Hatchback with FWD and new snow tyres - best on the ADAC ratings. It started snowing at around 800 m. Immediately the summer tyre people ran into trouble, one person turned around but others apparently had chains to fit. I zig zagged through them. A couple of kms up the road there were some crashes where people had slid into the cliff on the side. After there was a steep section for a few hundred meters - 12% according to the map - my wheelspin light was flashing on and off and I prayed the car ahead didn't stop. Finally made it to a village around 1100m. It was snowing heavily and the road further on needed re-ploughing as the snow was quite deep. I really didn't think I'd get to my accommodation at 1450. Parked up and got an overnight bag out of the car and went to a gondola lift. Explained situation to the liftie who let me ride up without a ticket (I had one from the next day) then skied down to my accommodation. Liftie told me the road higher up was carnage as cars were blocking the snow plough and non one was getting through.
Went and got the car the next day in sunshine and almost clear roads. |
That happened to me a few years ago in St. Anton.
Our room was in St. Jakob. The road up to the Gasthof was extremely steep. Basically, there were two options: either drive from St. Anton and then go a few meters downhill (which I later realized was very steep), or turn off from the main road and drive about 300–400 meters uphill.
I was on the main road and tried to drive up those 300–400 meters — but it just didn’t work. Even with winter tires rated among the best by ADAC. I also tried using snow chains, but without success.
In the end, I sent my wife and the kids up to the Gasthof on foot. The owner came down to help, but even together we couldn’t get the car up the hill.
Luckily, he knew one of the neighbors. I was able to leave my car there, and the neighbor came with a small 4x4 Fiat Panda to pick me up along with all our luggage.
That was the moment I truly understood the value of a 4WD. Unfortunately, for other reasons, I still didn’t manage to buy one.
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You know it makes sense.
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| valais2 wrote: |
@Origen, ...very useful many thanks
we use winters on steels - slightly narrower, slightly higher profile, listed in Skoda handbook as permissible OEM fitment
while winters are on, summers on alloys are sustaining no wear
so no cost other than outlay on steels and winters but low cost compared to utility
we are lucky to have room to store them in the barn
no all season for us
and I think it will def stay that way |
Ditto - well garage for barn. Oh and our second set of wheels are actually smaller (so narrower, higher profile tyres) skoda alloys (that can be factory supplied on Octavias) - I was going to buy steels but the wheel/tyre supplier offered me the skoda alloys for a few quid extra.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
It pretty much guarantees all mountain roads descend into a massive farce when the snow arrives. Very French.
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No it doesn't - it demonstrably doesn't. And the French authorities are actually rather good at getting huge numbers of people up quite difficult roads accessing resorts.
There will be VERY few occasions when good snow chains, properly mounted, will not get most cars up most hills. There are also occasions when the very best of winter tyres, on non-4WD cars, will NOT get cars up hills. And the suggestions of the superior commentators here that that is always down to an inability to drive in snow are plain wrong.
The French law aims, I guess, to make demands with which the reasonable motorist can reasonably comply. When a big snowfall coincides with a big transfer day there are going to be problems. But should the law provide for the worst case scenario? If it did, it would probably give local authorities the power to prohibit ALL mountain access - in the same way as authorities in (I think it was) Val d'Isere prohibited ALL pedestrian movement along big stretches of the main streets (and closed all the lifts for days too) because of avalanche risk. Nobody would be able to get out, and nobody would be able to get in to resorts. But there would be no stranded cars strewn across the highway. Result!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Snow&skifan, AFAIK the rules are you must be equipped with 3PMSF tyres or chains/socks to drive in the areas in question at all. So on a sunny day at the end of March when the last snow was a month ago (or start of November when it hasn't yet snowed) with road cyclists out in shorts, a bored Gendarme could prosecute you for not being equipped for snow and issue fines and not let you go anywhere etc if you didn't have 3PMSF tyres or chains/socks.
But my understanding is the Gendamerie are perfectly entitled to insist on stricter requirements (e.g. must have chains) to drive up specific roads in specific conditions; They can't prosecute you for not being equipped, but they can restrict what vehicles are allowed through (up to the point of closing the road, and/or limiting it to emergency services...)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Topgeartom wrote: |
Not a fluent french speaker but it seems to suggest what we already know that during periods of poor weather and particularly on weekends it will be necessary to have EITHER (soit in french) winter tyres, chains or approved snow socks.
I can't see mention for legally mandating multiples of the above as suggested |
I've now translated it and it explicitly allows the gendarme to prohibit vehicles progressing with snow socks if they don't consider they're suitable for the heavy snow conditions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I suspect that @qwerty360 is quite right that the gendarmes are entitled to prohibit anybody going up any road, any time. The suggestion in some of the reports during the recent "snowmageddon" event that nobody with winter tyres would be required to put chains on is particularly ill-informed. I guess that if a road was hopelessly blocked they would stop anybody heading into the blockage, perhaps for hours. Just as police in the UK would stop vehicles heading into a stretch of motorway blocked with an accident, or a spillage. Happens all the time.
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FAQ
Those travelling to Belleville Valley resorts 