 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm the no equipment is always a red flag. It's not a magic amulet but at least having the gear is a entry level indicator of capacity to think about risks.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It can be an entry-level indicator of a belief in amulets.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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According to the report he was found within 50 minutes. With a beacon set to transmit, he would have be found in half the time, at most. If you have a beacon, wear it!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Very sadly, as far as I read, 4 deaths yesterday.
We were up Brevent and there were hordes of idiots very off piste on a 4/5 day.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Hmm the no equipment is always a red flag. It's not a magic amulet but at least having the gear is an entry level indicator of capacity to think about risks. |
I skied with my brother in law for the first time pre Christmas. His family have a place outside Morzine in St Jean. He skied every school holiday from 10 years old. He is an excellent skier. He is now 35 or so. When I booked an off piste lesson for us the instructor brought an extra bag as he didn't have one whilst I had brought my own. The instructor proceeded to have a little chat about the equipment. My brother in law had never seen, and never heard of any of this gear. No idea that a transceiver was a thing. Or a probe. I was totally gobsmacked.
Some people just arrive, ski and leave. They place no consideration or risk assessment on anything. They aren't interested in the technology. I feel like those of us who don't operate that way are probably in the minority.
Perhaps it is a generational thing similar to helmet adoption?
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To which generation do you refer? The average post on Snowheads is written by somebody who is between sixty and seventy. And they’ve all got the kit.
I think contributing to Snowheads means you read the word regularly. So you end up indoctrinated. If you don’t read Snowheads where would you find out about these things?
You can’t risk assess something when you don’t know what the risk is. Your BIL’s parents learned to ski before transceivers were invented - and before off piste skis were invented.
I remember staying in a chalet years ago listening to the epic off piste adventures of the snowboarders in the metres of fresh snow we’d had. They’d never heard of transceivers. Meanwhile I booked an instructor; we never left the piste but he carried an airbag to make himself feel safe.
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I meant for the average person who isn't totally invested and doesn't read the word. If you are on here then you likely are fully invested. Youtube, reddit, etc etc are of course alternative places you might find info. I was fully aware of all of this at least 15 years ago. I suppose it depends on the group you go out with most often too. I'm sure that there was at least one of our group who would have some gear all those years ago who would have been the maven of the group.
My BILs parents only took up skiing when he started at 10 so I can't see that as having any major impact.
I happily did some outrageously silly stuff 25 years ago on a snowboard. Not invented yet probably covers that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| James the Last wrote: |
... If you don’t read Snowheads where would you find out about [avalanche safety]?
You can’t risk assess something when you don’t know what the risk is.
Your BIL’s parents learned to ski before transceivers were invented - and before off piste skis were invented. .. |
Um:
- I have a pile of ski books going back to the 1970s all of which talk about avalanche safety at considerable length. Obviously there are lots of places to find out about such stuff. I'd probably exclude internet forums, which contain as much noise as signal, as you just demonstrated
- You perhaps mean that it's hard to assess a risk if you don't understand it, but somehow even in the benighted 1980s the few of us competent enough to ski off piste were also competent enough to be very wary of slide risk. I think we were more scared, more careful, precisely because we didn't feel we had enough knowledge of the art. We still don't really "know what the risk is" - it's not an exact science - but that's no reason not to assess and manage it. That's a feature of risk management, that you do not really ever understand the actual risk level.
- Pieps were commonly available by the late 1980s, albeit expensive. Miller Soft skis existed in the late 1980s, as did "ski mountaineering" skis. "off piste skis" broadened participation but that's all.
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I think this is an area where the Euro model of mountain safety in a ski resort does fall down a bit. It's a consequence of the geography so it's not saying one way is better than another, but maybe as skiing evolves so does the level of education around the risks.
In a US/Japan model there is a clear dividing line - Stay in this area and you're a resort skier. Go through this gate, or over that rope, and you're no longer a resort skier, you're a back country skier and therefore you'd better know what the hell you're doing.
In Europe the line isn't resort vs back country, it is on the marked route vs off the marked route. Which creates this big grey area of the bits between the marked routes or near the marked route. You really should know what you're doing if you stray outside of the marked routes but it's not obvious. And modern media, equipment, technology etc, make it easier than ever to go away from the marked routes. So IMO the resorts, emergency services, ski schools etc. could do a lot better in terms of marketing/education to describe to people in resort what skiing outside the marked routes really means.
And maybe find a way to recognise the risk isn't as black and white as on vs off a marked route. The level of knowledge required to do that risk assessment is beyond most people, but telling people "never leave the marked routes unless you know what you're doing and are properly equipped" is also not realistic, so how do people know where the next limit is? But that is fraught with issues, the freedom to go beyond the marked routes for people who do know what they're doing is something that shouldn't be lost either.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Tragic for all concerned. I'm sure all our thoughts are with you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It is very sad, as were those deaths from drowning when people with little or no experience of cold water swimming decided that a swim on a freezing cold windy day was a good idea. But such is the price we pay for the freedom to make those decisions for ourselves. When those decisions cost the life of a rescuer, like the guy who tried to help the mother and daughter, that really gets to me. If I'd loved him I suspect I'd be properly angry, as well as grief-stricken.
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@phil_w, you are correct, risk and hazard are too often used interchangeably and it is clearer if risk is used for the chance of a hazard’s causing harm. More clearly I should have written: you can’t assess the risk if you don’t know what the hazard is.
If you’ve never seen a grenade before then you can’t assess the risk of cuddling it, nor of pulling the pin out. This is because you do not recognise the hazard.
Most holiday skiers who do a bit of off piste do not associate this with the apparently glamorous stuff. There are plenty of areas in ski resorts where there are warning signs “beyond here is off piste and dangerous”, a potential interpretation by those who do not understand is that places off piste where there is no rope and sign are not dangerous.
Favourite quote of the week in an Airbag review: “Most recreational skiers will not get enough use from the inherent avalung.”
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I suppose I was addressing the suggestion that sources of information on these things are hard to find. I'd go the other way and say it's impossible to be unaware that there is a general risk from riding uncontrolled slopes. The link in the 1st post is to an Independent article; there are also Daily Mail and Daily Express links about the same thing scrolling on that page. If you ski, you know that stuff happens all the time.
You're making a more specific point there about knowing the actual risk at any time. It's easy to find, but I think if you don't care about the risk, you probably would not bother to look or ask about it. If you're out in 4/5 risk level without a transceiver etc and you get caught... I would conclude that you don't care about any of those things. Which limits how sad I feel about these things.
I think it's more that some people accept that risk and decidenot to mitigate it. Like cigarette smokers, or boy racers. I don't want any of them to die, and I'm sorry for their families, but it's they who decide to take those risks, and they do know the consequences.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Chaletbeauroc, you can see the general level at https://avalanche.report/ , though it doesn't seem to link into the French system for detailed updates (Germany, Italy and the rest of Austria have now been integrated). Click the arrow next to the date top left to go back in time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It is so sad that a number of skiers died this weekend in avalanches, my condolences to all.
It is a fact that skiers will continue to ski off piste without appropriate avalanche gear and those with gear will still be caught. I agree what is more important to focus on, for all skiers is minimising the risk that you will be buried in an avalanche in the first place. There is a lot of vital information on the Henrys Avalanche Talk website (HAT) re risk reduction, they call it the ‘HAT Framework method’. Start off with the essentials talk.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Origen wrote: |
| It is very sad, as were those deaths from drowning when people with little or no experience of cold water swimming decided that a swim on a freezing cold windy day was a good idea. But such is the price we pay for the freedom to make those decisions for ourselves. When those decisions cost the life of a rescuer, like the guy who tried to help the mother and daughter, that really gets to me. If I'd loved him I suspect I'd be properly angry, as well as grief-stricken. |
That is a good example though, as 'cold water swimming' moves more into the mainstream, so does the level of education about the risk, where to go and where not to, how to do it safely etc. It is a false to say that freedom needs to be traded off against risk, we can be educated to exercise our freedoms in safer ways. That is very different from knowing the risks and doing something anyway.
I personally don't see much effort in ski resorts to increase awareness of how to ski safely outside the marked routes. E.g. when booking an off-piste lesson last season most ski schools didn't mention either whether I needed to bring my own safety gear or whether they would provide it, it wasn't something that seem to be front of their mind. I booked with the one that explicitly stated they would provide the gear as I needed them to.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Layne, In fact globally there are more people smoking than ever before. Just not in the UK.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
The average post on Snowheads is written by somebody who is between sixty and seventy. And they’ve all got the kit.
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The average snowheads is a 1-2 week "holiday skier" more interested in where is good for lunch than the actual skiing. Look at number of threads about which restaurants/bars/pistes Vs any requests about off piste routes or backcountry trips.
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it's impossible to be unaware that there is a general risk from riding uncontrolled slopes.
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You are massively overestimating the average Brit in a ski resort. Yes, they have probably heard about avalanches killing people but they assume it's people doing something wild in the backcountry. Slopes accessable by lifts that others are skiing couldn't possibly be dangerous (to be honest even on snowheads you will see many blasé about "in-between pistes" and "just off to the side"). For many skiing is not something they think about the majority of the year, they just turn up for their 1 or 2 week-long holidays and then don't really engage outside that.
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Interesting comments on ski school atitude @bouquetin,
For many years I have considered ski schools the "wrong schools" to study off -piste, ski touring and avalanche awareness.
There is a volume of anecdotal evidence to support that statement. I could list a number of incidents with which I have personal association.
Very simply Instructors :Teach Skiing.
Mount Guides Teach: Mountain Safety
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Many years ago I attended a winter hill walking course at Glenmore Lodge. This was before I started skiing. At the same time my wife attended a skiing course. There were lectures in the evenings as well as on the mountain training. One of these lectures was on avalanches which even had a section on the posibilty of on piste avalanches. This included such things as digging inspection pits, what to look for in the snow pack, windslab etc. It was very interesting. I've often wondered why if you enroll on a beginners ski course in a resort there are no evening lectures or cassroom sessions explaining things such as avalanches and the physics of what you are doing and why.
A couple years ago we hired a guide for some backcountry skiing in Japan. He spent time instructing us how to use the beacons, how to probe, how to tranverse across the slope one at a time etc. Having the equipment is one thing how to use it is just as important.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| You are massively overestimating the average Brit in a ski resort. |
Why pick on the Brits. From what I've read there have been and usually are several nationalities involved.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| ... The average snowheads is a 1-2 week "holiday skier" more interested in where is good for lunch than the actual skiing. .. |
In which case they're unlikely to be venturing into the stuff where you need to know much about slides.
If I'd run a lunch place where customers had to be avalanche trained... I'd probably still be hiking for my turns too
The issue isn't that some people prefer to stay on the piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We were in La Plagne when it hit last week. Honestly, I'm not sure how you get 5/5 if that was only a 4.
Massive snow, 10 degrees warmer than the day before, very windy.
The area this was in was guaranteed to avalanche somewhere (and not necessarily on anything crazily steep or normally that dangerous).
They shut the entire resort on Friday morning for a few hours to alleviate some of it (Avi cannons going none stop from 6am).....but the focus there was clearing any risks above pistes, not the off piste areas.
To go into that without the gear or proper guidance is madness.
I went down the Bozelet run last year in that area in better conditions (but still bluebird powder) and it was waist deep on shallow blue run pistes. Insane to go into steep off piste territory around there. Even moreso given there'll have been powder anywhere you fancied on the less steep stuff in that area. Loads of options to get your fix on shallow stuff.
Rescuers putting themselves at risk to fish people out of this stuff really winds me up.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Mount Guides Teach: Mountain Safety
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No. They don't, generally teach at all.
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| paulhinch wrote: |
We were in La Plagne when it hit last week. Honestly, I'm not sure how you get 5/5 if that was only a 4.
Massive snow, 10 degrees warmer than the day before, very windy.
The area this was in was guaranteed to avalanche somewhere (and not necessarily on anything crazily steep or normally that dangerous).
They shut the entire resort on Friday morning for a few hours to alleviate some of it (Avi cannons going none stop from 6am).....but the focus there was clearing any risks above pistes, not the off piste areas.
To go into that without the gear or proper guidance is madness.
I went down the Bozelet run last year in that area in better conditions (but still bluebird powder) and it was waist deep on shallow blue run pistes. Insane to go into steep off piste territory around there. Even moreso given there'll have been powder anywhere you fancied on the less steep stuff in that area. Loads of options to get your fix on shallow stuff.
Rescuers putting themselves at risk to fish people out of this stuff really winds me up. |
The off-piste in Val Thorens (at least anything visible from a lift) was tracked out by the afternoon on Sunday. Groups of ski-school kids, lost snowboarders up to their arm pits, the lot. We even saw one guy crash through a corniced edge onto a ski-track. That brought down enough snow to immobilise him completely. Pretty nuts.
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You know it makes sense.
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Gotta admit my experience is that these days, after a snowfall, everyone goes nuts for a couple of days. Then it's left to, dare I say it, normal off pisters, to go find the less obvious stuff. Or enjoy the reformed or semi skied out stuff.
Not sure how you solve it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
In which case they're unlikely to be venturing into the stuff where you need to know much about slides.
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I know plenty of people that do 1-2 week-long trips per year ("holiday skiers") who will absolutely head off piste in search of powder after a storm. No gear, won't look at a forecast/danger rating, no education a out avalanche danger. Sure they are not going massively far from the lifts, but they are certainly going into avalanche terrain sometimes.
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Why pick on the Brits. From what I've read there have been and usually are several nationalities involved.
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It's a majority British forum. The average Brit has no experience of avalanches or the potential danger, as they are not something encountered in general in UK. Those living in countries with snow and mountains maybe more likely to have some awareness.
If I wanted to pick on a group of nationalities the scandis have a reputation for being particularly reckless. "The crash test dummies" of Chamonix  In their case they should know better as most of them are skiing a lot of days, and carrying the gear. Whereas a lot of Brits are simply ignorant to the risk.
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Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="boarder2020"]
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It's a majority British forum. The average Brit has no experience of avalanches or the potential danger, as they are not something encountered in general in UK. Those living in countries with snow and mountains maybe more likely to have some awareness.
. |
I remember reading years ago that the Scottish highlands have more avalanches per area or whatever than almost anywhere in Europe. Due to the rounded terrain and bare slopes apparently, not to mention the changeable weather. Plenty of winter walkers spend a lot of time thinking about it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
It's a majority British forum. The average Brit has no experience of avalanches or the potential danger, as they are not something encountered in general in UK. Those living in countries with snow and mountains maybe more likely to have some awareness.
If I wanted to pick on a group of nationalities the scandis have a reputation for being particularly reckless. "The crash test dummies" of Chamonix In their case they should know better as most of them are skiing a lot of days, and carrying the gear. Whereas a lot of Brits are simply ignorant to the risk. |
What a load of nonsense.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@boarder2020, erm, hang on a sec.
"Those living in countries with snow and mountains maybe more likely to have some awareness.", swiftly followed by "If I wanted to pick on a group of nationalities the scandis have a reputation for being particularly reckless."
I'm not a professional geographer, but aren't skandi countries generally covered in snow and have a fair few mountains? Also lots of snow and mountains in France, but plenty of Parisians think nothing of skiing in jeans.
You're spouting rubbish.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 12-01-26 18:27; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
For many years I have considered ski schools the "wrong schools" to study off -piste, ski touring and avalanche awareness
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I suspect quite a large majority of skiers will at some point have some kind of engagement with a ski school. A tiny percentage will ever engage with a mountain guide (and as said above guides are not necessarily "teachers" anyway). So it might make sense for ski schools to at least touch on the subject - even if that is just explaining that avalanche deaths are a real risk, and perhaps pointing out the ratings shown at lift stations and talking about them.
There probably should be a weekly free avalanche talk organised in all major ski resorts each week. Of course you are mostly going to attract the most engaged who probably need it the least, but you might have some impact.
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A couple years ago we hired a guide for some backcountry skiing in Japan. He spent time instructing us how to use the beacons, how to probe, how to tranverse across the slope one at a time etc. Having the equipment is one thing how to use it is just as important.
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I think there is probably huge variation in clients. For sure, some want to learn and the guide to educate them. Others don't care as they never plan to ski without a guide and just see it as wasting time.
I think Europe is really lacking a basic standardised qualification system. In Canada you have AST1 which is the basic 2 day course. It's become an unofficial de facto standard for anyone to do before touring/backcountry. The first question for any would be touring partner is usually do you have AST1. Of course a 2 day course doesn't make you extremely knowledgeable, but having completed it and having the gear at least indicates some kind of interest in safety.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dr John wrote: |
@boarder2020, erm, hang on a sec.
"Those living in countries with snow and mountains maybe more likely to have some awareness.", swiftly followed by "If I wanted to pick on a group of nationalities the scandis have a reputation for being particularly reckless."
I'm not a professional geographer, but aren't skandi countries generally covered in snow and have a fair few mountains? |
My point is a lot of 1-2 week Brit holiday skiers are simply ignorant and don't know the risks. They just turn up and ski and then go home. There is no thought about avalanche risk. The scandis in chamonix know the risks and are carrying the gear but choose to ignore them. Which personally I think is actually far more stupid and reckless than the Brits who simply don't know any better.
Of course these are big stereotypes of course there are some very safe scandis and some very knowledgeable Brits.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@boarder2020, you make massive generalisations, then admit you've made massive generalisations, then completely overturn your massive generalisations. All a waste of keystrokes wasn't it?
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@Dr John,
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@Dr John, the fact you can find some exceptions to a generalisation, doesn't mean it has no truth. The scandis in chamonix have the reputation they do for a reason. The average Brit holiday skier isn't particularly informed, but why would they be only spending a week or 2 per year on snow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| ..I know plenty of people that do 1-2 week-long trips per year ("holiday skiers") who will absolutely head off piste in search of powder after a storm. No gear, won't look at a forecast/danger rating, no education a out avalanche danger. Sure they are not going massively far from the lifts, but they are certainly going into avalanche terrain sometimes.. |
Yeah but you were sneering at us, until I pointed out that was nonsense.
If you are now claiming your mates are (a) on here; and (b) incompetent idiots...
Well that's probably down to your own attitude. Leave it out
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[quote="JamesHJ"]
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
It's a majority British forum. The average Brit has no experience of avalanches or the potential danger, as they are not something encountered in general in UK. Those living in countries with snow and mountains maybe more likely to have some awareness.
. |
I remember reading years ago that the Scottish highlands have more avalanches per area or whatever than almost anywhere in Europe. |
Not really relevant though, as only a tiny percentage of British skiers have ever skied in Scotland.
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FAQ
