On sharpening Stockli Stormriders

A snowHead

I ski a pair of Stockli Stormrider 88s. I bought them second hand - they’d done two weeks and had been shop-serviced. After about four weeks’ use I had them serviced at L’Oxalys in Val Thorens, and then after another couple of weeks I had Mountain Attitude in Tignes edge and wax them last week during the PIPAU (ready for the last day).

The chap at Mountain Attitude (who had been highly recommended by some very good Snowheads) said “We service skis to expert level here, if you find you catch edges we will detune them for you.”

It might have been helpful if he’d said “these are beautifully serviced, you will love them. (And if you don’t, it’s you not the skis, so get used to them.)

I didn’t catch edges, but I couldn’t believe how firmly they gripped the very firm snow that we had on the pistes. Short turns were quite difficult; my instructor commented that I wasn’t moving the skis far enough from the centre line. I realised that was because they gripped the snow - like gaffa tape - long before they’d gone far enough from the centre line.

I’m not even quite sure what my question is - and I’m not sure how anybody can respond to me without trying them. The skis are nothing like the version of the skis I’ve been skiing on up until they were serviced. Is this how they should always have been? Or is this a level of aggression too far? They certainly made me notice them on every turn. Should I have kept the skis flatter for a moment longer before engaging the edges?

It was noticeable that whilst I’d been struggling on very firm pistes all week that post-servicing I was the one who wasn’t complaining about icy pistes.

There’s an interesting thread here which basically says ‘never detune modern skis. Unless your grinding machine is badly set up.’ https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=135594

All thoughts most gratefully received.

A snowHead

As you say, I think it's very hard to advise you without either trying the skis or watching you ski on them.
I skied on some of the original Stormrider XLs (massive 75mm waist) and I believe Stocklis are prepared with a 3 degree bevel which is more race like than most recreational skis.
I have also had the experience of having to readjust to skis going from very easy to pivot to requiring a bit more unweighting and/or flattening to slide them around after servicing but that was after >10 weeks without a service

SOrry not to be more help

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I took my skis for a service at my local ski emporium and had a similar experience. Head i.speed are pretty mundane piste skis but I couldn't turn them off. Every turn was fully carved, including into the lift queue. A hockey stop was not an option. I shat myself and hung on for 3 days.... Eventually they calmed down and I could ski like a punter again. I spent money at the bar, allowed myself thoughts on subjects other than whether I would stop where if planned and my legs forgave me. Never had the same experience again but it certainly opened my eyes.... I was unstoppable and also unstoppable!!!!

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Thanks both. Base 1.5 degrees, Edge 2 degrees per Stöckli website. It’s possible they used a different angle in the shop.

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I have a pair and a couple of time after a service I’ve had to detune them as they gripped so much they were basically unskiable …. Suspect user error as they were tuned for a great skier! Bit of a detune and the edges worn off a bit and they were great

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

So I rang the shop. They said they’d done them at 0.5 and 89 degrees, which is what they do all skis to, and detuned a little at the tips. They “do all skis to an expert standard”. He was worried I’d rung him to complain…

After all it is free

That Stokli std of 1.5 vs the shop set at 0.5 base angle is a big difference in ski response when starting to tip them on their edges.

Likely that will give the feeling experienced and described above.

I'm no expert, but I think the problem is the 0.5 base angle, which would make them very unforgiving, as very little tipping of the ski engages the edge. I think the norm for holiday skiers is a base angle of 1 deg.

From Piste Office Website:

Stockli:
Email from Stockli:
Most Stöckli skis have a factory base bevel of 1 and a side bevel of 1 to 2, most common is 2.
For the World Cup skis we use a bevel of 0.5 (Base) and 2 or 3 side, most common is 3.

Nb. None of the skis listed have a base angle of 0.5: https://pisteoffice.com/blogs/edge-angles-wax-data/ski-manufacturers-edge-angle-specifications

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Thanks @oldfartbag, Stockli publish the factory settings on their own website at base 1.5, edge 2.

Yes, it’s a huge difference. Why would the shop completely reconfigure a pair of skis without warning? When I took them in he asked me what edge angles I wanted and I said ‘normal’.

So now I’m stuck with a quandry. What do I do now? Are they better? Worse? They’re certainly harder work, every turn has to be thought about more. But they stuck to the icy slopes like they’d been glued on. I’m intrigued that they made the base angle lower = catchier; but the side angle higher = less sticky. The two characteristics seem to be going in opposite directions.

Will I notice any difference in powder? Do edges even matter in powder?

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You know it makes sense.

Stormriders seem to come out of the factory at 1.5 base edge.

https://www.evo.com/guides/ski-edge-bevel

The guy should have either asked you what edge angles you wanted or done them to factory settings. It's unclear where he got 0.5 and 1 from. "what they do all skis to" seems like bollox to me.

Personally I do all of our 4 family skis to 87 or 3 (depending on how you measure the same thing). I never touch a base edge.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Specifications aside, it sounds like an excellent and detailed technical service. The best ice "grip" in application comes from accuracy in angle PLUS exquisite deburring, that to leave the most keen edge available to interact with hard surface.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I'd leave them as they are because getting grip on an icy piste in a ski that wide is kibda like the holy grail. What will happen is that they'll dull off soon enough and become more "friendly".

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@James the Last, I'd leave them as they are. You may have needed to concentrate more, but you definitely had more confidence on the icy patches. And I suspect that the instructor's comments about getting you legs out more to the side can be addressed by adjusting technique, rather than detuning the edges. You seemed to be able to smear down the sides of moguls with them, so they weren't totally untameable - just grippier than you were used to.

Curious how many of us would bet our lives that:
a. we know what edge angles the factory set our skis at
b. our skis are indeed set at those angles now
c. they'll be that way after they're serviced next time

I would suggest that no one make that bet!

Most of us have had good and bad service experiences. It can be edges, angles, structure, and any combo of those things compared to what we were used to with the status quo ante, whether it was correct or not.

A lesson I've learned the hard way is: after skis are serviced, by you or anybody, ski them before taking a trip on them. That way you can determine if they ski right in time to fix it if they don't.

I'm very careful with new skis because in my experience the edges will never be as good as virgin. I try to stay out of the shop for as long as possible; its almost always a different shop person each time so its a bit of a crap shoot. So I try and avoid that day. But when it comes, give your tech the data they need to do the right job if they are otherwise capable of doing it.

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@Scooter in Seattle, service your skis yourself, or use a tech that you know and trust, and you can make that bet. Throw them at a random shop though... nah Laughing

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@Scooter in Seattle, you think "virgin" are the best edges?!

Honestly speaking "virgin" edges are bad...the very first thing I do is tune brand new skis...out of the box they will have burns, wandering angles, next to zero wax.
Tune!!

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I've bought several pairs of new skis (family of 4) and I've never touched them before first use (7-8 days skiing).

After first use, I will set their edge to 87/3 (when I first started DIYing I did 1 but I and others often found they lacked bite and then I read 3 was a good option) and then do a normal wax. After that after a weeks skiing it's just light edge and wax, ptexing and removing sidewall as necessary.

Never had any skis ground or touched the base edge.

Ski's are stored in a garage standing upright leaning in a corner.

And never any issues (firmly touching wood).

Last time I had my Stockli Stormriders serviced in St Anton I had what I think they said was 'comfort cut' which worked better than I'd had before

You know it makes sense.

In our experience most ski shops will service your skis in exactly the same way as every other pair that goes through in that batch. Irrespective of how they were / should be set up. Usually 1o base and 2/88o side, but not always. The only way to avoid this is to be a pain and insist on specific side and edge angles.

The greater the base angle the longer it takes before they grab the snow. The sharper (more acute) the combined base and edge angle. For example 1o base and 1o side = a 90o net angle which is forgiving whereas 0.5o base and 2o side = 88.5o angle which is more aggressive.

James - did they stone grind your bases? If not, I think it would be hard to go from a 1.5o base angle to a 0.5o angle. One would have to grind the base down to get to a flatter base edge angle.

If you are still out there using them and struggling then you can run a gummy stone down the tip and tail edge at about 45o to the corner to reduce the amount of grab you are getting. Don't do this in the middle 2/3rds though or you will lose your lovely ice grip. If you haven't got a gummy stone then take them back and ask them to de-tune slightly. Worst case you can use a stone from the ground (one that feels almost smooth to the touch) and gently run it along the bit of edge to de-tune. Not ideal but practical.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

[quote="James the Last"]

I’m intrigued that they made the base angle lower = catchier; but the side angle higher = less sticky. The two characteristics seem to be going in opposite directions.

That's not how it works. The 3o edge is actually more 'sticky'. An 87o (3o) edge is cutting the edge metal from the outside of the bottom / base edge in towards the sidewall of the skis. The maximum edge angle comes from a low base edge and high side edge angle.

For example a 0o edge and a 88o (2o) side gives a net 88o corner point. 0o base and 87o (3o) side gives a net 87o corner point. If you increase the base edge angle to 1o and keep the side edge at 88o (2o) you get a 89o corner point.

You wouldn't in reality want a 0o base edge angle as the skis would be very grabby and almost impossible to pivot or switch. Even racers don't go much below 0.5o base in general.

However, racers will happily to go a side edge angle of 86-87o (3-4o) to get excellent grip.

There's some pictures on this link that gives you an idea: https://the-raceplace.com/pages/how-to-tune-edges#:~:text=Table_title:%20Ski%20Racer%20Bevel%20Recommendations%20Table_content:%20header:,4%C2%B0%20%7C%20SG%20&%20DH:%203%C2%B0%20%7C

A snowHead

A snowHead

This wasnt just an edge+wax then but included a base grind?

In order to go from 1.5deg base angle to 0.5deg they'd have to grind the base flat first.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

My wive bought a second hand pair of slalom skis (she races on dry slopes). They had been “ceramiced” this puts a small burr on the edges and makes the skis grip incredibly. This is excellent for the top racers but my wife found the first few runs on them scary. Once a turn was initiated they wouldn’t stop. After the burrs wore down after a few runs she loved them.

I do the dry slope skis about half a degree on the base and 87 on the sides but TBH rarely do the base edges and just take the burrs off.

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Try and do it just under the plate, you can still get off edge then I find, it certainly is worrying when you can't get off edge. Imagine its worse at swad as the matting is much better than Gloucester. In fact I slightly ceramic one pair the daughters at a uniq camp at swad once and she didn't like them. We do both use it under the binding at Gloucester though these days. Im getting a problem with ptex getting gouged out next the the inside edge of my right ski at the moment, im putting it down to a combination of my weight and worn matting somewhere but if anyone else knows what is causing it please let me know. @johnE,

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Base material and it rips the araldite out again also. I have araldite one pair and belt sander it back but next session half of it was gone. Going to try and weld it with metal grip this time. It was happening a bit on my 157 dynastars but not that deep but I changed to some 150 rossis because i found them easier on tight courses but i trashed 2 pairs immediately, the ptex is gone right down to the core, can see a bit of the edge tangs. I thought the edge had pulled out a bit to start with because it was so deep and consistent but it hasn't because it is where it should be in relation to the side wall. I have 4 pairs of these rossi's, haven't used 2 pairs yet and im not going to until it has stopped happening.

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@charlieboden, that's my impression, and what happened to my skis before I knew better.

What we don't know is what base and edge angles @James the Last's skis had before this "expert" service. My guess is they'll have been set to whatever the shop in L’Oxalys have their machine set to as standard. Does anyone know what that is?

After all it is free

No. There was no base grind done. (That would have cost more. They definitely did not do that.)

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On sharpening Stockli Stormriders

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