 Poster: A snowHead
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Jeez Origen, can’t believe you just posted that!!
We all have children and grandchildren that ski; young and teenagers.
It is a way of showing how we hurt even though many of us not affected directly.
This tragic event has affected all of us in some way
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I guess it's the youth and relatability of the victims. As well as the nature of incidents like this with the live video. Of course we have had our own version with 70 dead and as many injured. But we all ski, go to basement bars an ddrink Champagne and have kids who we'd be happy to have doing the same. But I don't think thta many of us live in a council block or have kids we hope will aspire to that.
Please do not misunderstand me. I feel vicarioulsy upset about those kids and now what seems to be a much darker story. I have 3 lads- 24, 21 and 16- they all ski, they all go out to night clubs and get pissed. Na dth edarker bits if anyone hasn't read the Mail article. the owner has convictions for fraud and procuring protitutes, is banned from running buisnesses in France and had suddenly accrued a property portfolio in Crans, drives a Bently and is from a 'well known' Corsican family. The fire doors were kept locked and the extinguishers in a room that was also often locked (I'm guessing kids had set them off before as a ( stupid) prank).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@susieski, ...well...I think that Origen has been open in exploring the precise motivation behind public expression of concern by people not directly associated with a dire event or death....I think it can be supportive and concerned at one end of the spectrum but self indulgent and self-aggrandising at the other...if not intrusive on those directly affected. Like Origen I had a partner who died - of cancer when only 30 - and goodness I learned a lot about how much other people expected me to deal with their sense of loss and worse, their interpretation of what it meant 'in the great scheme of things' - when I needed something very different to cope with the profound loss. In respect of Crans, speaking entirely on my part, if I felt that something was not in place to support those recovering or there was a failure of justice and action, I would be seriously considering what I could do practically to act - fundraise, lobby, talk to media etc. For example, immediately after the fire, two qualified psychologist friends next door to us in the village offered services to the Crans Montana Commune to better support victims and families. But now there is action by authorities at so many levels, pursuing failings, and supporting all....
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| Quote: |
It is a way of showing how we hurt
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If joining in some public demonstration helps you feel better, @susieski, by helping you to cope with your feelings, then that's good. But I don't think you can presume, one way or another, about how your expressing your feelings is going to help those who are coping with such overwhelming losses. I think if I were one of those bereaved local families, right now, I'd be looking forward to the day when the whole media circus moved on and I wasn't expected to respond in some way to a whole lot of "others" expressing THEIR feelings. Quite often one hears pleas from families who have suffered great loss for people to respect their feelings and leave them in peace. I think that's how I'd feel. As for others locally who had loved ones who'd died, or were terribly injured in that fire, I suspect I would derive great comfort from some, and find others difficult to cope with and quite draining.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agreed re media circus. But I remember losing someone close to me through a shocking suicide and there was a large public display of grief among our work colleagues, its was lovely and appreciated. Cathartic.
The other interesting thing is I remember speaking to a counsellor who said that people's relationship with death, with a sidden tragic bereavement, is similar for about a week, and then people start going off in different ways. I've seen that in person with other deaths, its very interesting.
So no surprise at a divergence of opinion here.
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Anyone else find the continued use of sparklers / roman candles (for ‘drinks trains’) in ski resorts is tasteless? Seen it a couple of times in St Anton and Kitzbuehel now…
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@susieski, interesting presumption, but we don't all have kids or grand kids. I have a 15 year old nephew, but drinking champagne in a fancy nightclub is so far away from his lifestyle that I don't make the connection. The incident has more affected me in how I think about the venues I go to.
@hamilton, I don't think tasteless, it can be a slippery slope if we start stopping everything connected with any tragedy. I do think it's perhaps foolish and needless though
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @hamilton, I don't think tasteless, it can be a slippery slope if we start stopping everything connected with any tragedy. I do think it's perhaps foolish and needless though |
It's way more than foolish.
Typically these things - as used at Le Constellation - are not simply "sparklers" (like the ones on little sticks that people wave on bonfire night). Rather they are pyrotechnic devices (mini "gerbs") that spray a jet of sparks.
As others have pointed out - in recent years they have started fires that have killed many hundreds at multiple events in gigs and nightclubs across Europe and the Americas. E.g The Station in Rhode Island (100 dead in 2003), Kiss in Brazil (242 dead in 2013), Macedonia (63 dead in 2025).
There is no way anyone should be continuing to use them in small enclosed restaurants and clubs. Only in large arena and theatre productions with rigorous safety arrangements.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@frejul, it depends entirely on the venue
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @frejul, it depends entirely on the venue |
Yes - and nightclubs / restaurants are not appropriate venues. Particularly not the type typically found in ski resorts (e.g. low ceilings and wood panels).
Just have a look at the list of events triggered by pyrotechnics in small venues here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nightclub_fires
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, sadly, it doesn’t… the honesty and professionalism of the venue owners is also relevant, as @frejul points out. It would seem regulation may be appropriate… as an aside, several people in tonight’s après destination showed surprise at the roman candles… but ymmv.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@hamilton, of the venue matters, in a concrete bunker it wouldn't be an issue. Context is important.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, +1...we don't have children or grandchildren
A local bar/resto here in Flachau posted on Facebook a photo of the owner carrying a tray of shots with a significant sparkler in the middle. I called it out as thoughtless and restless. About 12 people...including a snowhead...agreed with me, one person said I was ridiculous, and about 60 liked the post with a fair number tagging others. The post was taken down, i messaged to say thanks..they said it was their Social Media company that had posted it along with a slap forehead emoji
The takeaway is that the sparklers won't stop, people want it, but better not to put it on Facebook a few days after a tragedy.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think this stuff - people feeling unhappy about indoors fireworks & locked fire escapes - is entirely natural. Perhaps it can help drive better safety. No one will be whining about fire regs being "woke" for a while at least.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I would like to think that the snow sports family is tight enough that no patron wouldn’t be given at least a side glance for allowing a firework to be stuck in a drink. Even on a terrace.
Respect innit?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
Didnt see it reported in the English media but did see in the European media that both the DJ and the door man had died trying to rescue people. Also, the bar manager is in a coma with very serious burns.
Not sure about the poor waitress who was up on the shoulders. Not really her fault tbh but it would be an awful burden to bear. Christ its so awful thinking about the amount of kids who didn't get out of there. |
She died.
Everyone should read this. |
SFr. 40k? A month? Mmh... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Given that kind of shady backstory, I would not be surprised to find out that a few backhanders were the reason for the lack of inspections. Not saying that's it, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
the risk of grandstanding
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Mmm. Maybe it's just me and my uptight Britishness, but these "public outpourings of emotion" from people not directly affected bother me. I feel they are often self-indulgent. |
It seems to be personality driven. There are people who lived through very traumatic events without developing PTSD because of good resilience/stable mental health and those who constantly look forward to any drama to dive into self-indulged suffering. Looks strange but it is their choice as long as they do not involve others in that...
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Swiss media are reporting that, for the injured, insurance limits and denied liabilities may come into play for the claims of the injured. They will require millions of euros/chf in continuing treatment, of compensation for suffering and for denied life opportunities.
There is the potential direct liability of the owners, but limitations posed by insurers if the owners failed to comply with building regs, which is pretty clear that they did. So that leaves their personal wealth as a source, which will barely scratch the surface of the needs.
The Commune is in line of sight, due to the failure to inspect. But again, limitations are being quoted.
The Canton is in line, since some of the regulations are Cantonally-based, but implemented by the Commune. Again, limitations.
All of the insurers are busily fingering their policy conditions...
The lawyers, of course, could do the right thing and waive the fees from their many, many briefs on this one and donate it to a fund for the injured. I am sure the pig flying past my window would feel the same.
What should one do? light a candle? Make a heart on the slopes...no...watch the proceedings unfold, keep attention for the years this is going to take, see how far the shortfall is...then ORGANISE. Petition Euro MPs...oh sh---t we don't have any...so write direct to Brussels, petition the Swiss Federal Gov to make a fund available, etc etc. '...Watch and act boys, watch and act...'. But let's not forget over the coming months and years, eh....snowheads may be a small community but it contains some big hearts, some highly competent people who work with government, and some legal hounds (you know who you are...)
Two hundred Snowheads arriving in ski gear with kit - at the Swiss Parliament - to present a petition - with the world's media alerted and watching, could actually achieve a lot....at the right time
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The total compensation and penalty bill could easily top $50-100m.
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@valais2, Might the Swiss be prepared to knock up a decent "go fund me" campaign to help those with lifelong disfigurements and disabilities? Not as if Switzerland is a poor country or anything, and I bet there'd be plenty of donations from around the world too.
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@valais2, It'd be a shame if Switzerland reverted to type and insisted on being pedantic and petty when a bit of compassion would be more appropriate
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@valais2, all those people, failed completely by a system failing to do what it is supposed to 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| aklos wrote: |
It seems to be personality driven. There are people who lived through very traumatic events without developing PTSD because of good resilience/stable mental health and those who constantly look forward to any drama to dive into self-indulged suffering. Looks strange but it is their choice as long as they do not involve others in that... |
I'm not saying its right for third parties to project their feelings onto grieving families, but I disagree with you that PTSD is caused by lack of resilience/mental stability. In fact a lack of willingness to talk or express emotions (which can be interpreted as resilience) can be a strong indicator that something is going very wrong.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Cometspi, However, not everyone gets something from "talking therapy". Having a spectrum issue can have an impact on how well such things work, as well as alter how people deal with grief. What some people perceive as an "incorrect" way of dealing with personal grief might actually be the best way for some individuals. The assumption that talking always helps can itself sometimes be unhelpful.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Which is why I was careful to use the term 'can be' to counter the implied assumption that Aklos made that PTSD results from a lack of resilience/mental stability.
I'm speaking here from experience. Both with mental health and mental health emergencies, as well as the trauma that can, unfortunately, sometimes result from dealing with those mental health emergencies.
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Way more than 50 or a 100 million. Swiss medical bills for decades to come (and international ones, people were flown all over Europe). Loss of earnings / expectations of what were probably very wealthy people. Death, serious disfigurement of very young people. Lawyers everywhere. I'd say way more than a billion tbh.
Personally I would go after the commune also they seem really at fault too.
Also unclear if the madam did in fact leave with the cash register through a side door. Reports from interview suggests she went out the front and appears to have called emergency services. The "step son" was interviewed on swiss tv and my limited french suggests he met her out the front. She also may be visible in the sequined dress in the video that shows the start of the stampede to the front.
I would think the right thing to do here is for the limitless swiss coffers to cover anything which ultimately isn't covered by insurance, hopefully that's what ends up happening.
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You know it makes sense.
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Vail Resorts who own 85% of the lift company, and possibly other assets in the town, have been very quiet on this so far. Although they are not immediately connected to the disaster, I assume there might be reputational damage towards CM and an impact on visitor numbers in the future.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Its funny but by example I have skied in Kaprun which had a much worse disaster, entirely the fault of the lift operator, that i had never even heard of so you never know. That was pre social media though.
Galtur I had heard of.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@8611, It is strange isn't it, Kaprun and the Bradford fire have both disappeared from many people's memory unless they are reminded.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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BUT: for the Swiss to come up with some sort of voluntary / state compensation scheme they must first accept that the 'system' has failed. This may be more painful for them than providing the money.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Cometspi wrote: |
Which is why I was careful to use the term 'can be' to counter the implied assumption that Aklos made that PTSD results from a lack of resilience/mental stability.
I'm speaking here from experience. Both with mental health and mental health emergencies, as well as the trauma that can, unfortunately, sometimes result from dealing with those mental health emergencies. |
It is not a discussion for this thread but i would advise you to study the subject before relying on your experience.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That is amazing.
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| aklos wrote: |
| Cometspi wrote: |
Which is why I was careful to use the term 'can be' to counter the implied assumption that Aklos made that PTSD results from a lack of resilience/mental stability.
I'm speaking here from experience. Both with mental health and mental health emergencies, as well as the trauma that can, unfortunately, sometimes result from dealing with those mental health emergencies. |
It is not a discussion for this thread but i would advise you to study the subject before relying on your experience. |
I think you're assuming that I'm relying here on personal experience where I'm relying on professional experience, training & knowledge. And I'll put this here because it's an important general point, but if you want to talk more about trauma and resilience I'm happy to exchange DMs.
I said, 'can be' which acknowledges that people are different. You reaction to trauma is absolutely fine for you, as is any other reaction so long as no harm comes to others. And I will absolutely counter a sweeping statement which message that an emotional response or PTSD is a lack of resilience or unstable mental health. It's the kind of shaming that leads to (particularly certain demographics) not talking or expressing emotions until it's too late.
It's OK to not be Ok as they say. Having been at the raw end of 'too late' or 'nearly too late' dozens of times it's a message that is personally very important to me.
I'll leave it there. Apologies to everyone else for taking the thread off on a tangent.
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@Cometspi, no need to apologise imo, well said.
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| valais2 wrote: |
The lawyers, of course, could do the right thing and waive the fees from their many, many briefs on this one and donate it to a fund for the injured. I am sure the pig flying past my window would feel the same.
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Absolutely. And don't forget the doctors and nurses treating the patients. They should also donate their fees to the fund for the injured. /s
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @Cometspi, no need to apologise imo, well said. |
+1
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| monkey wrote: |
| valais2 wrote: |
The lawyers, of course, could do the right thing and waive the fees from their many, many briefs on this one and donate it to a fund for the injured. I am sure the pig flying past my window would feel the same.
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Absolutely. And don't forget the doctors and nurses treating the patients. They should also donate their fees to the fund for the injured. /s |
There is a distinct difference here. Medical staff are paid to treat the injured and would be being paid even if this had not happened. However casualties deserve the best outcome. If that involves needing to pay lawyers ?
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FAQ
