 Poster: A snowHead
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@charlieboden, my point was (if I have understood any of this):
Factory setting base 1.5, 2. Total thus 86.5
Shop did: 0.5, 1. Total thus 88.5.
So they set the bases more aggressively, at 0.5 not 1.5. Yet they set the overall angle at only 88.5, much less than the standard 86.5, which amounts to a much softer tune, being much less acute than the factory.
If I’ve understood this, these two characteristics are going in opposite directions.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| James the Last wrote: |
@charlieboden, my point was (if I have understood any of this):
Factory setting base 1.5, 2. Total thus 86.5
Shop did: 0.5, 1. Total thus 88.5.
So they set the bases more aggressively, at 0.5 not 1.5. Yet they set the overall angle at only 88.5, much less than the standard 86.5, which amounts to a much softer tune, being much less acute than the factory.
If I’ve understood this, these two characteristics are going in opposite directions. |
My understanding is completely different (and could be completely wrong):
1. A 1.5,2 gives a final (net) edge angle of 89.5 deg
2. A 0.5,1 gives a final (net) edge angle of 89.5 deg...but the skis would feel more aggressive with the edges biting sooner.
3. The shop could not have changed the base angle from 1.5 to 0.5 deg without a base grind....Therefore the base angle is the same as before if no base grind was undertaken.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 18-12-25 11:50; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I could be wrong here but the edge angle is always going to be working of whatever the base edge is. So if set to 3 it will always be 3 whatever the base angle. Because the edge tool engages at that angle. Hope my explanation makes sense - but I am only a DIYing not a proper ski tech guy.
Setting the base edge closer to zero means that more precision is needed by the skier. Having a 1 degree bases edge gives the skier some wiggle room. Same caveat as above.
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| Layne wrote: |
I could be wrong here but the edge angle is always going to be working of whatever the base edge is. So if set to 3 it will always be 3 whatever the base angle. Because the edge tool engages at that angle. Hope my explanation makes sense - but I am only a DIYing not a proper ski tech guy.
Setting the base edge closer to zero means that more precision is needed by the skier. Having a 1 degree bases edge gives the skier some wiggle room. Same caveat as above. |
A setting of 1,3 gives a final net edge angle of 88 deg
A setting of 1.2 gives a final net edge angle of 89 deg
A setting of 1,1 gives a final net edge angle of 90 deg
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Layne wrote: |
| I could be wrong here but the edge angle is always going to be working of whatever the base edge is. So if set to 3 it will always be 3 whatever the base angle. |
Not if you are doing it by hand. The file guide rests on the flat part of the base, it isn't affected by the small section next to the edge that has been bevelled.
Making servicing machines work differently to this would be a bad idea, I have seen no evidence that they do.
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Agree that the side angle is taken from aggregated/planar reference of flat base of ski. And so not referenced to whichever grind specification has been used for base edge detail.
In which 90= zero in ski nomenclature. And so on, with 89=1 etc, to 87=3 from flat base reference.
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| Quote: |
Setting the base edge closer to zero means that more precision is needed by the skier. Having a 1 degree bases edge gives the skier some wiggle room. Same caveat as above.
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Agree with this.
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The shop could not have changed the base angle from 1.5 to 0.5 deg without a base grind....Therefore the base angle is the same as before if no base grind was undertaken.
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And this too. They'd have to grind base as whole to move to 0.5 from original. As they need more material there to bring it in that direction. Effectively, grind flat, then established 0.5 which they haven't reportedly done.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| James the Last wrote: |
@charlieboden, my point was (if I have understood any of this):
Factory setting base 1.5, 2. Total thus 86.5
Shop did: 0.5, 1. Total thus 88.5.
So they set the bases more aggressively, at 0.5 not 1.5. Yet they set the overall angle at only 88.5, much less than the standard 86.5, which amounts to a much softer tune, being much less acute than the factory.
If I’ve understood this, these two characteristics are going in opposite directions. |
My understanding is completely different (and could be completely wrong):
1. A 1.5,2 gives a final (net) edge angle of 89.5 deg
2. A 0.5,1 gives a final (net) edge angle of 89.5 deg...but the skis would feel more aggressive with the edges biting sooner.
3. The shop could not have changed the base angle from 1.5 to 0.5 deg without a base grind....Therefore the base angle is the same as before if no base grind was undertaken. |
Agree completely with this
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| James the Last wrote: |
@charlieboden, my point was (if I have understood any of this):
Factory setting base 1.5, 2. Total thus 86.5
Shop did: 0.5, 1. Total thus 88.5.
So they set the bases more aggressively, at 0.5 not 1.5. Yet they set the overall angle at only 88.5, much less than the standard 86.5, which amounts to a much softer tune, being much less acute than the factory.
If I’ve understood this, these two characteristics are going in opposite directions. |
Hi James. No. As OFB says. The greater the base edge angle the lower (less grippy) the net angle. Try drawing it on a bit of paper starting with a perfect rectangle of 90o then adjust from there
Assuming your base edge was 1.5o they can't have made it 0.5o without a base grind ASDA wood effectively mean adding metal to the bottom of the base Edge which is clearly impossible.
So if the base edge was 1.5 degrees and the shop did one degree side Edge you would have ended up with a 90.5 degree Edge angle which would not have been grippy in the slightest as it would be obtuse rather than acute.
If I was you I would take your skis along to a local ski shop and ask them to measure the edge angles and tell you what you're actually got and then go from there. Any competent ski tech should be able to do that quite straightforwardly.
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| charlieboden wrote: |
If I was you I would take your skis along to a local ski shop and ask them to measure the edge angles and tell you what you're actually got and then go from there. Any competent ski tech should be able to do that quite straightforwardly. |
I was just about to type the same thing. The OP needs an accurate data point to understand how things currently stand.
I would also suggest that Manufacturers' stated angles will likely have a margin of error and thus should be taken with a pinch of salt.
"If you don't measure it, you are less likely to fix it".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@James the Last, I would also add...
The Base Angle has more to do with Responsiveness....but also affects the Overall (Net) angle.
The Side Angle is to do with Grip....but is effected by what the Base Angle is set to.
The Overall (Net) Angle is made up from a combination of the above two....and the further you move away from a 90 deg Overall angle, with smaller angles, the more grip you get, but the quicker the edge loses its sharpness.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
@James the Last, I would also add...
The Base Angle has more to do with Responsiveness....but also affects the Overall (Net) angle.
The Side Angle is to do with Grip....but is effected by what the Base Angle is set to.
The Overall (Net) Angle is made up from a combination of the above two....and the further you move away from a 90 deg Overall angle, with smaller angles, the more grip you get, but the quicker the edge loses its sharpness. |
Hopefully to expand a little:- the base angle does exactly that, shifts the response the skier gets from leaning demand. Closer to zero simply shortens response time in getting to edge the ski.
The net angle doesn't provide "grip" per se, but facilitates the action. The side/edge angle is to give clearance in allowing the ski to go further in depth to the substrate its running on.
The grip comes from the support that action gives. If you go to the piste surface just underneath the base side, it'll gave a geometry (something like a little triangle) from its contact with ski base to the surface of piste, that controls how much snow/ice material is in that shear plane. The more snow etc in there, the harder it is to break that shear plane bond. Then the more load it can support in extremis.
A notional 90 degree edge angle will simply not let the ski cut into the piste surface as much as a 87 degree angle. Therefore the 87 degree angle will support far more skier angle/attack/speed/radius deployment etc, that because its harder to break that shear bond.
The 90degree to 87 degree shift doesn't fundamentally change the ""sharpness" much at all, its how far it'll sink into the surface that's the control factor. That dynamic coming from the "clearance" the side edge is set to.
A notional 89 degree edge spec is not going to give any more initial "grip" than one set at 87. Pushed further into load though, and the 89 will start to break the shear plane of support earlier then the 87 spec, which will make them suitable for different use profile/skill set.
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Given the base angle can't have been reset without a grind, I'd suggest the extra responsiveness comes from them not de-tuning the tips and tails. Lots of shops seem to de-tune (blunt them a bit) the tips+tails as otherwise customers come back complaining of the service resulting in their skis being catchy.
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You know it makes sense.
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@ski3, I'm a "Bear of very little brain", so like to keep things simple. Physics aside, isn't it true to say that the end result of reducing Side Edge Angle eg. 90deg to 87deg is to give more "bite", which gives more grip?
I suspect changing Base Edge Angle has a more profound effect on how the skis behave...but you need to understand what you're doing if you decide to change it.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 19-12-25 10:31; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Old Fartbag, In that context, yes - Your edge will find less resistance to cutting into the top layer of snow or ice and get better purchase, and allow you to put more pressure onto it before starting to slip.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
@ski3, I'm a "Bear of very little brain", so like to keep things simple. Physics aside, isn't it true to say that the end result of reducing Side Edge Angle eg. 90deg to 87deg is to give more "bite", which gives more grip?
I suspect changing Base Edge Angle has a more profound effect on how the skis behave...but you need to understand what you're doing if you decide to change it. |
To put it another way, it seems common perception that changing the angle is the overriding attribute and making it sharper is the "grip" when a change from 90 to 87 is in reality very small and not shifting that much in absolute terms in "sharpness" .
The "grip" coming from the ski's location in (how far it cuts) the surface, to then give the ski the support to take more load from skier.
More definitive, the "grip" is produced by the geometry that's cut into the surface, the angles are the method of cutting into that surface. The sharpness of the included angle is not the "grip" in and of itself.
Can't immediately think of another analogy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My freestyle and big skis seem to run a 1.5 base angle and 1.5 side, my race skis 0.5/3. I have never messed with them deliberately.
Only once has someone I advertently altered this, when I needed a base grind on some old DPS Cassiars, and they went shallower than factory. But in reality, as a recreational all-mountain ski, it just didn't matter, and quickly detuning the edges at tip and tail made them absolutely fine...not noticeably worse at sliding, as i just didn't think those minute angle differences make a big difference on piste, and when you are adjusting your edge approach angle yourself unconsciouslyanyway with your feet. They were, however, better on edge (but probably just because they were sharp for the first time in years), so I was happy. They were no worse at anything else.
In fact, the only time I have ever found an overly shallow edge angle too much to deal with was when i tried to slide a rail on GS skis. But I also put that one down to user error/lack of skill/stupidity. Blaming my edge angle is more comforting that having to admit i was being a cretin and thus hurt myself 
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 19-12-25 11:02; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, In that context, yes - Your edge will find less resistance to cutting into the top layer of snow or ice and get better purchase, and allow you to put more pressure onto it before starting to slip. |
Yes, exactly this.
The effect is to try and slide the bit of ice/snow (that's now supporting the ski / board) over the part its attached to that's not being forced by the action, between the two is "shear" with more shear plane comes higher load capacity.
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Thanks all. So the overall edge angle is 89.5 whether by the shop or manufacturer. The only difference is how early it grips.
I don’t understand the base grind point though. Just shave a bit more off the bottom to move it from 1.5 to 0.5. Thus the bottom bevel will be approx three times the width it was before. I’ve no idea how wide it is normally and Google isn’t helping me (beyond “base bevels are measured in degrees not millimetres”!)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| I don’t understand the base grind point though. Just shave a bit more off the bottom to move it from 1.5 to 0.5. |
Yes, shave a bit more off the bottom is correct. However, when you start, the base edge meets the ski base at the same level. If you shave a bit off the base edge at the lowest point, it will sit higher than the ski base, so to compensate, a base grind then also takes a bit off the base material and makes them level again. Does that make sense?
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Maybe I'm misreading this, but a base grind won't change the base angle unless you grind it all the way down back to zero, then recut the angle to whatever reduced angle you want. The old barber joke applies - you can always take more off, but its hard to add it back on.
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I see it the same @Richard_Sideways, easy to make the base angle greater, as you note though, to reduce that angle would ordinarily require reset to flat and then grind the final at 0.5 to be technically correct.
All illustration of base edge geometry seem to agree that its only contained within the width of the steel edge, not going into p-tex area of base.
Something described here
"Base Edge Angles
Base edge angles affect how far the point on your edges gets lifted off the snow when the ski is flat, and generally range from 0 to 3 degrees. A smaller angle will help the ski initiate turns quickly, but can make things happen a little too quickly. Terrifying. Conversely, a larger angle will take longer to initiate turns, but will be more predictable.
For harder snow, a smaller base edge angle is beneficial. For softer snow / powder, a larger base edge angle is better. From a tuning perspective, decreasing the base edge angle generally necessitates a stone grind to reset to zero followed by hand filing with a guide to reach the desired angle.
Some recommendations:
<1 degree: expert ski racers. Slalom skiers might be around 0--0.5 degrees, while a super-g or downhill racer might be closer to 1 degree.
1 degree: as close as it comes to the golden angle. Generally a good starting place on an unfamiliar ski. Many very good skiers have never been on anything else.
2 degree: very forgiving, almost unresponsive ski. Can be good for a dedicated powder ski that will never see hardpack, or for freestyle moguls or park & pipe.
In general, if a ski feels overly twitchy and aggressive, increase the base edge angle. If a ski feels unreactive and unwilling to initiate turns, decrease the base edge angle. Adjustments will have more effect on harder snow."
Has discussion of same topic as this thread. From this https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/14975/relation-of-ski-edge-sharpening-to-skiing-ability-and-snow-conditions source.
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@Richard_Sideways, correct.
@James the Last, the base angle is only on the edge. So it's slopes up from the point at which the metal edge joins the base (ptex, which remains flat). If that is angled up at 1.5deg by filing off material from the edge, you can't put that material back.
All you can do, is grind the base until its flat across base and edge then file the base edge to 1/2deg.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I am learning much from this thread!
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@adithorp, that's a great diagram, but it really needs to be rotated 90 degrees. I'm currently looking at my SkiMan file guide, marked 88 degrees, which would produce your diagram, because the datum point *(i think that's the right terminology) is the flat surface of the ski base, NOT including the base edge bevel, to produce an edge angle of 89 degrees. You minus the green angle from the red angle to get 89 degrees edge angle.
I did Spyder Johns tuning course, and had a go on the Weinsteiger grinder. To produce edge angles you use a rubber drum, put the ski in the middle of the drum and use an arm that can have a different weight applied to it. You're pressing the ski into something with known "give", with the edges getting more of a beating. There may be other, more exact ways of doing it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Adding to the discussion https://whiteroomcustomskis.com/2021/12/tuning-concepts/ is a more nuanced approach to the topic of base edge angle.
Likely not for everyone, but expands the thinking a little outside the factory general production view of skis and their potential/capability into more specific adaption.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="joffy69"]@adithorp, that's a great diagram, but it really needs to be rotated 90 degrees. I'm currently looking at my SkiMan file guide, marked 88 degrees, which would produce your diagram, because the datum point *(i think that's the right terminology) is the flat surface of the ski base, NOT including the base edge bevel, to produce an edge angle of 89 degrees. You minus the green angle from the red angle to get 89 degrees edge angle.[b]
Your side edge angle 88o guide will produce the 2o edge angle shown in the picture above. It doesn’t matter what plane the ski is in as long as the 88o side of the plastic face of the guide is flat on the PTEX of the base.
Worth also noting that whilst diamond files are not directional, most rougher files are and have an arrow on them indicating which way they work.
NB it is generally good practice to do all edging work before applying any wax (otherwise your files will just get clogged up with wax and won’t sharpen anything) and to do the base edge angle first followed by the side edge. Unless you’re a racer, you probably won’t need to do the base edge angle more than once per season as part of cleaning up your skis ready for use.
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Cleaning metal files, of both contaminates (wax etc) and the small metal filings, these are used in professional metal work environments https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nicholson-File-Card-Brush-Pack/dp/B001KVM2H2?tag=amz07b-21 a combined file car/brush to clear the teeth and ieep the file cutting as it was designed to.
A simple Suede brush, with brass bristles pretty effective too and readily available at low cost.
If the teeth aren't cleaned regularly when using, then you'll feel the debris rolling along under the file like a fine gravel effect. Where as a clean cutting application will feel very smooth with even pressure.
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You know it makes sense.
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I ski on Stockli Montero AX, set at 1 and 2, and they grip!
If no base grind was done then your base edge will not have changed.
15 years of being a ski tech (trained by Spyderjon) only a handful of people know their edges, I go with factory recommend settings, the Piste Office edge guide is very good.
I have a handful of clients who specify their edge angles, usually to 1 and 3.
As my mentor taught me I tune the full ski, there are a couple of clients who like the tip and tail detuned, you can grab a gummy stone and do it yourself.
It's not uncommon for a shop to use their standard which is usually 1 and 2, it's the most common setting across manufactures.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thank you all. @adithorp, what an excellent diagram thank you. Most of this thread could have been avoided had that appeared earlier! @radar very interesting thank you.
So, what did happen?
1. They can’t have changed the base angle as they definitely did not do a base grind.
2. They ski like a completely different pair of skis.
3. They grip like they’ve been welded to the ice.
4. They grip much earlier i.e. closer to the body-centre-line (in short turns). This would be consistent with a reduced base angle, but see ‘1’ above.
5. We ‘all’ ‘know’ modern skis should not be detuned. Though they did offer too.
And what do I do the next time I want them servicing, as they’re probably not going to feel like this afterwards.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| James the Last wrote: |
Thank you all. @adithorp, what an excellent diagram thank you. Most of this thread could have been avoided had that appeared earlier! @radar very interesting thank you.
So, what did happen?
1. They can’t have changed the base angle as they definitely did not do a base grind.
2. They ski like a completely different pair of skis.
3. They grip like they’ve been welded to the ice.
4. They grip much earlier i.e. closer to the body-centre-line (in short turns). This would be consistent with a reduced base angle, but see ‘1’ above.
5. We ‘all’ ‘know’ modern skis should not be detuned. Though they did offer too.
And what do I do the next time I want them servicing, as they’re probably not going to feel like this afterwards. |
James, you posted a link to an old thread in your original post. I think the most pertinent post in that is the penultimate one which essentially says play around with the settings until you find what you're happy with.
Personally I love sharp grippy edges and try and keep them that way especially when piste conditions are hard. They are however your skis and it's all about what makes you happy when you're skiing.
Whatever you end up with for your settings you've started an interesting thread with lots of good comments so thank you for that
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sounds like the ski shop could have left a hanging burr when they filed the side edges. This would make the skis very grabby and hard to pivot. If so it should wear off after a few hours of skiing on a firm piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@James the Last, The hanging burr had cross my mind, that would make the ski grabby and possibly inconstant , you could get a gummy stone and run on the base edge, weirdly it's one of my fav route things to do once the side edge is tuned.
I asked 8 customers that came in after I posted if they knew their edge angles, none did 
Today I did a pair of Salomon which should be 1 and 2, they were 1 and 3, the client had no idea, they just handed them in at the resort show and picked them up the next day.
Unfortunately you can't compare to what they were like new.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It does sound like a hanging burr - I've had that on rentals and I swear they were trying to kill me - but I'd be surprised if that lasted all day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@James the Last, personally I'd start by getting a baseline, i.e. confirm what base and edge angles your skis currently have. That may be something @radar could help with? Then you'll know what you've got currently and what to ask a ski tech to do.
If I was getting my skis serviced by a shop, I'd carry a gummy stone, as that can sort out both a hanging burr and also detune them a bit of they were too "grabby."
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@James the Last, I would not get too hung up on the maths and geometry of this.
You were unlucky to have a duff sharpen.
I've experienced this problem a few times...
I rented a pair of very nice skis at a small resort in Switzerland, I confidently popped them on and pushed off down a 3 metre bank into the kiddies playground where I landed embarassed on my Rs. I could not turn these darn skis, I did not know why at that point, I do now.
I took three pairs of skis in for a service in the UK, all six skis became a very difficult ride.
The answer was to dull down the tips by about 30cm and the tails with a gummy stone, then they could perform more comfortably, and still skate through the ice.
I got caught out again the other week at the Mountain Story. They usualy give me brand new kit, but I wanted Addikt Pros 76mm. They did not have a new pair, so I went out with a newly serviced pair, I recognised the problem on the first run, took them back.
They were reluctant to detune them. But gave me a brand new pair of Addickt Pro 66.
I think the lesson here is to only have your skis sharpened if they really need it and just go with a hot wax.
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Forgot to mention, I got to ride a pair of Storm Riders in 95.
They belong to a mate of mine and he insisted I give them a go.
I was reluctant as fat skis are not my style. I had tried a set of StormRiders years ago and I found them underwhelming.
But this pair were fantastic! I could not believe how agile they were, plus the air of confidence they gave me.
Right up to the point when I got twanged off right under the Bolin lift about 100m from the bottom. Embarrassed 
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@charlieboden, yes, it will, but the angle on the edge will be 89%. You should have your ski with it's base vertical, to work on the side edge.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Im not that familiar with the machines these shops use but my understanding is that they use a ceramic wheel much like the discman 4 that I use.
I can confirm that the medium grit wheels definitely leave a slight burr as is being suggested, especially if the wheel is adjusted out quite far from the guide.
Could it be possible that you should run something like a fine diamond file along the base edge to remove it, and it wasn't done for some reason?
I have actually just been preparing the families skis for next week and did just do that with a 600 diamond file set at 1.5 in the adjustable base guide, just out of paranoia from reading this really as I haven't even used the discman on them, I just use diamond files in a guide on the sides of our snow skis if there is no damage.
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FAQ
