 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I know he succeeds, yet I'm still holding my breath sitting on the edge of my seat. I'm awestruck - such beautiful skiing.
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Grooming is a bit crap....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Powder looks sweet
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Grooming is a bit crap.... |
I thought that given the location, the snow conditions looked amazing, as did the weather.
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Don’t you just hate it when someone has postholed your route.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Was surprised the drones worked at nearly 9000m, presume the "camera operator" was sitting at camp 4 at the South Col.
Does bring a new meaning to a "No fall zone"!
Must have been lucky with conditions as a good deal of the route is often bare ice.
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Epic
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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How was it so empty up at the summit? The footage I've seen of the Everest summit shows that it's littered with prayer flags.
I've just read the article, and he did it in September, after the mountain closed to all other expeditions (the main season is April/May), which is why there were no other climbers up there with them, but it was still so pristine.
https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/andrzej-bargiel-mount-everest
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
after the mountain closed to all other expeditions
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The mountain is never "closed", the Nepali government are more than happy to sell you a permit anytime you want one  Now is simply out of season, but possibly a better time for a ski descent. You just need enough backing (i.e red bull in this case or north face for Jim Morrison) to pay a team of Sherpas to put a route up and carry everything.
Arguably Jim Morrison descent on the north side is a more aesthetic line, will be nice when the video for that comes out.
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Was surprised the drones worked at nearly 9000m, presume the "camera operator" was sitting at camp 4 at the South Col.
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A few friends were working on a 7000m peak this summer where they were droning equipment up to a camp at 6000m.
They actually used the drone to direct him down through the ice fall. It has received some controversy. The project is as about as far from "solo" or "alpine style" as you can get
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| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Was surprised the drones worked at nearly 9000m, presume the "camera operator" was sitting at camp 4 at the South Col.
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A few friends were working on a 7000m peak this summer where they were droning equipment up to a camp at 6000m.
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There is a lot less air at 9000m than 6000m, I know there has been the odd emergency heli at the South Col (think Beck Wethers was brought down from there) but it is very difficult, very marginal and very risky for all involved. Drones are clearly a lot lighter, no idea of the power / weight ratio (or whatever the tech term is for rotary flying) even so it must be right on the limits. Impressive footage though, gives a real idea of just how difficult the climb to the summit is, hardly looks like a Mont Blanc style plod!
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You know it makes sense.
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I was on the Everest Base Camp trek when this happened - he did his decent a couple of days before we arrived at EBC. The whole area was very quiet (compared usual levels apparently) as it was the very start of the trekking season supposedly 'after' rainy season and most will spend some time at altitude (EBC) acclimatising before going any further so the mountain traffic would have been in a 'lull'. Pretty sure most of the gear (and possibly himself?) would have been choppered up the valley from Lukla to base camp or nearby Gorakshop at least.
Whilst the weather was good initially it turned quickly with a significant storm that hit the area hard 2 days after we left base camp (so 4 days after his decent) and the tourism levels on the trail had already shot up rapidly - i'd guess triple the amount going up as we were going down. Lots of people got in to pretty sticky situations including some deaths where AMS kicked in and couldn't get down quick enough. From hearing about the ski descent, getting to EBC ourselves, then seeing bodies recovered at Lukla it was a crazy trip.
Edit: I had hoped to to take a drone but was denied permission. When trekking and seeing the chopper traffic above and below the level of the trail I can see why and 100% agreed with the denial of permission.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@munich_irish, think Beck was from the ice fall and they had to strip the heli to do it. Not sure there's ever been a rescue much higher up, although there is footage of a French experimental helicopter allegedly (and illegally) landing on the summit
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Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="boarder2020"]
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They actually used the drone to direct him down through the ice fall. It has received some controversy. The project is as about as far from "solo" or "alpine style" as you can get |
I'm sure the pedants got excited about it but this is a skiing stunt not a mountaineering ethics objective. In fairness, getting to the summit at all, and making turns at 8000m plus without oxygen is pretty impressive, as is doing a 3000m plus descent. Can you imagine the lactics in the thighs?
Trying to do it solo without oxygen or drone support would be pretty close to suicide. That said I think kammerlander might have done a decent bit of it without oxygen and prob carried his own skis up and I think there was a Slovenian guy davo something who skied (and streamed) it decades ago
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@8611, you are right my memory was that he was taken off from camp IV but somehow he stumbled down much lower. Apparently there has been a rescue from just below the south col and there was the bod who somehow got to the summit, I presume he was on his own, no hope of getting a lift up or down!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
In fairness, getting to the summit at all, and making turns at 8000m plus without oxygen is pretty impressive, as is doing a 3000m plus descent. Can you imagine the lactics in the thighs?
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He didn't do the descent in one go, he slept overnight in one of the camps.
Tyler Andrews was trying to set the speed record from base camp to summit at a similar time and planned to go solo without oxygen. In the end there was too much snow so Sherpas went ahead to make a trail for him. (He ended up abandoning due to too much snow higher up).
I suspect he will try again, in which case we will probably see a summit time much faster than the ski descent time
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Trying to do it solo without oxygen or drone support would be pretty close to suicide. That said I think kammerlander might have done a decent bit of it without oxygen and prob carried his own skis up
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I think you are doing Kammerlander a huge disservice. You can read his opinion of the current attempt here; https://explorersweb.com/pioneer-everest-skier-criticizes-bargiels-carnival-ski-descent/
Kammerlander was nearly 30 years ago. Messners solo no O2 ascent was 45 years ago. The idea that a no O2 ascent is "close to suicide" is ridiculous, we should have moved on far past that point now. The fact that a bunch of dentists, lawyers, and influencers with more money than sense need it to get to the top while Sherpas do all the hard work is beside the point.
Of course it's an impressive feat and a cool project. But there is no reason why it couldn't be done better. Again, it's a case of finding a way to make something a world's first ("full ski descent"). He could have just summited and skied down to above the icefall and then walked through it without the need for drone guiding.
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What size skis did he use? In my experience of similar terrain, long skis do not help.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kammerlander seems like a grumpy old man alas. Don't think I did him a disservice, he did carry his skis up and did ski "a decent bit of it". It seems from exweb that he started 1000m below the summit, which is not a full ski descent unfortunately for him. He should have gone south if that's what his goal was. Skiing from the actual summit is much, much more impressive imo, whether there was a team with you or not. In any event he was still no O2 and looks from that that it was just him and Dawa above the South Summit and no fixed ropes either. So I assume the other Sherpa were stocking camps? Meh. I'm just interested in the skiing tbh.
I didn't mean a no 02 descent simpliciter was suicide, but a no o2 ski descent genuinely solo, ie Messner the second time, would be unnecessarily risky. Getting up there at all solo and no O2 is risky. Carrying skis makes it much harder given the extra load. Lads are regularly out of it up there, extremely tricky to ski down safely if you are borderline hallucinating. And if people are criticising him for using drones to assist with routefinding they have a serious lack of perspective. That only reduces the risk of the endeavour without removing the physical challenge, unless you are factoring in the expended effort taking wrong turns. I mean if you extend that to its full logic wearing socks is cheating, or gloves or using ropes, or looking at a photo of the route taken by someone else. Where does it stop?
There are unfortunatey large sections of the high altitude climbing fraternity who, if they are not dead are a long way up their own holes on this kind of thing. Also, given they generally venerate Messner as I recall Messner and Habeler were sponsored on their first descent and had ridiculous matching Fila kit they wore around the mountain and a film crew. Indeed, the first circuses in Himalayan climbing were mainly following Messner with his press conferences feeding his ego.
For me its a skiing achievement, that's what I'm interested in. That footage, literally skiing powder at 8,800m on a knife edge ridge is among the best pieces of skiing footage I've seen. If it hadn't been a big operation I wouldn't have seen it! Plus its a phenomenal physical achievement. So kudos to him.
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I am quite interested in why its only coming out now though? I wonder was there a legal dispute or something, or was the intention to release it as ski season was starting again?
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They need time to edit the footage.
(I hate it when casual friends sent me long clips of them doing something supposedly fun. 90% of the clips were boring as watching paint dry. I had to ask where the fun bits are. There maybe 30 seconds worth, then it’s back to watching paint dry)
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I could only watch about five minutes at a time, then was exhausted from squirming. I'll leave it to others to quibble about various purity details, but I think this is quite an accomplishment. Lucky he had good vis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One can, I think, either carp about details or appreciate what was done. Personally, this had me on the edge of my seat. I've skied a few 'No Fall Zones' with each, perhaps, lasting a few minutes at most before I'm back to 'safety'. To ski what looked like an entire mountain of NFZ, with a third of the normal oxygen, unknown and variable snow conditions, avalanche risk and having already exerted 17 hours of effort to ascend in the first place is so exceptional that I'm lost for words. Kudos.
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It's obviously a hell of an achievement notwithstanding the artificiality of the category (though probably better than unsupported no 02 carrying a toaster).
However it feels almost entirely high risk management rather than any joyful aspect of skiing and thus entirely unaspirational from my perspective.
Glad they documented it so well so those of us wired differently can appreciate it if if we say "hell no!".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
However it feels almost entirely high risk management rather than any joyful aspect of skiing and thus entirely unaspirational from my perspective.
Glad they documented it so well so those of us wired differently can appreciate it if if we say "hell no!". |
Hell, I don’t even get the point of climbing avalanche prone mountains such as K2 or Annapurna either. After the first ascent or first route, that is. Sure, they “prove” they’re excellent athletes. In some artificial category.
I’m pretty turned off by adrenaline junkies glorifying the risk they put themselves in at the mercy of the mountains. But I understand that their life. They get to live it as they see fit.
Nevertheless, I enjoy the footage they put together when it’s beautiful or exhilarating. I’m just not “inspired” by the “achievement”. It’s mere entertainment for me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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His expression when he tasted the red bull at the end was priceless!
The rest was pretty awesome too. While waiting for him to start the descent, the Mrs mentioned the last 400m ascent that "it's not far, he's nearly there", but remembering the many times I was lost in the back country where the last resort was climbing up to get a new route, that could've taken him a few hours I'd have thought?!?
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Kammerlander seems like a grumpy old man alas. Don't think I did him a disservice, he did carry his skis up and did ski "a decent bit of it".
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"He teamed with Messner, the first man to climb all fourteen 8000m peaks, on successful climbs of Cho Oyu, Gasherbrum I and II, Dhaulagiri, Makalu, and Lhotse, and is a UIAGM mountain guide (English, International Federation of Mountain Guide Associations).
From 1996 to 2006, he held the Guinness World Record for the fastest ascent without supplemental oxygen of Mount Everest (16 hours and 45 minutes) and fastest ascent from Everest North Base Camp.
In 1990 he made the first ski descent of Nanga Parbat. In 1996 he failed in an attempt to be the first to ski down Mount Everest, after removing his skis and climbing down from 300 metres below the summit, skiing down from 7700m, although he set a then speed record during that attempt of 17 hours to climb from base camp to the summit of Everest via the North Col."
Taken from Wikipedia. I think with that resume he's more than qualified to offer an informed opinion!
I think what irks me with these things is having to find a "world's first" for the sponsors and to claim some kind of record. It becomes so artificial. (Probably the best example of this is the women that was so far behind schedule there's was no hope of her completing her Antarctica traverse, but she carried on just to get the "longest" Antarctica expedition  ). It's not even the best mountaineering accomplishment that happened that month.
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Hell, I don’t even get the point of climbing avalanche prone mountains such as K2 or Annapurna either.
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Honestly high altitude mountaineering is pretty safe these days. Of course there's always a risk, but better equipment and forecasting as well as lots of people around to assist with rescues have changed things immensely. In an average week you can see plenty of people in chamonix putting themselves in more danger than the average 8000m climber.
I think in general it's a bit of a false assumption that the average 8000m climber is an adrenaline junkie. As someone that's done a few 7000m expeditions I can tell you it's far more boredom and suffering than adrenaline
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However it feels almost entirely high risk management rather than any joyful aspect of skiing and thus entirely unaspirational from my perspective.
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It's a good summary. Can't compete with a 30sec Instagram clip of Candide in putting a smile on your face.
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You know it makes sense.
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Re skis, would have thought he was using light weight SkiMo skis (not the off the shelf Salomon MTN 86 in the clip-picture), and SkiMo skis are not brilliant for most of the snow pack he encountered, there was very little fresh powder and most of the tracks he did make looked to be in wind blown snow, as there were whole sections, which initially looked "sweet" and not one track was visible which equates probably to windblown hard pack.
Skis might be one thing and maybe they were off the shelf (graphics suggest MTN 86), but I'd imagine his boots were obviously uber light soft & flexible maximised for the climb and most of us on this forum would have major issues in simply trying to ski in them, let alone with the light SkiMo skis.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@abc, if you had been to high altitude and sat around in base camps you'd realise most of the the climbers are not adrenaline junkies. Perhaps a few are, but the dynamic is much more comparable to say a group of marathon runners. It's a pretty boring affair, mostly sat around waiting for good weather and then walking up and down the same route carrying loads/acclimatising. All for the hope you get one good weather window. If you are looking for an adrenaline hit it's a really bad choice!
Same is true even for routes with avalanche risk. You generally do your best to limit exposure and travel at low risk times. Most are there despite of the risk rather than for it. If you look at the kind of people climbing K2 it's mostly a-type personality relative successful professionals.
I know a couple of very elite pro climbers. While from the outside you could look at some of the stuff they are doing as crazy and high risk I would say two things;
1. There is way more behind the scenes careful decision making weighing up potential danger than you might think.
2. Their mind is wired in a way that they don't really get an adrenaline hit. It's all quite emotionless, which I guess needs to be the case for them to perform in those kind of environments.
Your average piste skier is probably more of an adrenaline junkie!
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I'd like to think they enjoyed it, even if in some strange way that we don't quite understand
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I can only speak for myself, and the kind of stuff I've done obviously pails in comparison. It's like running a marathon. At the time it mostly sucks. Then afterwards you get a feeling of accomplishment. Then look for the next challenge and the cycle repeats.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The number of death vs summits speaks for itself.
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Yes because it includes deaths going back 60 years before advancements in weather forecasting and equipment.
For K2 over the last 4 years there has been 403 summits and 9 deaths. Of those deaths 1 was unknown cause. Only 2 were down to "environment" (1 was avalanche and 1 was rockfall). The rest were human error (falls, ams). Also worth remembering that there are usually a lot more climbers and people working on the mountain than the total number of summiters.
I think if you consider all the time people spend in dangerous terrain (and I'm not just talking high altitude there are plenty of very "normal" routes in the Alps with overhead or avalanche danger) you would actually see the risk of avalanche or serac death is extremely low.
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But it's the risk that attract them do it (as opposed to running yet another ultra marathon Wink ).
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Again, I don't think the vast majority are attracted to K2 because of the risk. They are attracted because the challenge of it being considered the hardest 8000m peak. They go despite the risk.
But again, I think if your thought of an adrenaline junkie is running ultra marathons we have very different definitions of adrenaline junkie
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Cave divers used to have a very high fatality rate, much in excess of these poser sports. The people involved are the opposite of adrenaline folk. That wastes air. But to ordinary folk the difference is neither here nor there I suppose.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Makes you wonder why its never been done before? miles quicker than hiking back down! which im sure is when the majority of fatalities occur?
Bit gutted he didnt flip one of them crevasses near the end.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
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The number of death vs summits speaks for itself.
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Yes because it includes deaths going back 60 years before advancements in weather forecasting and equipment.
For K2 over the last 4 years there has been 403 summits and 9 deaths. Of those deaths 1 was unknown cause. Only 2 were down to "environment" (1 was avalanche and 1 was rockfall). |
You’re cherry picking an arbitrary window. Only a few years before that, there was a year where quite a number of climbers all died in a single day! That’s what I called “high risk”, when the odds fluctuated so wildly that even if you’re good, your odds are still no better.
And before that, didn’t one high profile UK climber died on K2 and they couldn’t even find her body? It was thought she got blown off the summit when the unusual high wind (even for K2) hit the summit.
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Also worth remembering that there are usually a lot more climbers and people working on the mountain than the total number of summiters.
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If you’re talking about sherpas, they count as submitters too, just like the westerners they accompanied. Those support staff who never intend to summit (cooks, porters) their risk are on par with other mountains. Higher than your TV watching couch potato, for sure. But not all that much worse than population in those impoverished part of the world.
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Well its also an incredibly beautiful mountain. And it has a mystique and cachet about it. Aloof, remote, mysterious. Its the conaisseur's Everest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Yes there are harder mountains, but K2 is probably considered the hardest mountain where there are big commercial expeditions allowing "normal people" to climb.
I think your assumptions that the risk of death plays into the choice to do certain things is certainly not true for the vast majority. (Also as I pointed out statistically the risk of death even on K2 from something outside your control is actually much lower than one might think).
Ultra marathon has pretty much zero risk so it makes no sense in your definition why they would attract adrenaline junkies. It makes more sense (as with mountaineering) the majority are just drawn to the challenge.
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My definition of adrenaline junkies aren’t those who thrown themselves down the ski slope in a straight line tuck out of ignorant of the risk. Adrenaline junkies know the risk, they also know they could defy it.
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I'm not sure why you think adrenaline junkies have to know or even consider the risk. Skiing downhill really fast is pretty much textbook adrenaline junkie. You think the people going really fast are not getting a kick out of it?
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What about Isle of Man TT that has to be one of the ultimate Adrenalin Junky kicks, which has claimed many lives over the years, racing and non-racing circa 250 whilst K2 circa 100.
And people return year after year and take their chances on both, so who are we to criticise?
Was thinking about drones vs helicopters, and drones are electric, so not affected by fuel issues at altitude n'est pas ?
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FAQ
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