It always amazes me when people say that its going up the mountain that is the problem, its stopping a big lump of metal going down hill that is always a bigger problem.
Slow and steady in low gear and keep feet off brakes at all costs, pulling big heavy trailers filled with wet maize on slippery slopes is great training for driving on snowy roads
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rjs wrote:
Harry Flashman wrote:
Origen wrote:
Quote:
The whole SUV thing is unnecessary, in some ways. A powerful estate car with decent tyres would be fine, but they don't do estate cars with seven seats anymore (and the old ones with rear facing seats in the boot probably wouldn't treat the rear occupants that well in a crash).
But why don't they do 7 seater estate cars as they are very practical for lots of people? I had a 7 seater (not SUV) and always felt uncomfortable about the safety of the back seats, because of not being able to get out, and the thought that quite a minor rear-end shunt could make it hard to open the back door. But those seats were front-facing. I would have thought rear facing seats were in general safer than front facing - isn't that why babies must be in rear facing seats?
I suppose the "whole SUV thing" is down to fashion, and will change in time, as fashion does.
I suspect that seven seat estate cars do not exist because rear facing seats in the boot are not safe, and so you need the high roofline of an SUV or MPV body to get a front facing third row in. But when I am driving a load of people plus gear around, the rear seats are great. They aren't much cop for long trips (and aren't needed for them as on those, it is just the immediate family in the car), but they get used as short trip seats, a lot.
The Peugeut 504 Familiale had three rows of seats, all facing forwards, there was a similar Citroën CX model too.
That's right come to think of it - a friend at school's parents had a CX Familale! I loved that car. Looked like a spaceship.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ah Citroen, them of the brilliant two latter homophone names - DS - Dey-ess - goddess, ID - ih-dey - idea and many others. I'd realised the only place that CX was funny was in my brain, as you have to combine a french C ("Seh") with an english X - "ex" instead of "icks" to get the citroen Sex, but I eagerly waited for the DX D(eh)icks. It never happened.
Friend just bought a 2022 Peugeot 5008 “estate” with 7 seats to fit his 4 children in. So they still exist.
Tesla’s taller cars also have rear facing seats if optioned. I don’t know about luggage space.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This is good to hear, although the 5008 is an SUV, and I try not to give my money to Elon Musk if possible
I used spikes spiders on several 4*4s including a VW Touareg which was big and heavy!
Tyres were standard summer
Arriving in resort was ok but once onto white roads the chains were necessary annoying but the ease of putting them on made it much less of a pain
So managed in resort (Tignes)
Luckily the valley roads or motorways were never white enough as that would slow trip down significantly as the chains advisory is for max 40mph( I stick to 30 ish)
I bought a kit to modify the chains when I switched from the Touareg rather than pay full price for a new set as the Spikes Spiders are so good
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
Winter tyres simply aren't going to happen any time soon, no tyre has less than about 6mm tread, I can't afford the associated cost, certainly not for one xmas ski trip a year,
Having been in a similar situation recently, for our Disco decent all-seasons, with Snowflake/mountain symbols, were £200 each. Yes £800 is a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of running cars and ski holidays it just isn't. Particularly as a lot of the big tyre places will do pay in installments.
I toyed with keeping my summer tyres and rotating them, but sold them very easily on eBay for £300 to offset the purchase.
Ignore the chains etc in resort the tyres may well save your life on the climbs and tunnels before Chambery where it is often cold and icy.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ham wrote:
chocksaway wrote:
@Ham, The thing on socks was lifted from the advertising stuff on the Loi de Montagne poster, not my words.
Socks can be OK but wear quickly on changeable surfaces and can easily aquaplane.
For me 3pmsf, Awd and a pair of SuperU €39 chains, which will probably never get used - just like the last lot over 11 seasons.
I thought, that if anything is going to shed some light on whether they are allowed
Quote:
La Loi Montagne, officiellement mise en place depuis le mois de novembre 2021, est une réglementation française destinée à mieux encadrer et à renforcer la sécurité routière dans les régions montagneuses durant l’hiver. Cette loi impose notamment aux automobilistes qui circulent dans certaines zones géographiques de s’équiper de pneus hiver obligatoires ou de dispositifs antidérapants amovibles, comme les chaînes et chaussettes à neige. Cette obligation est en vigueur chaque année, par décret, du 1er novembre au 31 mars.
And there, it says snow socks are sufficient. As to the question of which snow socks are approved, I suspect M. LeFlic will not care too much but I would like to know.
I'm aware that they wouldn't wear well, but they are insurance basically.
It's curious that there seems to be so little real life experience of them, in a community that uses equipment de neige frequently
I've owned snow socks but never actually used them. Appreciate that is little help!
We've been driving a 4wd estate with winters for the last 10 years and having also driven it without winters I would just point out that winter tyres are FAR MORE significant than 4wd in keeping you moving - I wouldn't take much reassurance from your 4wd even with the clever electronics.
I would say though that if you aren't going to put winter tyres on a car of that size then don't mess about - get chains. Personally I'd get a second set of (cheaper and smaller wheels) and put higher profile winters on them. But then I wouldn't have bought a cheaper car to give me the budget if funds were tight.
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Quote:
they are insurance basically
And no more than that. We see a very many of them scattered by the roadside every time it snows
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I run two sets of wheels, been through a pair of conti winter contacts and now on some vredestein wintracs. I fit them in October and take them off after Easter. Because I save 6 months of wear on my summer tyres and the corrosion on my summer wheels I don't really consider it as much of an expense other than the initial cost of the wheels which was £300 for some alloys the correct size. I take two pairs of chains but I have never had to fit them even when driving down icy hills and that is on a rwd e class. 4wd wont help at all when you are trying to stop on a slope. The cost is pretty insignificant when considering the safety aspect of it in my opinion, just 1 accident is going to cost you more.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Winter tyres. You’ve been driving to the Alps for 33 years and you’ve grandchildren so you’re not as young as you were. You don’t want to be faffing with wrapping stuff round your wheels in a blizzard of wet snow if you can possibly avoid it, by the side of a road with passing traffic, in the dark, hands freezing etc.
This is your first GD 4x4, you’ve no idea how much harder it is to stop than a car is. Winter tyres are for stopping, not starting.
If you can’t afford to run your car then I’m afraid you’ve bought the wrong car, so sell it.
What if it’s snowing all the way from Calais to the Alps? Your socks aren’t going to get that far. Nor are chains.
Winter tyres. You owe it to your wife and grandchildren.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
This bears out my experience. I've done a lot of driving in the US on fwd rental cars with variable quality tyres and cable ladders.
Obviously 3pmsf tyres will be best but failing that you want something that works on ice and blacktop stretches ( though cables will ping apart if you up the speed too much). Socks only really seem to work on pure snow. Which you don't necessarily get once the first few vehicles have compacted it.
I've probably seen more 4x4 in the ditch than anything else in my time driving in snow.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Driving the vertiginously cliff edged, mountain road between Grenoble & Serre Chevalier many times in mid-winter is a nail-bitingly gnarly experience given the road is always severely frost damaged - and that's in a winter tyred 4x4. If your car isn't equipped for those conditions then you'll only get as far as La Grave.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
James the Last wrote:
Winter tyres. You’ve been driving to the Alps for 33 years and you’ve grandchildren so you’re not as young as you were. You don’t want to be faffing with wrapping stuff round your wheels in a blizzard of wet snow if you can possibly avoid it, by the side of a road with passing traffic, in the dark, hands freezing etc.
This is your first GD 4x4, you’ve no idea how much harder it is to stop than a car is. Winter tyres are for stopping, not starting.
If you can’t afford to run your car then I’m afraid you’ve bought the wrong car, so sell it.
What if it’s snowing all the way from Calais to the Alps? Your socks aren’t going to get that far. Nor are chains.
Winter tyres. You owe it to your wife and grandchildren.
Some good points. Add to that cold temps generally. Winter tyres aren't just for snow - the softer compounds used for them give better grip generally when the tarmac is colder yet dry, as in midwinter.
Flip side is that they wear more heavily and don't perform as well when road surfaces are warm. I still use them in April in the Alps as the last few years, we have had snow at that time of year.
The cost is a pain, and you have to store the spare tyres if you swap them out. Still worth it.
As others have said, they don't abrogated people from the responsibility of driving more carefully and with far greater anticipation in cold, bad conditions, but they are transformative for stopping distances.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mine have been almost cost neutral with the reduction in wear to summer tyres. Just this month after 54k miles/5 years I'm replacing the first ones required, 4 summer and 2 winter. Unheard of on a RWD car with over 400 bhp, maybe I'm just driving incredibly sensible as I get older
When I think of some of the conditions I used to drive in without any thought given to the tyres fitted I cringe a bit. If I'm going to have any hairy moments I want to be happy I've done everything I can to mitigate it.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Harry Flashman wrote:
Add to that cold temps generally. Winter tyres aren't just for snow - the softer compounds used for them give better grip generally when the tarmac is colder yet dry, as in midwinter.
Yes. But to be fair to OP for a moment, on a dry cold road you’d have to be very unlucky to need that additional grip. This is an ambling 4x4, not a Ferrari!
The difference in grip on ice/packed icy snow is the main reason. And once you’ve taken a car with winter tyres up an icy slope you’ll never mess about again!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
One way of looking at winter tyres is that they don't cost you any more, because when they're on, the summers aren't being used and worn, so last proportionately longer.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
With true all season tyres now being a thing I don't know why anyone in the UK intending to drive out to the Alps regularly doesn't fit them as standard. OK you might get marginally worse wear on really hot summer days but you also have the benefit of rain shedding and grip on greasy UK winter roads, frosty mornings and the odd snowfall chance.
The understandable issue for the OP is in chucking away a perfectly good set of summer tyres which still have lots of mileage in them, and spending £800+ on winter-biased all-seasons - it's a big cost to swallow. It's the same vexing question that comes up every year for those of us with relatively new vehicles where the manufacturers have fitted stupid summer tyres instead of all-seasons.
An alternative is to spend £800+ on a set of winter tyres - thus prolonging the life of the summers already fitted. In this case, you just spend your £800 sooner, rather than later. But you don't throw away a set of summer tyres that still have 15-20,000 miles of life in them.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 27-10-25 16:04; edited 4 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Dave of the Marmottes, indeed - I have them fitted on my little i10 even though that is unlikely to go to the Alps
So if unwilling to buy tyres on economic grounds the tradeoff for safety is buy proper chains and deal with the ballache of fitting them when necessary (which from the perspective of other road users is not when you get stuck or in the roadway)*. Don't buy comedy socks unless you know exactly how far you will need them for on a purely soft snow covered surface. Unless you want them AS WELL for ease of use e.g getting a few metres out of a snowy carpark onto cleared roads.
*plus the increased chance of having to spend a night out in the cold although that's not that significant as some other clown may have already blocked the road even if you've the best 4x4 with the best rubber on it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
plus the increased chance of having to spend a night out in the cold although that's not that significant as some other clown may have already blocked the road even if you've the best 4x4 with the best rubber on it.
As part of my "active journey and traffic management plan" I carry tow kit with decent shackles to "help" some poor soul out of their predicament. Selfishly, it has on a couple of occasion been used in this scenario
After all it is free
After all it is free
LaForet wrote:
The understandable issue - it's a big cost to swallow.
I’m not convinced. The old tyres will make £250 - £400 on eBay. The value to OP’s life of not having to stand in the wet snow fitting those idiotic things that won’t go round the wheels is significant, surely. And the value to his insurance excess I’d suggest far exceeds £800. And it’s probably only £600 as the tyres in the car are already part worn. And it’s part of the cost of changing cars.
Or buy some second-hand wheels for the winter tyres.
I’ve got all-seasons on my car - it came with them. I loved them so much I’ve put some new ones on. Every yard I drive through a muddy field (a couple of hundred yards annually) I am grateful for them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
This solved the debate for me.
http://youtube.com/v/mfuE00qdhLA
I now get winter tyres and 'hotel' my summers with the fitter and vice versa. A few companies do this including some kwik fit. The expense is clearly upfront but after that it is just the fitting and hotel cost. This is expensive, but not as expensive as a GBFO 4x4, tolls to alps etc. I console myself that winter tyres are also a good thing in the UK, but not completely convinced! Once you have winter tyres then snow socks are redundant. I have Polaire grip chains that are easy to put on but have never been used in anger and suspect never will be. Only used chains once, but when I did I really needed them, and a 4x4 with summer tyres would have been equally useless. It doesn't matter how many wheels you can drive with when you are trying to stop.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
James the Last wrote:
This is your first GD 4x4, you’ve no idea how much harder it is to stop than a car is. Winter tyres are for stopping, not starting.
Well, let me see, if I had no idea of the difference driving a heavy 4x4, would I have bothered starting this discussion? Why, no, I don't think I would.
@LaForet has it exactly right, my choice of car and the fact I'm still going skiing suggest that if I needed to, I could buy winter tyres if I had to. But, being retired and after your friend and mine, Liz Truss, has done her worst I do have to think at least twice before lashing out, where I might not have worried had I still been working. To be clear, I'm amused not offended by the "if you can't afford it you shouldn't have bought it" sentiment, Normal for [s]Norfolk[/s] Internet. The question remains, not would it be better to, but do I have to? Any 2WD car, I would expect to have to buy new chains for. But, this is 4x4, what would two sets of socks be like?
It's clear that socks weak spot is ice.
In practical terms the worst ice tends to be a slope out of a car park. The roads to the major resorts I use (Tignes le Lac this year FWIW, so not even 2000) either are being covered with snow in real time or are gritted, even that last bit to VT which is IME is worst of all the high resorts gets gritted regularly. Hard to be exact, but I can't remember a skating rink resort road, certainly not at christmas.
For the rest, appropriate speed and gap between you and the car in front does ameliorate most problems, especially descending. coming down engine braking has to help in 4WD mode (despite being auto, the Merc has this). And, if conditions are truly sh!te once you''re off the mountain, then simply stop at the next town. I don't have to get back for work
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
What's your objection to buying socks and chains - that way you're laughing all ways up. I suspect chains on the main drive axle will suffice (at risk of swapping ends in extremis) but e.g. Lidl do TUV rated chains at least once a year pretty cheaply.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
It's clear that socks weak spot is ice.
To expand:- they're not all the same design and construction. The "fluffy velour" type have the lowest limits in my experience. The publicity and account of their use doesn't really cover more difficult areas of usage, in my view. They are quite effective in longitudinal traction (which many advocate proffer) but much more limited for steering, especially on non driven front wheels. Front drive when using them allows the traction to be deployed in the direction you want to travel, and more effective for that than rear driven use.most demonstrated though is just getting something moving in reasonable snowfall. Effective, but in a narrowed case of use.
There's more aggressive type ... Michelin Easy Grip .... with more of a chain type design in softer materials, with metal node points allowing improvement in iced surface along with more multi directional abthan the velour type.
These would be my choice if I had to take something fitting your original question in regard to snow socks. There's need to be gentle in their application for both types in conserving their structure to make best use of them in dire grip situations.
You make an interesting point in regard to fitment of two sets. Anecdotally, if they are used on a front wheel driven car, with the handbrake on the rears, it can have no parking brake retardation from the uncovered rears, to comical effect if not realised.
It would seem logical, as you have noted in consideration, to use two sets and give your vehicle control systems that traction ability to modulate in its full ability when it's struggling.
Is there indication in the manual of which end traction devices should be fitted (Mercedes generally favour rear as their driven strategy is primarily there) but with obvious compromise in steering ability if they are left without enhancement.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
What's your objection to buying socks and chains - that way you're laughing all ways up. I suspect chains on the main drive axle will suffice (at risk of swapping ends in extremis) but e.g. Lidl do TUV rated chains at least once a year pretty cheaply.
You mean, just like I did on my last car? (RWD, so made some kind of sense). Never did use the socks.
I really need to find out what limitations there are, there may well be sufficient clearance to take any chains, then yes, that would likely be the cheaper answer. Still want to know about the socks.....
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I doubt anyone will be able to tell you definitively about socks because they aren't you, driving your vehicle in all the circumstances you may encounter. Their pros and cons seem relatively well documented.
Maybe the lack of real positive reviews from people who've driven in snow and ice and to ski resorts for snowsocks tells you something. Chuck em in your luggage as a hail mary for a rental car maybe - have them as your only get out of jail card?- sounds like people generally make different decisions.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
[quote="ski3"]
Quote:
Is there indication in the manual of which end traction devices should be fitted (Mercedes generally favour rear as their driven strategy is primarily there) but with obvious compromise in steering ability if they are left without enhancement.
Now, why didn't I think to RTFM earlier?
No restrictions for chains on the rear - fitting two only, put them on rear, turn the ride height up. <facepalm>
So, not on front axle as I had assumed (which has restrictions=£400 chains)
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Ham, if you can afford All Seasons the general opinion seems to be get them
Also agree with suggestion about get both socks and chains. Many places will refund you on chains if unused
As for socks, I agree with @Dave of the Marmottes, to many variables. They would probably be fine for a short section of snow to apartment door. You may rip them to shreds on a longer drive.
The biggest impact you can have for safety on whole trip is tyres. Yes it costs upfront but balances out overall
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I doubt anyone will be able to tell you definitively about socks because they aren't you, driving your vehicle in all the circumstances you may encounter. Their pros and cons seem relatively well documented.
Maybe the lack of real positive reviews from people who've driven in snow and ice and to ski resorts for snowsocks tells you something.
It tells me nobody has experimented, really. There's a world of difference between the main resort road and any turning off it, my use case is quite clear and, even having the most respect for mountains (which I do) I am not fully convinced that 4 socks wouldn't be enough, but that's academic now.
Quote:
Chuck em in your luggage as a hail mary for a rental car maybe - have them as your only get out of jail card?- sounds like people generally make different decisions.
There's a lot of people who make really poor decisions and end up uʍop ǝpᴉsdn in a ditch, the sight of those people will influence the views of those who see 'em. Fact is, if people get down calmly and successfully on socks, they won't come to anyone's attention. I was hoping that some here might have fallen into that category.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Boris wrote:
@Ham, if you can afford All Seasons the general opinion seems to be get them
Technology seems to have moved on over recent years, so the next time I change tyres, it might well be to 3PMSF. Interestingly, tyre wear seems much more even on 4WD making it a no brainer to change all together, I wouldn't want to mix front and rear axle types.
Quote:
Also agree with suggestion about get both socks and chains. Many places will refund you on chains if unused
As for socks, I agree with @Dave of the Marmottes, to many variables. They would probably be fine for a short section of snow to apartment door. You may rip them to shreds on a longer drive.
The biggest impact you can have for safety on whole trip is tyres. Yes it costs upfront but balances out overall
I never monkey with the small patch of rubber that keeps you in touch with the road, or fit anything less than 1st line tyres. On the caravan I have fitted Tyron bands and check pressure and torque before each trip, because the only thing worse than a blowout on a car (which mostly would be reasonably uneventful these days, but needn't be) is a blowout on 1,800kg of dead weight, attached to the back of your car.
I’m with you on beefy car for towing, we had a few scary moments with our caravan before moving to heavier tow car.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Just a comment on tyre brands. I've always gone for the cheapest properly-rated winter tyres and never had any problems with them. There are good comparison websites where they show relative grip, wear life, road noise etc. and I tend to use those rather than going with the big brands which are often two or three times the price. And I'll often have a different pair on the front from the back, just down to the fronts generally wearing more quickly, but never different tyres on the same axle. If I have a pair with obviously more tread they will always go on the front axle, on awd cars which mostly bias drive to the front but in any case it's steering and braking that are more important so would probably do so on a rear drive car as well. (Not had one for years though).
Definitely not, there being some very fundamental differences across the manufacturers and models within those brands.
Very loosely, Mercedes and BMW have favoured rear drive bias for many aspect in their chassis, hence my enquiry about what the maker says in direction of traction devices.
BUT and it's a very big but, the smaller cars in many ranges (golf size & derivatives) use the opposite, with essentially a front drive arrangement, with the rears only "clutched" into use when slip is detected under torque load. This usually through the "Haldex" equipped rear differential by using hydraulic pressure to actuate. Often seen as 4Motion in VW nomenclature. This group can have direction to use chains etc on rear, that only come into use when front slips ! also another reason to be careful with the chain application, these type decouple the rear drive under braking, and so offer retardation through disc only, there's no 4wd transmission braking affect as such.
The marketing of all these 4 drive systems promise everything, significant difference are in place as to capability though.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Ham, "so the next time I change tyres, it might well be to 3PMSF"
Not sure what you mean? full winters? all seasons?
3pmsf just means capable enough in snow and ice.
After all it is free
After all it is free
AFAIK (through current investigation and searches), 3PMSF is the certification with a picture of a little mountain on which means it complies with the Loi de Montagne. Even if it isn't that's what I mean, and what I will be putting on when the time comes to change - which doesn't sound like now.
Amusingly (?) there seem to be a very limited number of chains for wheels this size, mostly the single side fitting ones. Having had to deal with rear wheel chain fitting in the past, maybe that's not a bad idea ......
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@Ham How about getting a set of snow/cold/wet-biased all-season tyres for the winter, and then alternating them with the summers?
That way, you get the full mileage out of the summers, and extend the lifetime of both. When the summers need replacing, you run the all-seasons winter and summer until they reach their end of life. Overall, you’ve not spent more than you would if you just ran with the existing tyres until they’re finished, then replaced them with all-seasons.
This also has the merit of dealing with the problematic spring and autumn periods in the UK. Where temperatures often oscillate over a wide range and it’s hard to get the timing right for swapping them around. Of course, you’d need to be able to store your out-of-season tyres somewhere. I appreciate that it’s a lot easier to keep them undeformed if they’re inflated on their own wheels, but a separate set of wheels wouldn’t be logical in this scenario. You’d just have to move then ‘round a bit from time to time.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
LaForet wrote:
@Ham How about getting a set of snow/cold/wet-biased all-season tyres for the winter, and then alternating them with the summers?
A couple of reasons. I'm in London, so storage is the main hurdle, I've nowhere to put them, the cost/hassle of storing and changing would not be insignificant. Then also, snow tyres are of no use to me here, as I just wouldn't use the car in those conditions (current tyres are reasonable wet performers), so my resolve to change to all season might well dissipate before it happens....
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