 Poster: A snowHead
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Or when i managed to get all the way home in perfect safety, got overconfident and gently slid into to the log store, demolishing it and spilling logs all over my bonnet and the driveway. That was solid work, that. Really clever.
Also on snow tyres.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I rolled a grader last year and did 40k of damage to a pistenbulky 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For several winters I lived up a longish straight road in les Houches.
One day off I was trickling down the hill in the Defender 110 (on BFGs as well!) chatting with OH when I went quiet whilst the Defender did a full 360. Interesting!
About ten days later I was chatting with a neighbour from Lyon who might have been a Land Rover dealer (a tidy 90 for fun, a Disco for her and a Range Rover for him) when I said that I’d had the pirouette. He laughed and said that he had done just the same!
Incidentally, my Defender has “traction control” which means that there’s a brain applying the brakes as required to prevent wheelspin. It might be a wonderful idea but the rear pads needed changing at 35,000 miles, the fronts lasted for 60,000 miles. The difference might have been due to my “doing a Roger Albert Clark” up the snow-covered hill at the end of each working day.
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All this occasions I've driven to the Alps I could've been on slick tyres yet to be lucky enough to go during major dumps so I wouldn't over think it too much. This is during February HT too when it's supposed to be cold but always appears to be around 10 degrees.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Harry Flashman wrote: |
One of the things I love most about these threads is that everyone posting is apparently some cold weather driving god, and everyone else is a fool.
Come on people. Let's have some truth here about our own screw-ups, eh?
Like the time I attempted to emulate my old Defender's ability to park on giant piles of ploughed snow in otherwise full car parks, in a shiny Range Rover. It went badly, I had to be towed out, and everyone laughed at me. Luckily, I caused no blockage and everyone was very good-natured, treating me like a tourist fool rather than a menace.
Car had snow tyres on. Didn't help. |
Well my post earlier about driving to the Alps without winter tyres and in a 4WD car that could only have chains on the rear wasn't my finest hour!! But better than that was trying said 4WD car (Integrale) out in the UK snow before then. I found a nice long, steep hill covered in snow and set off up it, all was going great until about 50yds from the top when it just lost all traction and stopped, I put the brakes on but unfortunately there was so little grip from the half worn summer tyres that I slid all the way back down to the bottom!!
Another classic was a snowy drive home over the Kebs from Hebden Bridge to Burnley. I was in my MG engined HLE Metro which had rally type M&S tyres on the front, I was being held up by a slower car who was struggling in the fairly deep snow so I (ahem) powered past him on a straight uphill section. Unfortunately half a mile up the road at the next bend the rear tyres decided they didn't have anywhere near as much grip as the fronts and decided to try and catch them up! That ended up with a smashed up front end and a trip to the scrappie the next day for a couple of new headlights!!
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Pandas are machines!
That reminds me of going to the Lecht in 2002 ish and there was a nearly new Subaru P1 that looked as good as abandoned with where it was parked. At the end of the day it was being pulled out by the tractor and heard the guy saying 'I thought it'd be ok with the four wheel drive'. Can imagine it'll have been on summer tyres and sat spinning all 4!
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| James77 wrote: |
| All this occasions I've driven to the Alps I could've been on slick tyres yet to be lucky enough to go during major dumps so I wouldn't over think it too much. This is during February HT too when it's supposed to be cold but always appears to be around 10 degrees. |
Come on!
Every time I've returned home to my house it hasn't burned down so I wouldn't worry about insuring it against fire.
Really?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pertinent to the original question at thread start is, that in all likelihood tge RR doesn't have sufficient tyre traction to move. The relevant part of this, that all three elements (4WD + Electronic, algorithm determined + driver) will all come to roughly the same point ... in determining the grip is not up to transcending the physics at that point.
There's method -could be labelled a "Hack" nowadays, in that gentle application of brake pedal while gently applying the throttle can move them. A true 4WD system with open differential will ultimately let the torque escape via only two wheels (even if they deploy centre differential lock) making it two wheel drive at best.
Gently applying the brakes will effectively "ask" for equal torque at ALL wheels, which will then drive to move more effectively.
Consideration on some vehicles is that they don't want to throttle and brake simultaneously (naturally a safety feature) which can be hacked by keeping constant light pressure on brake system while double tapping the throttle to apply, it can take that as definitely wanting throttle and allow driver to proceed.
Ultimately though, it hasn't the correct tyres fitted when viewing what it's doing in that clip.
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| jedster wrote: |
| James77 wrote: |
| All this occasions I've driven to the Alps I could've been on slick tyres yet to be lucky enough to go during major dumps so I wouldn't over think it too much. This is during February HT too when it's supposed to be cold but always appears to be around 10 degrees. |
Come on!
Every time I've returned home to my house it hasn't burned down so I wouldn't worry about insuring it against fire.
Really? |
And I doubt it will ever burn down.
My point is, I really don't worry about it at all. Yes, it could get slippery on occasion but by in large it's more likely to be fine.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jedster wrote: |
| James77 wrote: |
| All this occasions I've driven to the Alps I could've been on slick tyres yet to be lucky enough to go during major dumps so I wouldn't over think it too much. This is during February HT too when it's supposed to be cold but always appears to be around 10 degrees. |
Come on!
Every time I've returned home to my house it hasn't burned down so I wouldn't worry about insuring it against fire.
Really? |
The point about insurance is to pay a small amount of money to insure you against a cost you can't afford. If you can afford the loss, you are better off self insulting every time. What you can afford depends on your individual circumstances. For example I never insure my mobile phone, as I can handle a £1000 hit. I never used to, but now I insure my no claims bonus, as the impact of its loss would be something in the region of 4-5k. My estimation with the car is that with sensible driving, there is up to £500 excess I'd be out of pocket. I insure my house because there is no way I could afford it if it were damaged/destroyed. I'm particular to make certain I'm fully insured, and I always hope and expect it will be total "waste" of money.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Winter tyres simply aren't going to happen any time soon, no tyre has less than about 6mm tread, I can't afford the associated cost,
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For example I never insure my mobile phone, as I can handle a £1000 hit
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| Ham wrote: |
| The point about insurance is to pay a small amount of money to insure you against a cost you can't afford. If you can afford the loss, you are better off self insulting every time. What you can afford depends on your individual circumstances. For example I never insure my mobile phone, as I can handle a £1000 hit. I never used to, but now I insure my no claims bonus, as the impact of its loss would be something in the region of 4-5k. My estimation with the car is that with sensible driving, there is up to £500 excess I'd be out of pocket. I insure my house because there is no way I could afford it if it were damaged/destroyed. I'm particular to make certain I'm fully insured, and I always hope and expect it will be total "waste" of money. |
Insurance is inherently a bad bet. That's how insurance companies get to build swanky office blocks, it's because they take in more in premiums than they pay out in claims (between 45% and 90%) . I never take out insurance apart from 2 situations :
1) It's a legal requirement
2) I can't afford the potential 'table stakes' e.g. Liability insurance
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You know it makes sense.
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| Boris wrote: |
| Quote: |
Winter tyres simply aren't going to happen any time soon, no tyre has less than about 6mm tread, I can't afford the associated cost,
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For example I never insure my mobile phone, as I can handle a £1000 hit
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One is crystallised, the other is a potential (and I think, low), risk. I could get the winter tyres if I had to, this thread is all about, do I have to?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eblunt wrote: |
| Ham wrote: |
| The point about insurance is to pay a small amount of money to insure you against a cost you can't afford. If you can afford the loss, you are better off self insulting every time. What you can afford depends on your individual circumstances. For example I never insure my mobile phone, as I can handle a £1000 hit. I never used to, but now I insure my no claims bonus, as the impact of its loss would be something in the region of 4-5k. My estimation with the car is that with sensible driving, there is up to £500 excess I'd be out of pocket. I insure my house because there is no way I could afford it if it were damaged/destroyed. I'm particular to make certain I'm fully insured, and I always hope and expect it will be total "waste" of money. |
Insurance is inherently a bad bet. That's how insurance companies get to build swanky office blocks, it's because they take in more in premiums than they pay out in claims (between 45% and 90%) . I never take out insurance apart from 2 situations :
1) It's a legal requirement
2) I can't afford the potential 'table stakes' e.g. Liability insurance |
I agree. We need to insure for things we could never afford, my third party/ product and employers insurance is essential, others I'm careful about, recently one of my tenants of a small work shop did some dodgy wiring and burnt it down, its costing me roughly £4000 to rebuild it including disposing of the asbestos roof properly, to insure the building each year would have been around £850 a year , I've rented it out for 20 years so we'll in pocket not bothering, take off the excess plus increased insurance premium next year it makes it even more sense not to insure it. However another shed is much bigger more valuable and is insured as rebuild/ disposal would be over £100,000.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Do you have to? No
Is it an absolute no brainer to get them? Yes
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
there's often judgement on the forum about certain vehicle type, that from a socio-economic sneering outlook.
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Ah yes, I endured quite a lot of sneering when I had a Fiat Multipla 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Ham wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
| James77 wrote: |
| All this occasions I've driven to the Alps I could've been on slick tyres yet to be lucky enough to go during major dumps so I wouldn't over think it too much. This is during February HT too when it's supposed to be cold but always appears to be around 10 degrees. |
Come on!
Every time I've returned home to my house it hasn't burned down so I wouldn't worry about insuring it against fire.
Really? |
The point about insurance is to pay a small amount of money to insure you against a cost you can't afford. If you can afford the loss, you are better off self insulting every time. What you can afford depends on your individual circumstances. For example I never insure my mobile phone, as I can handle a £1000 hit. I never used to, but now I insure my no claims bonus, as the impact of its loss would be something in the region of 4-5k. My estimation with the car is that with sensible driving, there is up to £500 excess I'd be out of pocket. I insure my house because there is no way I could afford it if it were damaged/destroyed. I'm particular to make certain I'm fully insured, and I always hope and expect it will be total "waste" of money. |
Yes - I'm the same - I insure losses that I can't afford to risk (like a house burning down). I don't insure small stuff.
Putting proper winter tyres on (or at least using proper chains which I appreciate you are now proposing to do) is in my view insuring against the catastrophic risk (not mainly financial) of having a bad accident. It's like using avalanche safety gear - you are very unlikely to need it and will do your best through your route choice etc to make carrying it unnecessary but that doesn't mean you should not carry it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just for an alternative pov, winter tyres in nz aren’t easily available - the vast majority of people use regular summer tyres and chains. There’s challenging winter conditions and most of the time using chains works out fine.
I use winters, it’s definitely better, but it’s not a necessity.
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@hang11, No they’re not a necessity, but they make sense and they’re not just for snow (which seems to be a common misconception in wider public)
It’s like taking an umbrella with you, not a necessity but you’ll be glad you have it when needed.
Everyone is free to do their own thing, within legal limits, but running all seasons as a minimum seems to be common sense, even in the mild south of the UK
But that’s just my view and SH will never agree on a tyre thread
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From my observation in a small French resorts most French visitors come by car, many come from areas where winter tyres are not the norm, they mostly have ordinary tyres but (perhaps like New Zealanders) they are mostly much readier to get the chains out than some Brits, or at any rate some SHs, who speak as though doing so was an absolute last resort and much to be dreaded. In snowy times many of the cars in Les Saisies - perhaps the majority - had chains on. It's really not a huge deal and for someone who has new summer tyres on their vehicle, doing a once a year trip to Alps, having chains and being ready to use them at the first sign of loss of traction (having practiced doing so - it's not rocket science and if you do it fast your fingers won't drop off) makes perfectly good sense. The way some people on SHs wag their fingers you'd think they were committing crimes against humanity.
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| Origen wrote: |
| From my observation in a small French resorts most French visitors come by car, many come from areas where winter tyres are not the norm, they mostly have ordinary tyres but (perhaps like New Zealanders) they are mostly much readier to get the chains out than some Brits, or at any rate some SHs, who speak as though doing so was an absolute last resort and much to be dreaded. In snowy times many of the cars in Les Saisies - perhaps the majority - had chains on. It's really not a huge deal and for someone who has new summer tyres on their vehicle, doing a once a year trip to Alps, having chains and being ready to use them at the first sign of loss of traction (having practiced doing so - it's not rocket science and if you do it fast your fingers won't drop off) makes perfectly good sense. The way some people on SHs wag their fingers you'd think they were committing crimes against humanity. |
It can still be chaos down in Flumet with them scattered all over the road putting the chains on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thermal rubber coated work gloves are a good idea for fitting chains. And use a floor mat from the car to kneel on. Under 2 minutes a wheel with a bit of practice.
Just untangle them, lay them out in front of the wheel, and go from there.
Also helps to have a bit of wood to drive the wheel up on to - can get them nice and tight if most of the tyre is off the ground.
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| Quote: |
It can still be chaos down in Flumet with them scattered all over the road putting the chains on.
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oh for sure - there are always folk who leave it too late.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Winter tyres are vastly superior to summers with chains in the boot - because they're already on.
How tempting it must be to continue without chains given the resort can't be more than another couple of miles...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It’s a tricky one this “too late” one. Every resort I’ve visited you can get to within a few miles of resort on cleared roads.
Now fine if the police are stopping cars and insisting on chains, then you know there is snow on roads, but otherwise I think most people would assume it’s ok to carry on? You’re not going to drive for miles on chains on tarmac!
Then of course you end up with people putting chains on in daft places when it turns snowy
Of course with winter tyres you may not need to
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| Origen wrote: |
| From my observation in a small French resorts most French visitors come by car, many come from areas where winter tyres are not the norm, they mostly have ordinary tyres but (perhaps like New Zealanders) they are mostly much readier to get the chains out than some Brits, or at any rate some SHs, who speak as though doing so was an absolute last resort and much to be dreaded. In snowy times many of the cars in Les Saisies - perhaps the majority - had chains on. It's really not a huge deal and for someone who has new summer tyres on their vehicle, doing a once a year trip to Alps, having chains and being ready to use them at the first sign of loss of traction (having practiced doing so - it's not rocket science and if you do it fast your fingers won't drop off) makes perfectly good sense. The way some people on SHs wag their fingers you'd think they were committing crimes against humanity. |
Definitely agree with this and by looking around generally parked cars, there's nothing like a majority adherence to using winter spec tyres in most ski stations I've visited.
I'll drive absolutely anything .... and adapt to the vehicle, conditions, tyres etc .... but the pedantic that do come and comment on forum project an extremely judgmental position should it be discussed in practical experience outside their dictat.
One notable Belgian resident, once drove a bus, offering such view often backed by the phrase "i wouldn't like to meet you coming the other way" don't think I've met them yet, so all good.
No I'm not in denial about the effective merit of appropriate tyres, with "all season" being a very valid choice, especially when the need to change tyres comes up in vehicle service life. They offer a very well rounded set of attributes to fulfill (often a UK majority question on here) this forum's interest group and activities.
Yes, I've always carried chains and use them with ease, moreso feel they are the go to when really needed.
One of the key drivers of "missing" winter grip in contemporary vehicles is having tyres included in design concept that have speed and handling characteristics reaching far, far out of any realistic and sensible speed/use profile that is the norm for many. The compromise is what we see here in these discussions, a diametrically opposed set of attributes that so compromise the low temp, low grip characteristics that are useful in everyday life for our general location and weather potential.
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You know it makes sense.
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| hang11 wrote: |
Also helps to have a bit of wood to drive the wheel up on to - can get them nice and tight if most of the tyre is off the ground. |
That's an idea worth remembering, thanks, although I think that self tensioning avoids most of the issues, when you are fitting in deep slush or snow that could be handy. My go to for all sorts of stuff are the spacer blocks from pallets, one sliced in half might work well.
IME, Most of the time fitting chains is spent.....
When there isn't sufficient space to get your hand in, wrangling the back chain hoop over
Even when there is space, trying to ensure the rear hoop is as central as possible. With tyres almost 12" wide, I can see that being fun even with decent access space.
Ascending to a major resort at peak times, I've never had any issues with deciding whether or not to chain. Teh weather is your first indication, and the police are always out. Being stupid can happen, getting caught out, less so.
Descending you are much more on your own. But, jJudging the roads from the top and not being afraid to chain up is a simple thing to do and, accepting that there can be inversion, descending will normally not get worse, but keep a close eye on the temperature just to be sure. Again, from a main resort in peak season, You Are Not Alone. People get close to my bumper? Sorry, I slow down even more - I will let everyone overtake at the first opportunity, but that's the way it is.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I do think that people are slightly missing a key point. If you have two sets of tyres and swap them then they will wear out a lot slower since you're only using them for a part of the year and, critically, you're using them in the environment for which they were designed.
So, keeping the maths simple and splitting it half half you're looking at replacing your tyres twice as often if you use them year round ... so the cost ends up pretty much the same as having two sets which last twice as long.
And, then, you have summer tyres which prioritises dry grip and winters that work well in snow, rain and cold temperatures. What does the compromise get you other than compromised performance and no net cost saving ... other than a lack of changeover and storage requirement ?
I admit I'm a new convert to this idea and only did it at first because it is a requirement here in Germany. However, it's a revelation and I would now always have two sets.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Blackblade wrote: |
... other than a lack of changeover and storage requirement ?....
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If it weren't for that it would absolutely be a no brainer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Blackblade, Trouble is, tyres perish. I've had to change low mileage ones on motorbike and car (I don't do many miles on either), so unless you do a reasonable mileage you may not wear them out if you swap them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@MorningGory, decent tyres stored properly (!!!!) will last 10 years.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Ham, ah, so it's having them fitted and in the elements that kills them?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Basically, AFAIK sunlight is the worst enemy, why I have wheel covers on my caravan. Stored cool and dry, even after 10 years you are supposed to change them, which is why they have manufactured year on the markings.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Even if stored optimally, the complex compounds in a quality tyre will degrade over time. Typically - especially on winter tyres - the tread will start to become hard and lose its elasticity. After about 5 years the tyre will become increasingly sensitive to light, humidity, temperature and air. Ideally store the tyre inflated (although this should be reduced) on a wheel, on the wall or flat, with no pressure points. Stacking is also not ideal as this deforms the tyre walls on the lower tyres in the stack.
However, for most people, the tread depth will usually reduce to 4mm before the environmental factors kick in (as long as you store them optimally). After 4mm the snow-on-snow capability and to an extent the anti-aquaplaning water dispersal capability goes downhill rapidly. WInter tyres are usually recommended for disposal once they get to 4mm.
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Also, with zero scientific backing simply from my impression gained over the years, the longevity of the compound is a big difference between First line and second line tyre brands, with second line (which are often budget tyres made by big brands) starting to crack sooner.
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| Ham wrote: |
| Blackblade wrote: |
... other than a lack of changeover and storage requirement ?....
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If it weren't for that it would absolutely be a no brainer. |
Fair point. Also, as others have mentioned, if you don't do sufficient mileage to wear them out before they deteriorate with age to the point of needing replacement then my argument also fails.
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FAQ
