Ski Europe without biometrics!?

A snowHead

@Dave of the Marmottes, Not forgetting the video capability on self service tills in the supermarkets…

A snowHead

I understand the desire to limit your digital footprint as much as possible, but this doesn't seem the best hill to die on (so to speak) in pursuit of that aim. I assume that you're not on Facebook, LinkedIn or X or any other social media platform? Because if you are on any of these, and are involved in any sort of activity to want to keep information control over, then you should entirely delete your account. I'd say that would be a much more productive strategy to retaining digital security than refusing EU biometric recording.

If you have deleted or don't have any online accounts of any sort (social media, banking, Amazon, vehicle etc. etc.) then yes, I can see registering EU Schengen biometrics is a dilemma. All I'd then observe is at least it's likely to be far more controlled than any commercial digital database. As an example of the latter, Renault have recently written to their customers saying a supplier to them has revealed a raft of information about their customers. But if you still are concerned enough to reject it, then you're probably writing off travel to the majority of countries you might want to visit as a skier or tourist.

I would say that trying to enter a Schengen country via a non-Schengen satellite is going to pose the question of what you would do if - for whatever reason - you were required to provide biometrics? Are you going to turn 'round and go home?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I adore overseas holidays, love skiing … so this sucker will happily handover this information to evil big brother.

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Each to their own and everyones decision is personal but of all the data about myself that I could give up to a country one of the ones I'd be least concerned about is my fingerprints.
The standard photograph that has always been required is with modern facial recognition software probably far more potentially intrusive.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Dave of the Marmottes, and the airport, railway station, traffic lights, supermarket etc. etc.

The thing is if you don't let anyone have your fingerprints then you can't use your fingerprint to prove that you are you, so them being unique is pointless.

Of course if you've been doing things you shouldn't have and are worried that you've left a mark, then it might be a different question.

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@restless native: No, I don't use biometrics to sign into my phone. (I'd have thought that would be fairly obvious given the nature of my post.)
@underanewname: I own a UK passport. It does not have my biometrics on it.
@laforet: I have a FB account and that's about it. I mostly use it nowadays for warning others of the perils of the surveillance/totalitarian state that we (in the UK) are slipping into. I balance the loss of my privacy through having the account against the importance of fighting for freedom and freedom of speech whilst I still can. I don't intend to enter a Shengen country via a non-Shengen country. I never said that. I'm looking to find Non-Shengen countries with ski resorts. That is all.
@195062 and @abc: Sad you feel that way, but we still have a choice RE biometric ID. I choose (at least for now anyway) to boycott Shengen countries and instead spend my tourist £££'s in countries that have a greater respect for privacy. You're all welcome to make your own decisions, but that's my decision. Only a few years ago, a lot of people I know took an experimental vaccine just so they could travel to certain countries. I went skiing in Bulgaria that year instead. Many of them regretted their decision. I didn't.
@japes1275: I've no intention on illegally crossing borders. Would rather just find decent resorts in countries that don't insist on biometrics. These new rules might not last either. Inevitable data hacks, loss in tourist revenue, changes in the political landscape and/or other scenarios might prompt them to reverse this decision.
@RobinS: Thanks. Yeah, Montenegro is somewhere I've been looking into already. Have heard it's very beautiful. Will have a look into Bosnia too...
@albob: Yes, Turkey might be a good shout. Could tie it in with some dental work too..!
@stanton: I'm from the UK. My passport doesn't include biometrics.
@Shakira: Yep, so I gather. Have never spoken with anyone who's actually been there themself though
@motyl: No, I'm from the uk. My passport does not have biometrics. If I have to have my fingerprints scanned upon entry to a country, then yes the border officials would have access to my biometrics. I'd be highly surprised if any of these changes speed things up at airports. They'll just hire less staff and things will take just as long. A future where I'm coerced into having any kind of technology inserted under my skin isn't a future you will ever sell me on.
@johnE: I think you just proved my point RE China. Why would be wanting to take lead from a totalitarian communist state? In China, facial recognition cameras now catch people for jaywalking and funds are automatically taken out of their bank accounts to pay the fines. Thousands of regular, honest, working Chinese people are now homeless, because their social credit rating has dipped beyond a certain point whereby they're now unable to use their bank accounts, board public transport etc. It's a bleak example of where we might be headed. I wouldn't cite China as a shimmering example of how this kind of technology might be used!
@1nf: Thanks. Yes, definitely starting to look into Georgia now. Have you actually been yourself yet?
@munich_irish: I have no intention of staying home. I'll be skiing somewhere outside of the Shengen area this winter (hence the reason for this post.)

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

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After all it is free

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Some serious tin foil hattery going on here Very Happy

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@Powder2dapeople, how did you hide your face when standing in front of the camera when entering Bulgaria to stop it scanning your face? Since uk passports have contained biometric data for at least 20 years how did you get back into the uk?

Biometric data is even required to vote in uk elections, open a bank account or get a job.

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@johnE, I'm pretty sure I've never used biometric data to vote! Nor get a job.

You know it makes sense.

@Powder2dapeople, please can you outline the nature of the threat posed by biometric passports so that I can investigate?

I'm a bit of a sheep and am generally happy enough to be herded around with my travel and purchasing habits in plain sight. What 'they' will do with the, no doubt, fascinating and important information gathered from my rather mundane existence, I don't know.... Maybe there will be a Eureka moment as my organs are being harvested or I'm being shipped off to the slave colonies of Saturn. Eh oh!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

"The UK has been issuing ‘biometric’ passports (also known as ‘ePassports’) since 2006. These passports include a microchip which stores a digitised image of the holder’s passport photograph as well as the biographical details printed on the passport.

The EU has set minimum standards for passports which include the use of facial and fingerprint biometrics. The UK is not covered by these regulations and fingerprint biometrics are not included in UK passports.

The International Civil Aviation Organisation recommendations for biometric standards include a digitised photograph embedded on a chip in the passport."
https://unlock.org.uk/advice/information-contained-on-uk-passports/#:~:text=The%20UK%20has%20been%20issuing,a%20chip%20in%20the%20passport.

What information does the chip contain?
The UK’s biometric passports contain a microchip with a ‘facial biometric’. This is a digitised image of the holders photograph. Various features on the face, for example the distance between eyes, nose, mouth and ears, are digitally coded from the photograph and the information stored on the electronic chip.

The chip also stores electronically, the biographical information which is printed in the passport. It does not contain any information which is not also on the face of the passport. The information printed on the passport can be checked against the information on the chip, which is intended to be harder to forge. The information on the chip is encrypted so it can only be read by special biometric passport readers (eReaders).

A snowHead

@Powder2dapeople, when you say “biometric” are you implying fingerprints specifically?

Because the term “biometric” can also includes facial features, ratine scan etc. So as you walk through any public space, you’re quite likely been photo/video recorded.

Other unique personal identifiable information that not yet been widely used are voice prints. So don’t say a word when someone has a phone out. They might be recording your voiceprint.

A snowHead

@Powder2dapeople, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that all the people you're informing on Facebook have either muted you or are already riding the same bus as you.

On a practical note, are the required scans are going to apply not only in Shengen but also on the return to the UK? If so then you're skiing in Scotland.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Can't see how this is going to work. To avoid biometrics means no flying, which means ferry/tunnel, which means going through Schengen, which means EES...

It also means, for example, never visiting anyone who has a ring (other brands are available) doorbell.

Possibly regular plastic surgery would be the best option.

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So the OP starts a thread about not sharing biometrics and then shows they don't understand what constitutes biometrics.

Anyway what's this vaccine that makes you able to ski and where can I get it? Laughing

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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If you’re on Facebook then you are pretty stuffed as far as digital security goes. If you truly want to limit your footprint then come off it and totally delete your account. I’ve done work for the security services and police and I can tell you that being on Facebook means you have virtually no privacy. You’ve pretty much given up your liberty 95%. Not only to state actors, but also organised crime, who may be a far more serious threat, depending on what sort of job you have.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

And not just FaceBook.

When it came to changing my van from UK to French registration to tie in with our French Residency status, and the fact that we were staying longer in France than the UK, so subsequent insurance issues and the threat of the van being impounded, I had to go through a lot of hassle with French customs.

Finally, I had an appointment with the customs officer from our Prefecture and where his tone via email was most officious. Face to face he was great, and in his office, he commented that he could see that I'd been in France for quite a while, their concern being that I could just come in and sell the van at a huge profit, and when I asked him how he knew, he turned his monitor around and he showed me my Strava account and all my activities over the past year.

So presume French Customs are like UK in that they don't need search warrants etc

Anyway I have no problems either way, though will be interesting to see how it works at Eurotunnel when we go back at the end of November with our Carte Sejour's as theoretically we should not have to use the new systems ??

After all it is free

Personally, once someone has a picture of my face stored alongside my identity details I couldn't give two hoots if they had my fingerprints as when I eventually do get fed up of the wife, I will take precautions and wear my Hestra army leather heli ski mittens combined with my balaclava so they can't see my face or get any prints. It's great to get use out of ski gear all through the year. I might invest in the 3 finger gloves to add some dexterity and make any criminal tasks a little easier. Might chuck a snowheads buff on though whilst committing illegal acts just so any police investigations would provide some intrigue on here...

If you’ve been through and support using your passport in the last 5 years then you’ve already given your facial features as biometrics so while I understand your concerns I’d probably accept that the horse is well and truly dog food by now.

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If you’ve been through and support using your passport in the last 5 years then you’ve already given your facial features as biometrics so while I understand your concerns I’d probably accept that the horse is well and truly dog food by now.

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[quote="Powder2dapeople"]Any Brits out there reluctant to give up their biometric data in order to go skiing??!!

@Powder2dapeople

I have decided to give skiing a miss this coming winter. I do not have any social media accounts nor wish to give my fingerprints and other data to a database that will probably be farmed out to a third party which inevitably will get hacked.

IMV travelling overseas is becoming increasingly more of a hassle and not sure if it is worth it anymore

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@nahdendee, Snowheads is social media......

I got an IMSPass in the 1990s. It was designed to fast track business travellers into the US. Had to register my hand print for that as well as passport picture. I couldn’t care less about what they used my biometrics for as the convenience of being able to walk up to a machine and simply place my hand on it in a Spock like shape that allowed me entry in about 30 seconds was absolutely amazing compared to queueing up to an hour at border control.

As far as I’m concerned, there are some people who will be very precious about their biometric information on a matter of principle. Far more that will not want to yield it because of criminal reasons. For the rest of us, I have no issue sharing this for the EES.

Best of luck to everyone but I am not paranoid and will be registering for EES at the first opportunity. Cool

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@rickboden, nor are you a paranoid, anti-vaxx conspiracy theorist NehNeh

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@nahdendee, just pointing out you said you didn't have any sm accounts in one rolling eyes

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Just wait until they want your DNA

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

In my view, it’s quite reasonable to want a zero digital footprint, for a variety of reasons. But achieving it is very difficult. Doubly so if you already have a presence of any sort in cyberspace. If you already exist in any form digitally, then I’d say it’ll take 5 years of substantial ‘off-grid’ effort before your trail goes completely cold.

Unfortunately, I think there’s very little space between being digitally off-grid versus substantially compromised. You can’t ’just’ be on something like Facebook without already having given away the bigger part of your privacy.

You'll need to Register first of course.

@LaForet, I’m not sure what the reasons are. I’m the future when 99% of the population are the 1% who fight it will be insignificant.

@rickboden, Jag är ganska säker på att hon också planerar min undergång. Hon köpte ett par fina nya skidvantar förra året. Det måste vara ett tecken…

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Well a primary reason to restrict your digital footprint is because many organisations are remarkably careless with the personal data you provide, plus incentivised financially to sell it on. And there is almost no penalty for them disclosing it, either through error or intent. You pay the price, not them.

My personal advice to the OP would be to explore a hybrid approach: take on a completely fictitious identity for services that you regard as not justifying the full disclosure they demand, and concede visibility in only a couple of cases such as banking and the EES.

Of course, this is easier said than done. I don’t know the OP’s circumstances, but as an adult in the UK, they are probably already visible to HMRC, DWP, DVLA, the NHS and the Passport Office. Then there are any banking, rental or mortgages services. Really, invisibility is almost impossible unless you assume a false identity at an early age, or have access to criminal means of identity camouflage. But to make this effective it seems to me that you’d need to do a lot of falsification of information, past a point that is legal.

And to reiterate the point, if I was determined to limit my exposure then I would just never register on any major social media platform like Facebook. Once you do that, it seems to me to make any attempt at anonymity pointless.

After all it is free

I'd go to Kopaonik in Serbia or Jahorina in Bosnia if I wanted to get most out of the trip. These two are two biggest resorts that I'm aware of. Heard Kolasin in Montenegro is nice, but never been there. The other resorts might be a treat for the off-piste skiing but they are quite small. Those include Brezovica in Kosovo, Babin Zub in N. Macedonia, Stara Planina and Zlatibor (ok apres not really an off-piste spot) in Serbia.

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Ski Europe without biometrics!?

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