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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Just checked out a web-site of a well known chain of ski stores in the U.K.
It was with regards to skier ability.
The famous scale of 1-10.

Please consider this carefully.

Ask yourselves; why do you ski, what you like about skiing, what you dislike about skiing, what you intend to work on if anything.

For me, on a scale of 1-10, an instuctor may register around 6-7. That's not to say they are bad skiers, mostly excellent skiers, but the scale must take in account of aggression, speed, control, frequency of which you ski at your best level.

I have to enter this topic, often, 10 times a day and often the client will think of the best they've ever skied. Take into account the worst you've skied recently and search for some consistancy between them, best and worst. Remember that a 10 on a scale of 1-10 must mean that you're the best skier there is, if this is true, you don't pay and probably know the LARGE-ONE quite well.

I don't wish to pull the rug out from beneath anyone, however an intermediate skier, skies 1-2 weeks a year, can link turns, ski reds, a little off-piste and finds it hard to progress without someone pushing them.
On the 1-10 scale this maybe a 3.

Try not to think of your ability in terms of a number, voice your strengths and weeknessess, aspirations, good and bad days, likes and dislikes. Most of all, be honest, it may help you improve. Little Angel
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Very true - but then most of the people at true levels 9-10 shouldn't ever need to pay for their own gear and in fact probably have stuff designed to their preferences. Its only a tool, Slush + Rubble I suspect sell very little race stock kit so there is no real need to have huge accuracy at the top end of the scale.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
fatbob, Then it maybe better for them to do away with the scale, or increase it to 20, that way flattering their customers. Twisted Evil
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Good advice sweetie, I'll try and make it to 4 this year wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, The problem is that many holiday skiers really can't see the difference in ability between themselves and instructors, and certainly not between instructors and the very top skiers. They just don't have the eye, and haven't had enough lessons to realise what it takes to be good! Sad thus the myths continue.
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LARGEZOOKEEPER, With that back we might have to drop the scale back into minnus. NehNeh
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Not far from the truth old boy Madeye-Smiley
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easiski wrote:
SMALLZOOKEEPER, The problem is that many holiday skiers really can't see the difference in ability between themselves and instructors, and certainly not between instructors and the very top skiers. They just don't have the eye, and haven't had enough lessons to realise what it takes to be good! Sad thus the myths continue.


Don't see what's wrong with this - if it flatters the holiday skier and they have fun there is no harm done. If it makes them think they are up to skiing hazardous off-piste lines then that's a different matter but I think most people recognise when they are out of their depth which is why most good instructors or guides I've been with ramp it up gently to start with.
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fatbob, This is more about buying the right equipment, however it will depend if your technician can intrepret your ramblings. Twisted Evil
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
...however it will depend if your technician can intrepret your ramblings. Twisted Evil
Absolutely. Similarly with making bookings with ski-shool, guides etc. - it's important that both client and supplier know what level of 'stuff' is involved. We had a very long and rather bad-tempered thread about this last year. The only important thing I see about these scales is that everyone using them should understand what they mean. Just saying "I'm a 6" has no meaning if the two people in the conversation are referring to different scales.

In the case of the S&R one, it's probably well targetted at their customers, as probably most of the 9+ level will either a) be looking at more specialist suppliers (e.g. Bartletts), or b) using other sources of information for gear selection. Quite clearly it's also not a linear scale as you get through the first 4 or 5 levels in no time flat - maybe a better approximation would be to say it's a logarithmic scale, i.e. if you multiply the amount of experience you have by N to go from each level to the next (e.g. 3 days for level 1, 1 week for level 2, 2 for level 3, 4 for level 4, 8 for 5, 16 for 6, 32 for 7, 64 for 8, 128 for level 9).
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GrahamN, Not a bad base to start from, not just an ugly pair of feet eh! Twisted Evil
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, if only! Sodding bunions not going down this summer at all....grrr Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad (and that using the waaay too big boots as well).
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S&R (and others) need the scale to be like that, so that beginners really think they are progressing.
If it was changed to:
Level 1: Ski greens.
Level 2: Ski blues.
Level 3: Ski blues comfortably
Level 4: Try reds.
Level 5: Ski reds.
Level 6: Ski reds comfortably. Try gentle off-piste runs - not just beside the piste
Level 7: Ski reds in several different resorts (not all in Andorra)
Level 8: Try blacks
Level 9: Ski blacks
Level 10: Ski blacks comfortably. Try steeper off-piste runs
Level 11: Ski blacks in several different continents.
Level 12: Ski blacks, and not feel the need to boast about it, or belittle those who don't.
Level 13: Ski beyond blacks.
Level 14: Be a ski guide.
Level 15: Ski Tech. (this no longer reflects ability, but knowledge of what they are really like)
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Wear The Fox Hat, good to see you still have your comedy levels in there (e.g. 11, 15). "think they are progressing" seems a bit condescending, though - "can show that they are progressing" would be more like it. 8 probably sits in before 6 too, and you've also conflated the top hugely. It takes about 3-4 years (full-time) and £20-30k investment to get from 13, to 14. Actually there's a huge range of ski ability variations in some 14s I've met; some excellent and highly experienced and respected guides seem bulletproof at getting down pretty much anything, but God knows how, and would give an instructor a field-day in what not to do.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
GrahamN,

Thats the truth...many a UIAGM guide can suck compared to the darling ESF skier..who knocks them into a cocked hat ski-wsie...but which one would you want to be with .. I'd take the guide anytime... and might even take a bit of comfort in the fact that they aren't the most stylish... I think there is as much difference bteween S&R's typical 1-10 scale as there is from the 10 onwards to being a really good good skier...

Most Brits skiers skills wouldn't even register on the resort locals skill set
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I think you are mistaken in attempting to collapse ability onto a single component scale.

I rate my ski-ing as: badger.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

many holiday skiers really can't see the difference in ability between themselves and instructors, and certainly not between instructors and the very top skiers.

I once did a black run in a lesson with an Austrian instructor (very slowly and carefully) and we stopped after loads of turns and he told us this was a Men's Downhill run, and that the downhill racers took their first turn just where we had stopped. We all gulped. We asked him if he could do that. "No", he said, there are loads of Austrians who ski as well as me, but very few top level downhill racers. He said there was a bigger gap between his level of ski-ing and a downhill racer's than there was between him and us. Hard to believe, and really made me think. However, I have never had any problem with the difference between me and an instructor. I watch the instructor doing those beautiful flowing easy, rhythmic turns through the powder, then I plough down after them, muscles screaming. How would I not notice the difference!! But the difference between a very good skier and a top skier is much harder for those of us without much experience. It's the same in many spheres of life - I am learning French and know enough to appreciate a range of abilities, above and below my own. But above a certain level I cannot discriminate. I like the idea of a scale with more points on it - there are huge leaps in the S & R scale; I have been steadily improving my ski-ing for some years, but hardly moved on that scale. In reality very few recreational skiers are happy on all pisted runs, anywhere, any day, any conditions (as opposed to hobbling or hurtling down somehow, and hoping nobody gets in the way). I doubt if I ever will be.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
fatbob wrote:
Very true - but then most of the people at true levels 9-10 shouldn't ever need to pay for their own gear and in fact probably have stuff designed to their preferences. Its only a tool, Slush + Rubble I suspect sell very little race stock kit so there is no real need to have huge accuracy at the top end of the scale.


I was staying over in filton on Thursday night at a hotel literally 15 metres from S&R Bristol. Had nothing else to do for the early evening (other than drink on the company credit card) and had a look in.

They had some skis left, and wierdly had RACE STOCK SL & GS skis from last year. At a huge discount of £50 off the RRP, and double what racers pay for them I might mention! hmm...can't see those selling in a hurry.

I did however buy a really nice 40% off pair of columbia ski pants having trashed my last remaining pair last season. Top notch gear at a very reasonable price, most bizzare as the stuff I had for the last couple of years that didn't last that long was free. I suppose some people will tell me that 200+ days inc gates/powder/trees is a lot to ask thoughfor 1 pair.

just had a look at the S&R scale, and the level 10 is exactly me. I am by no means the top of the tree, and know people at many "levels" that are above that. But as other posters have said, these people never would head down to a shop to buy ski gear. I know in 90% of cases for my purchases I wouldn't.
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pam w wrote:
Quote:

many holiday skiers really can't see the difference in ability between themselves and instructors, and certainly not between instructors and the very top skiers.

He said there was a bigger gap between his level of ski-ing and a downhill racer's than there was between him and us. Hard to believe, and really made me think. ...But the difference between a very good skier and a top skier is much harder for those of us without much experience. It's the same in many spheres of life - I am learning French and know enough to appreciate a range of abilities, above and below my own. But above a certain level I cannot discriminate. I like the idea of a scale with more points on it - there are huge leaps in the S & R scale; I have been steadily improving my ski-ing for some years, but hardly moved on that scale.


Perceptive, on several counts. I'm sure most purely recreational skiers (even if experienced) can't really tell the difference between a fully certified ski instructor and a professional competitor. I don't think there is anything wrong with a scale with more levels in the recreational range. These are usually intended to allow shops and instructors to peg their customers ability and to allow punters to assess and drive their progress. Neither do I think that most people are dumb enough to think that if they're Level 7 Early Advanced on the Plank and Tray scale that they're 70% of the way to competing on the World Cup circuit.

Quote:
In reality very few recreational skiers are happy on all pisted runs, anywhere, any day, any conditions (as opposed to hobbling or hurtling down somehow, and hoping nobody gets in the way)


Painful to hear, but true.
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Paul!!!

I've seen you ski, and on the S&R scale Laughing
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veeeight wrote:
Paul!!!

I've seen you ski, and on the S&R scale Laughing



is that good or bad?

I can actually do trees and powder properly now! I think the next level up should be "level 11 - Earn your turns - you are prepared to hike out of normal trails into the easy backcountry totackle the steeper and deeper. You likely have (or need) a transciever." This is what I am getting into now.

veeeight On another topic, have you got the instructor wage scale for whistler for last year? Mine is a couple of years out of date, and I am looking at waht to do for my work permit........ I alsready have a oaching job lined up, but that is not fulltime.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 12-08-06 21:21; edited 1 time in total
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what about, Level 16 lives in the Mountains only skis in perfect conditions where and when 'serious' skiing is practised Toofy Grin
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But this one goes to "11". 11 is one bettah.
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Flexon Phil wrote:
But this one goes to "11". 11 is one bettah.


I want an amp with a volume that goes to 11



Oh and runs that go on like this for ever.

Bonus points to anyone that can ID the line.
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paulhothersall, Looks like you need some bigger skis. Toofy Grin
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote:
paulhothersall, Looks like you need some bigger skis. Toofy Grin


I was obviusly only on a pair of skinny nordica beasts (Length 188cm,Dimensions 124/92/116)

Agree will have to go bigger and wider for next year. I am thinking about a couple of the new elan el grande snowboards..............

Seriously though, I have tried bigger and more waist, but floating closer to the top even in huge dumps of snow actually seems less fun. the prior doughboys fo example are just too wide, and mae everything just too easy.

I also had a few days on 63mm wide GS skis in this stuff, and have more respect to my elders who used to do powder all da on planks like those.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
fatbob, late to the table as usual, sorry. Take a closer look at
Quote:
frequency of which you ski at your best level
. Most important part, IMO.

Take two, oh, "Level 7"s just for kicks. Same height & weight.

One has Level 8 balance and athleticism, just need a bit of timing work and maybe some discipline with pole plants.

The other one is really a Level 6 who fights improper turn finish by muscling his weight forward to start the next one.

Should those 2 have the same gear? They might, once per piste, make the same turn. Maybe.


I get the impression SZK isn't impressed with the, oh, yeshiva atmosphere on other forums.
Fine.

Is there a better attempt at a level-30 scale?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
comprex wrote:
fatbob, late to the table as usual, sorry. Take a closer look at
Quote:
frequency of which you ski at your best level
. Most important part, IMO.

Take two, oh, "Level 7"s just for kicks. Same height & weight.

One has Level 8 balance and athleticism, just need a bit of timing work and maybe some discipline with pole plants.

The other one is really a Level 6 who fights improper turn finish by muscling his weight forward to start the next one.

Should those 2 have the same gear? They might, once per piste, make the same turn. Maybe.


I get the impression SZK isn't impressed with the, oh, yeshiva atmosphere on other forums.
Fine.

Is there a better attempt at a level-30 scale?


Are you taliking about epic? wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
You can disappear up you own backside with all this, its only a guide, talk to the shop/techs and see if you can get common ground. Better still, if in resort, try a few. These guides point you in the right direction, they shouldn't pick the ski for you..what do you want...blood ...???
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
JT wrote:
You can disappear up you own backside with all this, its only a guide, talk to the shop/techs and see if you can get common ground. Better still, if in resort, try a few. These guides point you in the right direction, they shouldn't pick the ski for you..what do you want...blood ...???


Point taken

However for most people, thy either ask the tech, the instructor, or more experienced friends to pick the ski they should get...... Its life, most people cannot demo skis (through either real reasons or the perception they can't)
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Because they haven't an exercised vocabulary for their strengths and weaknesses.

"Just follow me". And here's an ability scale to graft onto your best memories. Hey, you must've been pretty god, huh?



Fortunately, halo skis have a wider usefulness range -downwards- than stated on the box. Go, mfgs, go!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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paulhothersall, it's blackcomb mountain, unless I'm very much mistaken.
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Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
paulhothersall, it's blackcomb mountain, unless I'm very much mistaken.


well technically you are very much mistaken. You are VERY VERY close though,

and to completely give the game away blackcomb mountain is (just) in shot on the middle left.
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paulhothersall, is that off the back of the Harmony chair?
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Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
paulhothersall, is that off the back of the Harmony chair?


getting further away now!

(7th is closer)
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paulhothersall, so you're not on Whistler, but beyond blackcomb? Did you get there by helicopter?
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Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
paulhothersall, so you're not on Whistler, but beyond blackcomb? Did you get there by helicopter?


nope,

Levle 11 skiers earn their turns.

Its a decent walk. look at http://195.188.120.41/whistler/blackcombglaciertopo.jpg for details. Not posted as an image as it is a not a small few k file (its 322k)
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
paulhothersall, well, I'd still like to claim my bonus point!
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Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
paulhothersall, well, I'd still like to claim my bonus point!


Well done!

I hereby award on this day, the 13th of August 2006, a locaton finder award of GoldStar status to "Wear the Fox Hat" having (finally) managed to give an accurate answer to the retorical question of his user name!

Of course can we now create a standard repsonse to the question of where the F**ks that, to include this location now. The actually location is disease ridge...........
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paulhothersall wrote:

Levle 11 skiers earn their turns.


I know plenty of people who earn their turns and are useless skiers
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