 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We get up to 10 days authorised absence in Sweden. Seems a lot more sensible than the UK system.
If I lived in the UK I would try and take the kids out of school every year, especially when they are still young.
Ski Esprit basically shut down as they were operating on pretty much school holiday weeks only.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interesting to see all the 'posh' London councils at the bottom of the table. I don't think it's because they are relaxed about school absences in those boroughs...
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Our kids are 5 and 8. We've taken them out once to go to their grandmother's 80th birthday who lives 6 hours away. Its no doubt a standard thing but letters are quite threatening putting the guilt trip on thick for what was a days missed.
We do our summer holiday at the height of August. The main reason is the holiday club provision stops those 2 weeks to give the staff time off, so of we took it earlier we'd have to take that two weeks off anyhow.
My wife and I used to travel alot prior to having kids both skiing and non skiing trips. All that is a distant memory now!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I see our school council area Hammersmith and Fulham are near the bottom. One year, quite a few years ago, we had ours off from primary school inadvertantly. I checked, or thought I checked the term dates, booked but then when I looked again at the published term dates a few months later realised the holiday ate into term time. Not sure what happened, unless the dates were draft at some point then changed when they went final. Anyway this was at New Years, when the school expected them back on something like the 2nd Jan that year. Turned out about 1/3 of the school didnt expect term to start so early and so had also booked holidays, so werent there on the first days back either. Lucky for us it was so many as there were so many no one got fined.
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And yet the Authorities closed down schools for all pupils for months on end in 2020-2021 and caused many many pupils to miss weeks of schooling even into 2022. A few days here and there for a ski holiday pales into insignificance in that context.
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Shows what a mockery of system it is IMO. We've had to move to going in half term as we were fined for going during term time. The joke of it was the first one was year R where the mission of the week was to count to 10 and ours were counting to 100. Even more stupid is if your at school and 4 then you can't be fined but if your 5 you can.
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Canadian here...
Am I reading that in the UK you get fined for taking your kid out of school? If so... I have to say we're a pretty complacent bunch here in Canada (hence last night's election), but there's no way we'd stand for that!!!
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| Rob_Quads wrote: |
| ... The joke of it was the first one was year R where the mission of the week was to count to 10 and ours were counting to 100. Even more stupid is if your at school and 4 then you can't be fined but if your 5 you can. |
Is that because going to school isn't compulsory until the September after you turn 5? (Not sure if this varies across the country). So the logic would be that you can't be fined for not doing something that isn't compulsory in the first place. Although that ought to imply that there would usually be no fines at all for year R.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The data doesn’t give enough information though. How many of those fines issued by councils were for parents taking kids out of school for holiday and how many were for persistent truancy? Are some councils just fining everyone regardless of reason or are some judging things on a case by case basis?
I’m no longer teaching in England but in 7 years of teaching in two different boroughs I never heard of any families receiving fines.
I’m now at international school where the school just has to record absences/reasons and report it to the government - with no consequences. We have some kids who have a lot of time off for travelling. In the classes I teach, consistently those children are working at a much lower level than kids who have very few absences.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Rob_Quads wrote: |
| The joke of it was the first one was year R where the mission of the week was to count to 10 and ours were counting to 100. |
Why is that “a joke”? Kids at different levels in a class can learn to help each other (teaching is a great way to reinforce learning), can provide inspiration and challenge, and can be stretched in other ways. One of my only memories of reception class is that the few of us who could already read well, would listen to other kids learning to read and help them with tricky words. Amazing experience.
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But the statement is that my child would be damaged by taking them out of school. It’s all about the damage it’s causing to them is the main reason we should not be taking them out and they will suffer for the rest of education (effect on others is not theirs justification)
Everyone one of their teachers have been fully supportive of going away on a holiday during term so it can't be causing them too much disruption. Obviously I wouldn't do it during an important time of year around exams etc because that's not responsible but IMO the experience of a holiday is just as valuable education.
Many heads will also allow children to go off to sporting events i.e. ours let 3 go to a national cheer leading competition in the US for a week. So it's OK to do that but it's not OK to do some skiing, surely both will damage their education just as much or are they now saying that experience is OK but doing skiing is not. It makes a mockery of the whole system.
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You know it makes sense.
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I was a parent governor at our kids primary school. Because our Cluster of primary schools had below average attainment it was concluded it was because it had a below average attendance record. Consequently our head teacher (a very impressive young woman who we had been lucky enough to appoint and is still there) was therefore really hot on non-attendance.
Our school was in an affluent village with well above average attainment, whereas the rest of the Cluster was in the nearby town with below average attainment. I tried numerous times to explain non-attendance was a confounding and not a causative factor for poor attainment, but she just couldn’t understand the concept which really surprised me.
It didn’t help we had 4 children at the School (at least for one year) so taking ours out (along with our pals’ children who we went holidaying with) hammered the attendance figures even if it was for only a day or two. It led to some quite interesting governors meetings at times! No fines though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| hammerite wrote: |
| I’m now at international school where the school just has to record absences/reasons and report it to the government - with no consequences. We have some kids who have a lot of time off for travelling. In the classes I teach, consistently those children are working at a much lower level than kids who have very few absences. |
What age at the kids you are referring to? I am assuming that taking a 5/6 year old out for a period of time has a significant difference to taking a 14/15 year old out of school.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My missus is dead against taking our out in term time just because she believes they should be in school. I'm less so, but the threat of being that one example who gets the book thrown at them does put me off.
The only time we have taken them out early is Easter when they both break up at noon, so they play sick so we can get the early crossing to France. Yes, a bit hypocritical given our stance on it, but far removed from taking them out for a whole week for example.
My eldest is in yr10 and there are loads of his friends who go away in term time. I do question how they're getting away with it - whether the school and county council (Warwickshire) aren't that hot on it - and I will admit that it does tempt me to try it when I see January prices so low. But I'm a chicken and I just step back into line and pay the holiday time prices
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In terms of getting away with it, if they call in sick on the Monday then they will be fine as the school are technically not required to report them because they will only have 8 absences not the 10 required. Obviously if they investigated whether they were really ill they could do something but no school is going to do that given current funding.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Rob_Quads wrote: |
But the statement is that my child would be damaged by taking them out of school. It’s all about the damage it’s causing to them is the main reason we should not be taking them out and they will suffer for the rest of education (effect on others is not theirs justification)
...
Many heads will also allow children to go off to sporting events i.e. ours let 3 go to a national cheer leading competition in the US for a week. So it's OK to do that but it's not OK to do some skiing, surely both will damage their education just as much or are they now saying that experience is OK but doing skiing is not. It makes a mockery of the whole system. |
Your child is losing out on the opportunity to consolidate their learning, and to learn how to help others. That seems like a significant loss to me. And additionally there's a negative impact on the rest of the class, which clearly some people care about and others don't.
And yes, school trips, sporting events etc. are also a different learning experience IMO than a family holiday. Not least, the former happen on fixed dates, and the latter have at least 15 weeks a year available for them.
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The issue is that by introducing legislation and removing Head Teachers' authority the government has created this problem whereby we're in a 'grey' area with some schools/districts fining and others not.
In the past, Head Teachers could authorise absences and, provided that the attendance and achievement levels were good, they would do so. If an absence was authorised then it didn't impact the school's attendance rate index.
I took my kids out of school a few times (with approval) and they both made it to university so it clearly didn't impact their learning. If anything, I think it helped as they socialised with French, Swiss and Germans and improved their language skills.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry but I don't buy it. Yes you get experiences from doing the sporting event but you also get equally valuable experiences on a skiing trip. Having heard about what they did on the tip to Florida for cheerleading apart from the actual experience of being away from home there was virtually no learning, it was really no difference to what they do during the competitions at weekends so comparing it to the experience when Skiiing where they are mixing with foreign children etc its a very similar experience (Yes they also did a day at one of the parks too)
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| Rob_Quads wrote: |
| Sorry but I don't buy it. Yes you get experiences from doing the sporting event but you also get equally valuable experiences on a skiing trip.... |
My eldest is in a new school to our area, his year was the first to go in so he's been exposed to the school expanding and evolving as he's moved up. He's in yr10 now.
They're run several trips to foreign countries that I've always had my doubts about the validity of the educational element; he's been on one to Paris, the other to Barcelona. Both were pitched as being based around cultural learning and language use, although I highly doubt there was any enforcement of them speaking French or Spanish. They did the usual sightseeing and also a full day at theme parks, which to me doesn't seem 'authentic' to the culture.
This November they have a trip to Berlin, which sound great, but seeing as there is NO German language learning in the school, I can only assume that it'll have relevance from a history perspective, although I'll believe that when I see it.
I'd say from a language perspective, my kids have spoken more French on ski trips than they ever will when they're messing around in Paris on a free-to-roam day with their mates.
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If you took the letter of the law re unapproved absence in our area its £60 per child, per day, per parent, so theoretically £120 for a 2 parent household taking the kid out for 1 day.
Twice, we took the two kids a day early, so potential exposure of £240, but still cheaper than not... total amount in fines accrued - £60, baffling implementation.
I always think of this like the example in Freakanomics - a daycare centre was fed up with parents collecting their kids late, so implemented a fine system of £5. Result was a net increase in the number of children being collected late, because the cost of the fine was under what people valued that additional time at, and felt that if they were paying for it then they no longer 'guilty' of collecting Jnr late.
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Just to clarify - I am not comparing holidays to doing school trips to foreign countries specifically for learning as yes that are very valuable but to things that are sporting events such as cheerleading, running races, judo competitions (all of which were given as approved by our school) .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Rob_Quads wrote: |
| apart from the actual experience of being away from home there was virtually no learning |
So apart from the sewers and the roads and the hospitals, what have the Romans ever done for us? It's descending into farce.
Being away from home in a new environment is an incredible rich learning experience. I bet they learned far more in terms of broad life and social skills, in that week, than they'd learn in a week at school.
The great think is that you can also take them away in the holidays and they can have the family learning experience as well. It doesn't have to be either/or. It only becomes either/or when you choose to take them out of school to substitute in an alternative experience, rather than doing it in the holidays and making it additive.
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We had some friends who were always taking their daughter out of school for holidays. They then decided their daughter was under-performing, and her poor attitude to schoolwork was the school's fault; they moved her to a private school. Once they were paying they completely stopped taking her out of school.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We got fined two years ago as we missed five days. No issue with that, we know what the rules are. We go to Canada and try and bridge half term in Feb but the dates that year meant we couldn't make it work for both us and our friends, so we took the hit.
We made that decision in full knowledge that we'd likely get a fine, and we did. And rightly so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Getting fined for missing school seems to be English / Welsh thing.
We have taken the kids out of primary school on 2 or 3 occasions.
Usually for a ski trip to avoid new year / xmas week.
Head mistress been delighted we let her know and wished us a good week off.
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| narbs wrote: |
We got fined two years ago as we missed five days. No issue with that, we know what the rules are. We go to Canada and try and bridge half term in Feb but the dates that year meant we couldn't make it work for both us and our friends, so we took the hit.
We made that decision in full knowledge that we'd likely get a fine, and we did. And rightly so. |
I’d accept this if the reverse were true- payments in our direction if schools closed eg for industrial action (on the horizon again!) or, yes, the Covid shutdowns.
It’s a one way street though- parents taking children out for school bad= financial penalty for reckless undermining of children’s education, schools closing with the same outcome of children missing school ≠ fines the other way- and then cue sanctimonious piffle from the Govt about it being for the greater good (Covid shutdowns well beyond what was sensible) or to improve the school system (Unions in more pay argument)
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You know it makes sense.
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Lady over here took her local town hall to court over a 2000chf fine for 1 day off. It was reduced to 500chf
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Doccam, would you like the police to pay you every time you go for a drive and don’t speed?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowdave wrote: |
| @Doccam, would you like the police to pay you every time you go for a drive and don’t speed? |
They've put it into law for airlines to pay for service not delivered 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Took our 4 children out of school of a week in March. We booked it prior to the rule change, where previously a child was allowed up to 5 days (10 absences), so no fine would have been triggered. Got fined per child, per parent! So total fine was £1,280! Still made the week cheaper overall than going in the Feb half term. Plus the bonus of quiet pistes, lifts, restaurants, etc!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Doccam, talking of piffle, sounds like you missed a lot of school in your time 
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| snowdave wrote: |
| @Doccam, would you like the police to pay you every time you go for a drive and don’t speed? |
No because that's not the fair comparison. The fair comparison using that language would be saying they should pay them for taking them to school which is not what's being asked just if someone else stops them being educated they are equally fined.
A fair comparison would be how about loads of police forces decide not to charge anyone for speeding and just let them do what you like but the neighbouring police force follows the law.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| leggyblonde wrote: |
| @Doccam, talking of piffle, sounds like you missed a lot of school in your time |
Missed a bit with odd out of term holiday- including skiing with the school trip funnily enough! Did alright academically though.
As for my kids we did take them out on a number of occasions- day or two at a time but certainly pretty much every school year one way or another. Hasn’t affected their achievements- so far 3 successfully through Russell Group Uni’s with 2:1s x2 and a 1st, the final one also at Russell Group Uni and doing ok.
To be fair both 2:1’s were very close to 1st’s. I can only speculate that they would have got 1st’s but for the time missed in school for ski trips- that’s a counterfactual we’ll never know.
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We are both in a profession that needed a replacement locum if we had holidays. Most locums at the time were women with young families, who also wanted school holidays. We couldn't all be off in the 6 weeks, Feb Half-term and Christmas, so we had to take the children out of school, mainly during their primary education, but occasionally later as well. Primary head's Mother was in the same profession, and he used to get taken out of school for the same reason, so we had no pushback from them at all. No fines in those days though.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| We are both in a profession that needed a replacement locum if we had holidays. Most locums at the time were women with young families, who also wanted school holidays. We couldn't all be off in the 6 weeks, Feb Half-term and Christmas, so we had to take the children out of school, mainly during their primary education, but occasionally later as well. Primary head's Mother was in the same profession, and he used to get taken out of school for the same reason, so we had no pushback from them at all. No fines in those days though. |
And that is a prime example of it all depends on the head (or LEA) in question. That was a break of a rules which should have been reported to the local LEA and resulted in a fine
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Why should children (and their parents) be treated equally as soldiers in the army??? 
Some children are fast learners. Others are not. Some parents have jobs that prevent them from taking holiday during school breaks.
Do teachers all just recite from text book in class? Making no allowance to the pace of learning of individual students? Good teachers can accommodate.
In this day and age, schools are still trying to force a one-size-fits-all to education. Little wonders many students "need" to go to university in order to actually get the education they really need to function in the real world!
| Rob_Quads wrote: |
And that is a prime example of it all depends on the head (or LEA) in question. That was a break of a rules which should have been reported to the local LEA and resulted in a fine |
The very talk of "rules" in this context strikes me as outdated as the need to learn to use typewriters and slide rules over computers and smartphones
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I plan to stay under the radar tagging on an inset day to stay below the 10 session threshold...
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| Legend. wrote: |
| hammerite wrote: |
| I’m now at international school where the school just has to record absences/reasons and report it to the government - with no consequences. We have some kids who have a lot of time off for travelling. In the classes I teach, consistently those children are working at a much lower level than kids who have very few absences. |
What age at the kids you are referring to? I am assuming that taking a 5/6 year old out for a period of time has a significant difference to taking a 14/15 year old out of school. |
I teach upper primary. Mostly 10 year olds at the moment (Y6).
Without having statistics/academic research for it, I’d say missing time in years 3-6 (7-11 year olds) could be the most impactful. In years 1 & 2 there’s a lot of room for consolidation of skills and knowledge to improve understanding. The curriculum in years 3-6 are so packed that there’s not a lot of time to go over stuff again for anyone who has missed chunks. Yes, we consolidate year on year - so continue developing skills but within that one year we don’t have much time to continue going over things taught previously. I’m not saying kids who miss time in those years won’t eventually learn what they’ve missed but it takes some time to do so.
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FAQ
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