Oak mountain sports app - join a group or find a ski partner

A snowHead

I tried this out and it’s pretty cool. Started in Cham but they’re now expanding it out to different resorts. They organized a freeride activity in Verbier on Weds and it was a very good level - similar to what you would do with a guide. But self-guided by the group so free, albeit reliant on the knowledge in the group. And it was followed by a social afterwards where quite a few people showed up. Looks like a great way to expand your ski horizons and network if you don’t have reliable partners to ski with or are going somewhere new. Met the founder who has financial backing and is serious about expanding the network. He’s partnered up with Dave Searle, the Chamonix Guide who does excellent equipment videos on IG / YouTube (https://www.instagram.com/davejsearle?igsh=MW9ud3ZvaWsxYTU3Yg== )
So I guess they are going to add guided activities too. I love the concept and will organize some more activities for them in Verbier to see if it works.

Here’s the blurb and the link if you want to try it out:
Join adventures and meet new people - Finding the ideal mountain partners can be tricky, particularly in new places. Oak makes this necessary process easy, safe, and fun.

https://getoak.app/oak-mountain-partners

A snowHead

I've seen Dave Searle talking about it in his YouTube videos, but haven't looked in to it at all. Will check it out and see if anything is there for Zillertal yet.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

True story. ~15 years ago I had a pal who arranged to met a random dude online (via TGR forums) to go ski the glacier Rond in chamonix. They got heinously lost in the mist on the exit and ended up lost among seracs in avalanche terrain trying to ski back to town.

My friend (non french speaker) used the final credit & battery on his PAYG phone to call me. In the end I had to call french mountain rescue from over in Switzerland and coordinate a rescue. Pair of them were scooped up by PHGM helicopter from precarious position on the glacier Bossons just before sunset with some inclement weather rolling in fast.

Fwiw: I have had some brilliant internet skiing hooks ups. So not against concept of Oak app. Thankfully however I was working that particular day and avoided the ignomy, on this occasion, of being rescued Laughing

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I think it's a pretty good app.

@Haggis_Trap, one of the positives of oak is that it creates a logbook for every person so you can see which tours they have done through the app. So you can get a good feeling for how much experience people have.

Although in fairness what happened to your friend was not necessarily the fault of them being strangers meeting on the internet. (Unless there is a bit of a backstory). It could just have easily been two friends that knew each other well overestimating their abilities and getting in over their heads.

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True story. ~this season, from a friend about a mutual friend when I asked him how he got on....

.....yeh, he struggled. It was a long day for him. It is tough when people tell you they can ski but maybe don't really understand what that means.....

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So an app to get people together to do a particular activity (at a particular skill level). How’s that different from meetup.com?

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After all it is free

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How long before ESF find a way to make it illegal in france...? rolling eyes

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I signed up, and found that there's a Zillertal group set up with 12 others in it.

I probably won't get a chance to get out this season, but have been very open in my profile that while my skiing level is decent, my touring experience is really nothing beyond a 1 week L1 Mountain Safety course.

Will be interesting to see if I ever use the app to go out touring or not.

Having done meet ups in the past for running, cycling, paddling and resort skiing, I always plan to do something easy/straightforward just in case people are over estimating their abilities. If I’m going on something someone else has organised, I choose to go on something well within my capabilities in case the others have down played their ability/fitness. I don’t want to feel like a burden or anyone to feel they’re a burden on me.

Once you know everyone a little better, you can organise more adventurous/challenging stuff.

You know it makes sense.

Well we managed the backside of Mont Fort with 8 people and everyone had a good enough ski level and the fitness for 2 bootpacks so seems the self-grading worked well enough in my sample size of 1

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Checked out my local area. There’s a decent sized group here including someone well known who has climbed Everest twice. Probably a bit of an advanced group for a beginner piste tourer like me but you never know.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Maybe I'm getting paranoid in my advancing years, and especially here in France, but should any unfortunate incident occur, then there would be a detailed investigation, even if it were just a heli evac for an injured party, and questions would be asked as to who the leader is/was etc and questions re route choice and the like.

The French do not like anyone leading etc who is not qualified and will incarcerate them very quickly, which is all very top of mind as we've been drinking with the new SCGB rep here and he was telling us what they can and can't do, he can't even wear his jacket !!

And that is one reason why I'm very careful and have actually advised a good Swedish friend that I'm not prepared to take four of his friends out as a group, we then agreed that it would be he that takes responsibility as to being the "leader" etc and I was anal enough to say all this in texts to cover my backside.

So there's absolutely no way I'd take 8 people up a route, and as per the other thread in the off-piste section, I'm also not about to show 8 strangers my routes !!!

So what are the legalities ??

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Well it’s been running for over a year in Chamonix, which is in France if my geography serves me well?

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@Origen, there's been plenty of examples of qualified people being arrested, but not qualified in the eyes of the French over the years, and hence the whole SCGB issue.

French school teachers in charge of a group also springs to mind over the years and the consequences thereof.

Pretty sure@Hamilton Academical, is right and God Forbid should anything ever happen then I know there is always a thorough investigation.

After all it is free

@BobinCH, where there have been tragic incidents, there is always a very thorough investigation and the authorities always attempt to prosecute the person deemed to be in charge, even UIAGM guides!

So if there have been no incidents in Cham, then all likelihood there will be no issues.

However, over the years, many such scenarios have been reported, with the CAF, for instance.

I'm sure @davidof, knows probably more about various cases and legalities reported in the French Media.

So a group of friends would be investigated thoroughly and if it came out that said group of friends were not true friends but just Internet acquaintances, then they would certainly look for a scapegoat.

It really is a bit of a minefield and like I said there's maybe an element of paranoia on my side but I've not made it up and like I say, I surmise, for whatever reason @Hamilton Academical, maybe knows more ?

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As @Origen, says show an example of where a person who is not a professional and/or acting in the role of a professional has been persecuted. It just doesn't make sense that a legitimate group of peers would be legally culpable if one member gets hurt. The argument that guides have been prosecuted is completely different, they are a paid professional there to ensure safety.

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Here is a relatively recent example;

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/france-french-alps-mont-blanc-manchester-bonneville-b1196600.html

From what I understand/remember the group included a few more people, one of whom was an off duty ski instructor, who had worked as an instructor to the victims previously. The instructor was wearing a beacon, I don't think the victims were. If they were really looking to find someone to blame they could have went after the instructor. But no they just called it an accidental death.

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@boarder2020, I bow to your knowledge and experience of skiing and living in France, as I obviously know nothing and have made this all up Laughing

As it happens I'm with a LG top guide for a couple of days this week and he's seen a lot of stuff over the years, I'll get his take on it, but like I said previously @Hamilton Academical, also shares the same views as well and it sounds like he maybe able to provide you with the answers you wish to hear.

You know it makes sense.

France is France, and Switzerland isn't France.

The Swiss have a rather grown-up attitude to Health&Safety it seems to me:
There is a sign, it says "this is dangerous".
You do it anyway.
Something happens.
Your fault, nobody else's.

Maybe Oak App has a pending liability issue in France for the reasons discussed. Maybe. Maybe not.
I'd be amazed if it did in Switzerland.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Weathercam, all I ask is for one example where a group of friends/acquaintances have went out ski touring and one has ended up getting into legal trouble.

You can see the story I linked to above, which is fairly standard avalanche being ruled as "accidental death" and partners walking away without any legal action.

All the speculation about potential legal issues seems to be based around guides/teachers being held responsible for those they were in care of. Which makes sense, and is completely not relevant to oak or ski touring with friends in general.

Perhaps french ski tourers will have to start traveling to USA for their more relaxed litigious culture Laughing

A snowHead

@boarder2020, it's more to probably do with the French and their protectionist way they go about things.

Take the scenario where and if I were to use the app and four people hooked up with me to go skiing (off-piste in any form).

Said four people were visiting Serre Che and not residents, but had used the app to get in contact with me and I had agreed to take them out.

And then should an incident occur it would be me that would be severely investigated as I would be deemed to be leading without any qualifications.

This all goes back to even qualified Brits unable to teach/guide even in resort let alone Off-Piste and various court cases and the whole guiding/hosting practice that TO's used to operate and the reason why SCGB can not operate in France the way they can in other countries.

https://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/1432/

A snowHead

In France they tend to look at a few things about whether the group is lead or not.

First is for reward, this means pay but can also include if someone is paying your expenses. If this is the case then you should be a professional that holds a carte professional for that sport. If you don’t you can be charged with impersonating a guides as well as any other charges they throw at you for injures or death caused.

Then they look at is it an organised event, with the participants believing they are being lead or given instruction, even though the leader may not be paid. This is where the likes of CAF come in, they have their own award structure and run groups that are open to members of CAF. Using their own qualified CAF leaders (Not guides). In this case the clients are on a course and the same high duty of care should apply.

Then you come to friends being out, you don’t really have a higher duty of care as you are equals. you do have some responsibility to others. Thats why it’s a good idea to have some public liability insurance in case of cilvil cases. For example people have been charged when they have triggered an avalanche that has hit others. But that is standard duty of care we all have to each other. I guess people you don’t know or their families if they don’t survive maybe more likely to try and take action than people you know well??? Maybe.

Even taking a friend out to show them the ropes, you are unlikely to come in to issues, providing it’s not an organised event, open to others, and you are not getting a reward. If you are dong that with people you don’t know then I think you would be careful with the wording of what you are offering.

In terms of hooking up with people on apps or online, it should be seen as going with friends. But I would still think about the conversation you have, make sure everyone knows the route, the grade etc and confirm everyone is happy to do it.

I am the person Webcam quoted after I agreed to ski with someone who I didn’t know. I have to say he was a nice guy. But a bit off, on where he thought his level was. Not a big deal that day.

He wasn’t the first, I have had guys tell me they will ski anything, only to arrive at a couloir to be told, no they wont ski that. This comes from a verity of reasons, some not really their fault, you don’t know what you don’t know, to some that just have a big ego.

I prefer to ski in my teams of friends, as you get to really know each other and understand how each other will react, you know what each person can do and it’s also more supportive. I tend to always have someone who I know to ski with or I enjoy solo skiing as well. But if contacted I am sometimes happy to meet others, for me I don’t mind as I am comfortable making my own calls. Happy to call people out, and if needed I am quite happy to ski on my own, so can always leave a group I feel is not safe. I also don’t plan epic stiff on a first date as such wink

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If you are looking or need to find people to hook up, with then an app with a profile is probably as good as it gets for strangers. I still think a chat about skill level, fitness, goals for the day and risk acceptance is a good idea. And underplay what you can do is probably better all round.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Haggis_Trap, joined a nice easy one to start with. Mont Fort North face 10 days after snow snowHead

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It’s pretty clear the level required and also that the proposer is not the guide and you are responsible for yourself imo

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@Weathercam, the point is to meet up with like minded riders. The North face of Mont Fort is hardly a secret? But it’s a serious route and not one you really want to do alone.

After all it is free

The French authorities won’t be bothered about this app until someone with some clout, like an EFS director, gets pressured over it. Might never happen, keep telling yourselves that. Especially those of you who are ‘well known’ locally and who have other business interests in a resort. ‘This app is being used by a corporate entity to…’ might be the claim that you’d have to defend against a local justice system that will be biased against you from the start.

I’m giving France as an example, but it could just as easily happen in other major Alpine nations, who, last I was briefed, were in the process of aligning all the relevant laws around this stuff with each other.

Another potential tweak in interest, would be if this app really took off.

All the TO leading was stopped, but when some bight spark, on a fat salary and not much to justify it, works out that this app now represents a sizable aggregate of that leading.

For now, a bigger threat is probably a civil action taken by a group member against another group member. Could be utterly without merit, but you’d still have to deal with it. ‘You told us it was good snow down there, but I broke my finger’. Don’t ski with lawyers, and don’t ski with beginners.

So there are two issues.

1. failure of duty of care.

Easy trap to avoid by offering no opinions whilst making sure you aren’t by far the best skier in the group. And if you think you are, just leave the group at a safe place.

2. Accusations of leading without qualifications.

The suggestion is that ‘as long as you do it for free, you are fine’, no you’re not. There’s actually a remuneration level (in France) with was set at €1. Easy to bust that by accident. That coffee someone got you. That energy bar someone gave you. It all comes out under investigation.

All the above is based on briefing notes I took during a 2020 meeting with a lawyer who was qualified in France and Switzerland.

^ Disgruntled former Ski Club of GB rep Laughing

The obvious difference of course is that scgb reps were renumerated / compensated (either directly or in kind). Plus members paid for services provided by the club. Their leaders were not qualified to lead commercial groups off piste.

However: The suggestion French are "protectionist" and won't allow this app is hyperbole. When it comes to off piste skiing they are actually very much "libertarian" regarding their views on access and personal choice / freedom. The key however is that it needs to be genuine not for profit and entirely peer to peer.

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@Weathercam, from what I've seen most of the routes on oak are fairly standard popular routes you would find in any guidebook. So hardly giving away local secrets!

I suspect you (like me and 99% of others) have over the years benefited by someone more familiar with an area passing on their knowledge of touring/freeride routes. It seems a bit selfish to then not pass some of it on - and I'm sure the reality is you have shown many friends areas/lines they were not previously familiar with.

The idea that anyone is independently finding all their touring zones without input from others/guidebooks/websites/apps is a bit unrealistic. Even more unrealistic to think they are truly finding completely unknown areas nobody skied before. I'm sure 99% of tourers don't even put in a single skin track each season!

I have to say when I first heard about oak the question "why would a local share their routes" never even crossed my mind. My thought was kind of opposite in that - there are probably lots of people looking for partners/groups.

But perhaps my attitude is somewhat influenced by the fact most of my touring has been done in places pretty remote. Maybe if I was constantly touring in overcrowded areas of Europe I'd have a different view.

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Oak mountain sports app - join a group or find a ski partner

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