I totally get the big companies wanting the security of selling lots of season tickets, but with the price increases it really makes no sense for any European to go to the USA to ski now. Last time I went was 2016, great time we had but even then lessons/guiding was too expensive and now the whole holiday is just way too pricey. I'll stay in Europe thanks.
I think for like for like traditional skiing hol, ski in/outish, rental skis and lessons etc this is almost certainly true. Though if you fancy a 3 week + road trip to lots of "premium" places with a kicker of free passes for a couple of extra weeks in Europe the balance is better.
Kinda doesn't matter - you go to Whistler because you want to go to Whistler and if you're sensible you research all in costs before you commit. The fact that a Sunweb week in Val Cenis would probably cost you less than third is kinda irrelevant.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
boarder2020 wrote:
BobinCH wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
Yet Vail get all the hate?
Maybe bleating on about guest experience while shafting your punters with closures due to staff strikes, ripoff lessons/equipment and big lift queues comes with consequences?
People were criticising the cost of Vail lessons, when it looks like they are pretty much just consistent with other similar resorts pricing.
On one hand Vail is too expensive. On the other hand lift lines are too long? It sounds like a bit of a contradiction.
According to Google Vail ski instructor average salary = $41k, national average ski instructor salary = $38k. Again, looks like Vail is in line with average if not slightly better.
The park city patrollers were not exactly being exploited either. The new recruits were already on above national median hourly wage.
As I said before, it's a selfish view, but I really don't care as long as they give cheap multi resort season passes. They are a business and I fully expect them to try to maximise profit however they can and I don't really see a problem with that.
Why do you keep commenting if you dont care so much? The kids March online lesson price amount to $585 for a single day group lesson with max 6 people (or $770 including tax and tip)? At $3500 a day that $41k salary must take them about 12 working days to pay. If you think subsidizing season pass holders by ripping off families is a cool move then that’s fine
There are big lift q’s due to the cheap season passes (and striking patrollers), not the ski lesson prices. Is this really that hard a concept for you to grasp
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I was in whistler in January and a 3hr private lesson was $850 Canadian plus a 20% tip . Needless to say we didn’t take any. Prices were outrageous. Lift passes were about £550 each for 7 days with an epic pass bought on early November . However if you wait until the season starts it almost doubles in price . Have also also been to Park City a lot of the years as Brother in a law lived there for 20 years.Its completely unaffordable if you don’t buy your pass before the season starts as an adult day ticket is now around $300 .Spoke to some locals on the lift in Whisler and they said many of the ski instructors were sitting with no work because of the prices.
@BobinCH, can't be long before there's a pass offered that lets you skip the long weekend lines...
Other add-ons available at Vail include:
$25/day if you'd like to leave you shoes in the ski rental shop, to change back into when you return. Yes, seriously.
$40/day for parking, or $5,500 for the season
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
To be fair to Vail Resorts they don't actually have any parking at Vail. That's all Town of Vail, who are more than happy of course to charge appropriately. There are some reasonably well guarded local hacks but they add to ballache and need to get there early enough.
@Dave of the Marmottes, fair enough. Clearly if VR owned it, the price would be $50/day
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Dave of the Marmottes, I've done two week long trips long haul, anything less is a bit silly really. NA/Canada sliding is different to Europe but now you can have 3 weeks in Espace Killy or 3 valleys easily for 2 weeks in NA or Canada, throw in guiding or lessons and it's a no brainer for me. Shame cos I love Fernie and Revelstoke.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Vail...went there 2016. We wandered around the town sussing out where to eat and came to the conclusion we couldn't afford a coffee, let alone a meal it was so bad. There was a scruffy mexican diner in the bus station so we eat there a few times.
Skiing was epic though.
The main problem with anywhere I've been in NA/Canada is if it's a powder day the lift lies are stupid. We were told at Revelstoke, if it's a powder day get to the bottom of the hill around 6am otherwise you'll be in the queue for hours...it didn't snow when we were there so never got to put it to the test.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
A lot of the pricing seems crazy to us but I think that is a symptom of people in the UK earning much, much less than Americans.
The average wage for a nurse in California is $113,000. Not a specialist paediatric nurse or an oncology nurse. A standard nurse.
Agree.... I preferred simplicity that you went to the window and bought a day pass on a wicket. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that anymore.
It certainly would be more simple!
I do find it amusing that on snowheads you can discuss when the easy jet flights will be released as it's completely normalised to have to get them immediately to get the best price. Yet the same concept for buying lift passes is a completely alien concept that people seemingly hate.
That was supposed to be a round of applause
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I cannot stress this highly enough
Anyone who takes someone to learn at a resort like Vail and then complains about the cost needs an uppercut
You are a moron, most probably a selfish moron
You want to ski there
Go another time , on your own, ski the poo-poo out of it
Well known resorts does not equal best instructors and best terrain to learn on
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Mike Pow, maybe not a moron but just unaware.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I went to Vail once, early 2000s, as a package, after doing Banff a couple of times. Was unimpressed with the resort price//quality (something about no discount for five lessons, then after 2-3 days I found that was possible; let them know clearly and got retrospective discount, but other things also) and other British chalet occupants. Not interested in going back.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
boarder2020 wrote:
People were criticising the cost of Vail lessons, when it looks like they are pretty much just consistent with other similar resorts pricing.
It isn't. You can get lessons for less outside of Vail. Just not "similar resorts" such as Keystone or Breckenridge.
See this:
Mike Pow wrote:
I cannot stress this highly enough
Anyone who takes someone to learn at a resort like Vail and then complains about the cost needs an uppercut
You are a moron, most probably a selfish moron
You want to ski there
Go another time , on your own, ski the poo-poo out of it
Well known resorts does not equal best instructors and best terrain to learn on
Spot on.
There're better resorts for learning. But the oversea visitors just don't care enough. They've spent the money to fly over, big lodging expense. It really doesn't matter how much extra the lesson cost. In fact, the same is true for Americans who doesn't live near any ski mountains. Basically, for those who live near snow and mountain, there're a lot cheaper ways to learn. But for visitors, that doesn't make sense as the travel cost outweights the cost of lesson.
That said, someone I know who live in the steamy south figured out it somehow cost her family nothing for lift pass if she book some kind of package including private lessons (don't remember the detail). So yes, there're ways to cut the cost way down. People just have to hunt it down, like the way they hunt down flights.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Orange200, sorry one of Vail's failings was other British tourists in your chalet? Not sure you can pin that on VR
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Just a factoid to throw into the mix ... the average cost/day for a lift pass from VR last year was USD84 (total lift pass revenue divided by skier days).
I would imagine that Zermatt (where I mostly ski) has a similar cost/day ... but with the difference that you can rock up and buy a pass without getting completely shafted. If you buy in advance and online then it's cheaper ... but you don't save that much.
So, to some extent, I wonder how much of all of this is driven by fundamental differences in how people ski in Europe vs US. With, on average, far shorter annual leave allowances I would guess that a lot of US skiers take long weekends, or just weekends, so it makes sense for them to buy something that allows them to do that ... and to go when the snow is good. For us in Europe most have more leave and there is a tendency to take a 'standard week' rather than more, shorter, trips. So, even with the reduced cost/day of the season pass it wouldn't make sense for many European skiers.
Personally, I'm very much in favour of the long weekend and do quite a lot of them. Four days skiing for only two days leave ... and you get changeover day when the slopes are usually very quiet.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Blackblade, there’s a lot of truth in that (different skiing pattern between N. America and Europe). Annual leave is only one of the factor, and not even the most important one for that. Reality being, much larger percentage of Americans live near snow. So skiing on multiple weekends are the norm thanks to proximity.
Majority of US resorts are also much smaller than their European counterpart. So, staying put for 1 week of skiing aren’t the most common ski holiday pattern. When people have more than a week, many opted to do a “road trip” of several mountains instead. Whilst in Europe, most people will be quite content to spend 2 weeks in say, 3 Valleys or the Dolomites, at which point a season pass would have broken even. It’s just a single domain season pass instead of a multiple resort “mega pass”.
With that, the “multiple resort pass” makes a lot more sense in N America than in Europe!
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Already we are seeing similar pricing in Europe with for example the magic-pass. Smaller resorts probably can't afford not to be part of it? I don't like it : though it's not necessarily all entierly bad news for skiers.
The key here is the “small” part!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
As somebody who travels to ski ...
it is not what Vail pass does, great value for most that purchase pass.
It is gouging on everything else (accommodation, food, parking, rental car, tips, airfare, ski rental, lessons, lockers and whatever else is sold in CA and CO ...) I personally don't find value in this model. I know, Vail does not control many of those costs.
Some people do find this model beneficial and I am glad for them, being "local" and skiing 20+ days on Epic Pass - sign me up !
In the meantime I find much better value for my skiing budget in Europe and do my spring skiing in NA (conditions in April are just amazing) when there are good deals to be found.
Anyone who takes someone to learn at a resort like Vail and then complains about the cost needs an uppercut
You are a moron, most probably a selfish moron
You want to ski there
Go another time , on your own, ski the poo-poo out of it
Well known resorts does not equal best instructors and best terrain to learn on
Ahem Niseko
Absolutely
Hokkaido is a great place to learn to ski with fantastic piste conditions which are refreshed almost daily.
Niseko used to be good value for money.
Not anymore. It's expensive.
And it's busy.
There are far better options on Hokkaido at a fraction of the Niseko price.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Interesting article. Just back from Club Med in France ar busiest and most expensive week of the year, and I was blown away how many Americans were there, not like anything I've seen in the past. I'm told Americans love it. Club Med is expensive but I can understand how this represents excellent value for an American family, for what rarely fails to deliver as a superb holiday, complete with free esf lessons/guiding.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Interesting
Indicative price if you have it please
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
gixxerniknik wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, I've done two week long trips long haul, anything less is a bit silly really. NA/Canada sliding is different to Europe but now you can have 3 weeks in Espace Killy or 3 valleys easily for 2 weeks in NA or Canada, throw in guiding or lessons and it's a no brainer for me. Shame cos I love Fernie and Revelstoke.
Were they trips of 2 weeks duration or 2 trips of a weeks duration?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@peanuthead, errr, the lessons aren't "free" ... someone's paid for them ... probably you ...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Just visited one of my kids in Canada who is instructing there and who was saying it’s not uncommon to get kids for multi day private bookings worth $5k, and the biggest one this year was around $60k.
There’s plenty of money out there to spend on skiing. Even at home for me, I meet people every season who are $50k plus on heli time and travel each year and couldn’t care less about paying full in season price for a season pass. There’s a lodge down the road that charges $30k a night and it’s fully booked for months. Plenty of average looking people have got the money to spend.
I played the dirtbag card and got free passes for everywhere I went in Canada and borrowed a car Cheap as. Thought the motels were decent value for money.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
If you think subsidizing season pass holders by ripping off families is a cool move then that’s fine
As I said, I don't care as long as my lift pass is cheap. Yes it's a completely self-centred view as someone with no kids and lots of time. My n American ski friends have all massively benefited from epic and iKON. But they are 50+ day per year ski enthusiasts, not a family looking for a week holiday with some skiing.
I don't think it's a particularly unusual model. Look at any holiday accommodation prices during and out of school holidays! I'm sure nobody without kids would rather pay more for their mid January ski trip to bring down the costs during school holidays!
If I go down to my leisure centre for a one of swim my cost is about 4x what my triathlete friends with monthly membership pay per session. Again a case where the infrequent user is helping subsidise the "season passes". Vail are really not really doing anything not already done.
If Vail ski school was empty you maybe would have a point. But clearly there is demand at the price they charge. So why not charge it. As pointed out above if you are looking to learn to ski on the cheap you don't go to vail! It's a bit like me needing a new watch and complaining when the ones on the Rolex shop are a bit expensive
Quote:
Reality being, much larger percentage of Americans live near snow. So skiing on multiple weekends are the norm thanks to proximity.
Yes, it's something that many euros don't seem to get. Not only do they live close but they are willing to drive distances that most Brits (me included!) probably would consider unreasonable for a day or two skiing.
Also the attitude is different. A big generalisation but for a bigger percentage of Americans skiing is a "hobby" whereas for many Brits is a "holiday". So like a cyclist in UK may go out riding at weekends locally then do a trip away somewhere for a week - lots of Americans will ski their local hill regularly and then do one trip "out west" to ski one of the more famous resorts. What Vail/iKON have done well is attach their passes to these local resorts - if your local hill is an epic resort you will almost certainly pick another epic resort for your trip so you don't have to buy a lift pass. Perhaps it almost works as a justification - I'm not paying for the lift pass so if I have to pay top $ for everything else it's still ok. Also as pointed out salaries can be a lot higher in USA than UK.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@hang11I see the same thing in Zermatt. Chalets for 70k/week and such like. However, whilst there are some for whom these sums are trivial it's clearly not the majority. As was already mentioned in the thread these cost levels are unsustainable for families or young adults just joining the workforce and, unless those people get to ski, there will not be much of a future for skiing.
As an impecunious young adult I used to ski with the UCPA in France, travelling there in a coach (never again - I'm 6'2" and it was excruciatingly uncomfortable) with a similar group. It was very basic but, critically, also cheap.
I think the 'problem' with VR is that their motivation is clearly to grow revenues and deliver value for shareholders. They are not going to invest in the future of skiing because it's a 20+ year investment and the current executives will be long gone by then. The European model where the resort is owned by the commune means that, for them, it is worth such an investment and it's also something that the local population support.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Vails business model is generally a good one. They have dissociated skier days with revenue by making season passes look like good value - their spend per customer will be higher.
For a ski company to be making returns to shareholders is kind of a new concept in the ski industry! And one many other ski area operators would really love to be able to do as well.
Where they have failed is at PR. And now the successful model is backfiring a bit.
Never f@@k your staff or give the impression that you are. Simple really.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Bergmeister,
Quote:
Were they trips of 2 weeks duration or 2 trips of a weeks duration?
They were two trips each of two weeks duration.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
Reality being, much larger percentage of Americans live near snow. So skiing on multiple weekends are the norm thanks to proximity.
Yes, it's something that many euros don't seem to get. Not only do they live close but they are willing to drive distances that most Brits (me included!) probably would consider unreasonable for a day or two skiing.
Not “euros”, just Brits who don’t “get” it.
I bet Swiss/Austrian/French families, and to a lessor degree Dutch/Spaniard, are much more familiar with the concept of weekend skiing!
When I took the train from Zurich to the mountain on Saturday mornings (done it multiple times as I typically flew in on Friday evening landing at Zurich on Saturday morning), I met zoos of locals on the train, some for a single day of skiing others for a ski weekend. Spending a week at St Moritz, I noticed the weekends were a lot busier, with lots of Italians coming over, some from as far as Milan.
Quote:
for a bigger percentage of Americans skiing is a "hobby" whereas for many Brits is a "holiday". So like a cyclist in UK may go out riding at weekends locally then do a trip away somewhere for a week - lots of Americans will ski their local hill regularly and then do one trip "out west" to ski one of the more famous resorts.
It is the logical thing to do, for people living in close proximity to snowy mountains. It’s a winter hobby to do on a weekend just like taking a bicycle out for a ride in the summer!
Buy hey, it’s a perfect opportunity to take a cheap shot at Americans for their lack of annual leaves. Poor people who “had to” ski on weekends.
I’m not a big fan of Vail. Still, many of the complains here are way off target.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 18-03-25 2:03; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
How Vail Destroyed Skiing
The real reason skiing sucks now is because two companies—Vail & Alterra—control the entire sport. They’ve jacked up day passes at Park City by 263% since 2011. Now you get packed trails, pricey meals, and an empty wallet… and execs get rich.
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More Perfect Union’s mission is to build power for working people. Here’s what that means:
We report on the real struggles and challenges of the working class from a working-class perspective, and we attempt to connect those problems to potential solutions.
We report on the abuses and wrongdoing of corporate power, and we seek to hold accountable the ultra-rich who have too much power over America’s political and economic systems.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@abc, “Not “euros”, just Brits who don’t “get” it.”
Indeed. We used to do Engelberg late season… weekends were always busy, and if it has snowed…. Not quite Whistler level queues, but clearly a lot of ‘locals’ were making use of their adjacency….
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Cheap as. Thought the motels were decent value for money.
others for a ski weekend. Spending a week at St Moritz, I noticed the weekends were a lot busier, with lots of Italians coming over, some from as far as Milan.
