 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kind of old news (from January, right after the Park City strike finally ended)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I found it interesting and it strikes fear into me that they will make even more acquisitions in Europe. Skiers won’t be the ones to benefit if they do!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Great video. Or must I call it a "tiktok" ?
I wonder if Vail's model would work in Europe? As it seems to rely on the fully vertically integrated hotel and restaurant part of its model quite heavily. Not to mention ski schools.
I know that they have bought the Andermatt lift company but are there any other examples? Crans Montana maybe IIRC?
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Lists CM in the original article.
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| Quote: |
Skiers won’t be the ones to benefit if they do!
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It will benefit skiers who do lots of days and want cheap passes that cover multiple resorts.
This year a week's pass for Tignes is £362. A season epic local pass was £578. One gets you 6 days at Tignes, the other gets you a whole season at multiple resorts. I know which one strikes me as *much* better value.
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@boarder2020, this is just one aspect of the whole picture though. The very high prices of lessons (but poor instructor pay), lodging, and the return of vast sums to shareholders rather than reinvesting in resort infrastructure for example.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
How does a family ski in the US?!?! |
Yet season passes have never been cheaper....
Basically the "Vail" cost model is pushing anyone who skis to buy a season pass. Even if that alienates holiday makers and first timers. Kind of makes sense : irrespective if it snows or not the ski area still makes money. The problem seems to be that certain ski areas are getting busier and more crowded as result.
Already we are seeing similar pricing in Europe with for example the magic-pass. Smaller resorts probably can't afford not to be part of it? I don't like it : though it's not necessarily all entierly bad news for skiers.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 24-02-25 11:13; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@BobinCH, Total madness!
There is plenty of evidence on r/skiing the the yanks are just coming to Europe instead now as it is cheaper for them to cross the Atlantic.
For comparison, my daughter had 3 private half day lessons for the price in you image on our trip last week to Val Thorens. And it cost something like 90 Euro's for boots and skis for the week for the adults that rented.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
How does a family ski in the US?!?! |
Yet season passes have never been cheaper....
Basically the "Vail" cost model is pushing anyone who skis to buy a season pass. Even if that alienates holiday makers and first timers. Kind of makes sense : irrespective if it snows or not the ski area still makes money. The problem seems to be that certain ski areas are getting busier and more crowded as result.
Already we are seeing similar pricing in Europe with for example the magic-pass. Smaller resorts probably can't afford not to be part of it? I don't like it : though it's not necessarily all entierly bad news for skiers. |
You’re missing the point. I’m not talking about the lift pass.
$3000 to put your 7 year old in ski lessons for a week is outrageous!
$6k for 2 kids! For group lessons?!?! And for an instructor they pay what $300 a day? WTF?
That is price gouging to an incredible scale and leaving family skiing in the reach of only the very rich.
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And of course I forgot the 20% tip…
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You know it makes sense.
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@Haggis_Trap, Magic Pass is entirely different business model. No comparison.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Inboard wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, Magic Pass is entirely different business model. No comparison. |
It's the same business model that pushes casual skiers towards purchasing cheap autumnal season pass (even if they might only ski 5 days a year).
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Poster: A snowHead
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@BobinCH, Vail is one of the premier resorts in USA. I suspect it's very much supply and demand - if people are willing to pay that much why not charge it. If you want to learn to ski there are plenty of smaller less expensive resorts where you would probably look to if cost is an issue. For what it's worth some of the smaller Vail resorts have group lessons at around $100. But I think lessons in USA are more expensive in general than Europe - look at the premier resorts not owned by Vail like jackson hole and aspen they are charging around $350 for a place in group lessons.
Also in the world of n America skiing the sticker price is often not what you actually pay. If you have an epic pass and book in advance you will almost certainly get some discounts. Same as window day pass rates - only those rich enough to not care or stupid enough to not organise in advance pay those prices.
@abricotine, I admit it's a very self-centred view but i don't actually care. As long as I get cheap lift passes it doesn't bother me. I don't have a problem with rich tourists subsidising those of us that want to do lots of days.
| Quote: |
That is price gouging to an incredible scale and leaving family skiing in the reach of only the very rich.
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It makes sense after all that's the clientele they want. No different to designer labels putting sky high prices to make the product even more luxurious and desirable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@BobinCH, In fact it seems very short term ist. If no one can afford to learn to ski, tomorrow's consumers might not even return?
My mental model is that families are probably the biggest spenders on the slopes too (no direct evidence of this, just what I would think is likely). I'm far more likely to sit down to lunch with my family than if I'm just on my own.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| BobinCH wrote: |
$3000 to put your 7 year old in ski lessons for a week is outrageous!
$6k for 2 kids! For group lessons?!?! And for an instructor they pay what $300 a day? WTF?
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Fully agree : those particular prices are just offensive. Have no idea how / who is paying. Though all over the world ski schools have exploited low grade (low pay) instructors to deliver marked up kids lessons for decades.
Fwiw: My own perspective on ski schools biased by fact my kids have never been to one (Though we are not atypical punters : they goto regular race training on dry matt and I enjoy skiing with them myself).
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 24-02-25 11:51; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It seems short-sighted to me.
It works out very cheap for relatively wealthy, retired people who can ski a lot (=get good value from a season pass), can choose when they go, don't need tuition/gear, and aren't fussed about slopeside accommodation. Great, but this is a declining population if you don't bring younger people in.
It works out very expensive for families (need tuition and gear) or younger people with limited holidays. The next generation of skiers.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Also in the world of n America skiing the sticker price is often not what you actually pay. |
Nope, as Bob says, it's 30% more once you allow for tips and taxes.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Inboard wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, Magic Pass is entirely different business model. No comparison. |
It's the same business model that pushes casual skiers towards purchasing cheap autumnal season pass (even if they might only ski 5 days a year). |
Not really. If I am geographically convenient to the Valais, a. I'd probably ski more than 5 days and b. if the discounted season pass is cheaper than 5 single days, it's a no brainer.
But Epic/Ikon and their pricing model sees walk up day passes north of, what?, $300? I realise that there are ways around it but it's crazy.
Also vertically integrated resorts where e.g. Vail owns literally everything from the petrol pumps upwards.
Very different model, IMV. Not easily workable as a concept in Europe (Andermatt excepted, which I think has been bought lock stock and barrel). Other than adding Euro resorts on the passes.
We have loads of americans in Chamonix ... I'm unconvinced it's an improvement. Although they do spend their $$$s
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| snowdave wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
Also in the world of n America skiing the sticker price is often not what you actually pay. |
Nope, as Bob says, it's 30% more once you allow for tips and taxes. |
Vail offered a 3 days for the price of 2 learn to ski course for first timers this season. So straight away you are talking about a price 33% lower than sticker price of 3 1 day lessons.
If you have an epic pass (even a day pass - which you would require for lessons) you get 20% off rentals and lessons.
Vail day pass window price - $329, but you could buy epic day passes for around $123 pre season.
I suspect the number of people on any day at vail that paid the top sticker price (that people love to quote online!) for anything is pretty small. And for those that did money is probably not an issue!
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 24-02-25 12:31; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Seppo's rarely improve much.
I'll give them velcro (at a push)....
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Inboard wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, Magic Pass is entirely different business model. No comparison. |
It's the same business model that pushes casual skiers towards purchasing cheap autumnal season pass (even if they might only ski 5 days a year). |
Not really. If I am geographically convenient to the Valais, a. I'd probably ski more than 5 days and b. if the discounted season pass is cheaper than 5 single days, it's a no brainer.
But Epic/Ikon and their pricing model sees walk up day passes north of, what?, $300? I realise that there are ways around it but it's crazy.
Also vertically integrated resorts where e.g. Vail owns literally everything from the petrol pumps upwards.
Very different model, IMV. Not easily workable as a concept in Europe (Andermatt excepted, which I think has been bought lock stock and barrel). Other than adding Euro resorts on the passes.
We have loads of americans in Chamonix ... I'm unconvinced it's an improvement. Although they do spend their $$$s |
I am not defending Vail.... However it is a general reality of modern ski world that season passes are becoming cheaper (...at cost of higher walk up price for day pass).
Chamonix no different these days. Buying day pass online with dynamic pricing is noticeable cheaper than going to the window at Grand Montets.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
I suspect the number of people on any day at vail that paid the top sticker price (that people love to quote online!) for anything is pretty small. And for those that did money is probably not an issue! |
Agree.... I preferred simplicity that you went to the window and bought a day pass on a wicket. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that anymore.
Skiing has become more expensive (in general) for holiday makers buying single tickets on day. The only saving grace is that season tickets (or dynamic pricing in advance) generally costs less
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Selecting a random week day in April (April 9) an adult ski lesson at vail is $183 or $224 for half or full day with the epic pass discount (as said above if you planned ahead you would have epic day passes so get the discount).
Same date and same lesson type (beginner adult) is $298 at aspen or $250 at Jackson hole. Yet Vail get all the hate?
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| Quote: |
Agree.... I preferred simplicity that you went to the window and bought a day pass on a wicket. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that anymore.
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It certainly would be more simple!
I do find it amusing that on snowheads you can discuss when the easy jet flights will be released as it's completely normalised to have to get them immediately to get the best price. Yet the same concept for buying lift passes is a completely alien concept that people seemingly hate.
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowdave wrote: |
It seems short-sighted to me.
It works out very cheap for relatively wealthy, retired people who can ski a lot (=get good value from a season pass), can choose when they go, don't need tuition/gear, and aren't fussed about slopeside accommodation. Great, but this is a declining population if you don't bring younger people in.
It works out very expensive for families (need tuition and gear) or younger people with limited holidays. The next generation of skiers. |
This basically. But then as a listed Corp the execs are only concerned with bolstering the short term stock price and making hay while they can. They'll have cashed out before the consumer downturn really happens.
In fact Rob Katz before he stepped down as CEO probably pumped stock price to the max and left a legacy where the flaws in the operating model ( like screw patrollers on payrises) are really being exposed and noticed. The Park City strike making national news was a disaster for their brand.
I think no one cares enough. I was in Tahoe over Xmas and skiing at Vail resorts. Plenty of Asian families ( both SE Asian and Indian subcontinent heritage) wealthy enough with Bay Area tech pay putting their kids through those spendy lessons. Cybertrucks and Rivians parked in the lots. Kids sitting with $30+ chicken nuggs and chips they barely pick at. $25 to park unless you have a full car.
Vail obviously happy to drink at full pressure from the money hose.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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[quote="Dave of the Marmottes"]
| snowdave wrote: |
The Park City strike making national news was a disaster for their brand.
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There was a main anchor on CNBC absolutely roasting Vail resorts on live TV after he got to Park city during the strike before they told any of the public. "How can these guys run a company like this...mismanaged...short this stock now...." It was good viewing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
However it is a general reality of modern ski world that season passes are becoming cheaper (...at cost of higher walk up price for day pass).
Chamonix no different these days. Buying day pass online with dynamic pricing is noticeable cheaper than going to the window at Grand Montets.
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I'm not arguing for the sake of it, but I haven't seen Chamonix season passes getting any cheaper over the last 25 years! typically alternates between 4% and 7% uplift each year (exc. c-19).
Buying online with dynamic pricing is not generally that much cheaper, cheap passes very limited in number and need purchasing quite well in advance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
I suspect the number of people on any day at vail that paid the top sticker price (that people love to quote online!) for anything is pretty small. And for those that did money is probably not an issue! |
Or alternately as one college kid I once talked to on a chair, you get invited to stay at a friend's uncle's condo but can only afford to buy 1 pass for the 3 days you are there.
The day pass price is a trap for the unwary/unbovvered. I assume it makes people buy an epic pass for the next season or alternately Jack in skiing until they have more cash.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Yet Vail get all the hate? |
Maybe bleating on about guest experience while shafting your punters with closures due to staff strikes, ripoff lessons/equipment and big lift queues comes with consequences?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Epic Australia season pass seems to work well for them. Use the pass in the Oz resorts, then to NA or Europe for the Southern summer.
Each season on ski.com.au posters ask about skiing in the Alps to max out their Epic days or to ski 3-4 countries in a fortnight trip. They always need a bit of expectation management on getting around between resorts.
I understand that in some resorts you gave to use specific accommodation to be able to use your Epic pass. Bet it's not the cheapest accommodation in resort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@BobinCH, and you thought the guides in St Anton were expensive 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I like the information. I hate the way it's presented. Clearly TikTok is not for me. Nor I for TikTok!
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Yet Vail get all the hate? |
Maybe bleating on about guest experience while shafting your punters with closures due to staff strikes, ripoff lessons/equipment and big lift queues comes with consequences? |
I think it is fairly universally accepted among cynical passholders that their tagine "Experience of a lifetime" omits the opening "Enshittified customer". I will say they have got better at providing reusable water cups though rather than the crappy acorn sized paper cones they used to use to "nudge" customers into buying a $5 fountain fizzy pop.
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I totally get the big companies wanting the security of selling lots of season tickets, but with the price increases it really makes no sense for any European to go to the USA to ski now. Last time I went was 2016, great time we had but even then lessons/guiding was too expensive and now the whole holiday is just way too pricey. I'll stay in Europe thanks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Yet Vail get all the hate? |
Maybe bleating on about guest experience while shafting your punters with closures due to staff strikes, ripoff lessons/equipment and big lift queues comes with consequences? |
People were criticising the cost of Vail lessons, when it looks like they are pretty much just consistent with other similar resorts pricing.
On one hand Vail is too expensive. On the other hand lift lines are too long? It sounds like a bit of a contradiction.
According to Google Vail ski instructor average salary = $41k, national average ski instructor salary = $38k. Again, looks like Vail is in line with average if not slightly better.
The park city patrollers were not exactly being exploited either. The new recruits were already on above national median hourly wage.
As I said before, it's a selfish view, but I really don't care as long as they give cheap multi resort season passes. They are a business and I fully expect them to try to maximise profit however they can and I don't really see a problem with that.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Yet Vail get all the hate? |
Maybe bleating on about guest experience while shafting your punters with closures due to staff strikes, ripoff lessons/equipment and big lift queues comes with consequences? |
I think it is fairly universally accepted among cynical passholders that their tagine "Experience of a lifetime" omits the opening "Enshittified customer". I will say they have got better at providing reusable water cups though rather than the crappy acorn sized paper cones they used to use to "nudge" customers into buying a $5 fountain fizzy pop. |
Now I understand what what she meant when she said:
«We’re not always perfect, but we do listen and we do take action and we do try to make investments back to improve the guest experience,” said Lynch, who has been Vail’s CEO for three years, after 10 years as its chief marketing officer. A lifelong skier, she previously worked in marketing at PepsiCo and Kraft Foods
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FAQ
