 Poster: A snowHead
|
| brianatab wrote: |
| People are responsible for themselves. If they choose to get out of their skins and have a fatal accident, (could just as easily walk under a bus on a Friday night at home) then they suffer the consequences. |
No argument from me on that point. I believe in an individual’s right, as an autonomous adult, to make choices which may result in negative consequences.
| brianatab wrote: |
| It may be hard for relatives and friends, but that's life, and no sympathy from me for the victim. |
Here we diverge. As someone who admits to having made risky and unwise choices, but fortunately and luckily avoided such negative consequences, I still have a lot of sympathy for the victim.
Just because someone is, to a greater or lesser extent, the author of their own misfortune doesn’t, surely, remove all sympathy ?
Did you eat too much and are now suffering from Diabetes ? No sympathy for you ??
Were you a marathon runner and are now severely arthritic ? No sympathy for you ??
Were you a smoker and now have lung cancer ? No sympathy for you ??
Did you over indulge your children and now they feel entitled to sell your home from under you ? No sympathy for you ??
Did you choose to go skiing and now have a torn ACL ? No sympathy for you ??
Did you choose to race in the Isle of Man TT and died ? No sympathy for you ??
I profess no religion but I do think the bible got it rather right on this one … “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
From my perspective, my sympathies go out to the victim, his family and friends and the emergency services and others affected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@leggyblonde, agreed dude
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| munich_irish wrote: |
I thought that in France the pistes were closed at around 17:00 and piste side bars had to close before then? Not familiar with Avoriaz (it will have changed since 1990!) so maybe the bar is in town but near pistes?
In Austria the pistes are closed between 18:00 to 08:00 with lots of signs to that effect, anyone using them between those hours is going to get a minimum of a long lecture from the piste patrol or police. Clearly there are a few well known exceptions eg St Anton but there the run back from the Krazy Kangaruh, Mooserwirt etc is short and only just above the village (even so there have been sad accidents). No piste bashers on this small area until 21:00. I have noticed this year that one of the restaurants at the mid station with a sunny terrace has signs up "Terrace / bar closed at 16:00", "last run at 16:30" assume that is enforced too. |
I was trying to work this out too. The piste towards the Super Morzine lift has barriers that go across it where you go through the tunnel at the back of the Amara apartments. I’m staying there now and, from memory, this is usually at about 5.00pm. You could obviously still go under the barrier easily, but you still need to take another lift (Seraussaix) before then skiing down further to the Super Morzine. It’s a hell of a walk down if you miss that lift though. I’m not sure what time they would shut the run to Prodains, but, even if they put the barriers up, you could conceivably make a choice to ski down, knowing that you could at least get that far and sort out a taxi from that point. There’s also the possibility that he fell off the cliff in the town, if he wasn’t actually attempting to ski down from here.
It’s all guesswork though, someone has paid the ultimate price and that’s sad no matter what led them there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
What a horrendous accident. Poor bloke. Huge amount of sympathy for him and all those he leaves behind. RIP.
No need to say anything else IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
RIP, poor bloke and horribly tragic at such an age.
To have no sympathy for someone paying the ultimate price through misadventure, probably more youthful naivity than negligence, is shockingly self-righteous and should be called out, ad hominem or not.
To not behave like a dick at least once when you're 21 suggests an extraordinarily sheltered life.
There but for the grace of better luck, go many of us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Nice to see some basic human decency on this thread, some of the comments so far have been deplorable, haven’t they Brian 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
"victim blaming" is usually used more like "contributory negligence", as a way to deflect responsibility from the perpetrator.
|
Exactly. Like saying that a scantily clad girl who got raped was "asking for it".
I do feel that some drunks could justifiably be thrown into the cells (or out of A & E). But there must be a limit beyond which society should not be expected take on responsibility to save people from themselves, as in some of @brianatab's suggestions about confiscating skeys etc, |
I am confused by this. How is it comparable to blaming a scantily clad girl? Do you mean that such a girl should indeed bear some responsibility if sexually assaulted? It sort of reads like that, but is not what I would expect you to say tbh.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Knowing him a little, I don’t think @brianatab is a horrible individual, but may just be suffering from compassion fatigue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
It's a good job none of us drink eh?
Poor lad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| porkpiefox wrote: |
| I was trying to work this out too. The piste towards the Super Morzine lift has barriers that go across it where you go through the tunnel at the back of the Amara apartments. I’m staying there now and, from memory, this is usually at about 5.00pm. You could obviously still go under the barrier easily, but you still need to take another lift (Seraussaix) before then skiing down further to the Super Morzine. It’s a hell of a walk down if you miss that lift though. I’m not sure what time they would shut the run to Prodains, but, even if they put the barriers up, you could conceivably make a choice to ski down, knowing that you could at least get that far and sort out a taxi from that point. There’s also the possibility that he fell off the cliff in the town, if he wasn’t actually attempting to ski down from here.. |
This is mentioned in the OP
| Quote: |
| A source added that police believe he may have taken a wrong turn and took his skis off before falling to his death. |
So my speculative guesses, not knowing which cliff he fell from would be
1. Trying to get back to Super M, went down Proclou but couldn't get far because Séraussaix wasn't running, went into the woods behind Séraussaix thinking he could continue round the mountain but that way leads to the cliffs.
2. Trying to get back to Prodains, since that is a piste I think the cliffs will be well protected and there are only really cliffs right at the top near the lift station, but maybe he did something innocuous like take his skis off to go for a wee wee and fell
3. Less likely but maybe he was just trying to get to his apartment and fell, doesn't have to be from the big cliff that Avoiraz is perched on top of, it could be a smaller fall in the resort.
I think 1 is most likely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@brianatab, @KSH, I'm sorry for you both that you've lead such mundane lives and missed out on so much joy, fun and excitement. Sincerely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| bouquetin wrote: |
So my speculative guesses, not knowing which cliff he fell from would be
1. Trying to get back to Super M, went down Proclou but couldn't get far because Séraussaix wasn't running, went into the woods behind Séraussaix thinking he could continue round the mountain but that way leads to the cliffs.
2. Trying to get back to Prodains, since that is a piste I think the cliffs will be well protected and there are only really cliffs right at the top near the lift station, but maybe he did something innocuous like take his skis off to go for a wee wee and fell
3. Less likely but maybe he was just trying to get to his apartment and fell, doesn't have to be from the big cliff that Avoiraz is perched on top of, it could be a smaller fall in the resort.
I think 1 is most likely. |
Yes, I think you're probably right.
Just a point about your option 2 though - unless I've got something seriously wrong there is no access to ski the Prodains area from the village level, you need to take a drag or chair lift to be able to access it, given that the Folies bar is on the far side of the village. To think that he could access it would imply more knowledge of the area than is apparent from the rest of the story. Possible, I guess, but I think once you're past the lift station there are no more cliffs of that sort of height.
Oh, and on option 3 - it was reported that he'd fallen over 150m and was found at the base of the cliff on which Avoriaz is built; so yes, that big cliff is the only one that matches the report.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| zikomo wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
"victim blaming" is usually used more like "contributory negligence", as a way to deflect responsibility from the perpetrator.
|
Exactly. Like saying that a scantily clad girl who got raped was "asking for it"...
, |
I am confused by this. .... |
Yes, you're confused... or just being deliberately obtuse? It doesn't read anything like that. It's a comment on what is victim blaming and that it isn't usually used to describe what you refered to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Oh hi @motyl, been a while! Catch ya soon I hope
| motyl wrote: |
| Knowing him a little, I don’t think @brianatab is a horrible individual, but may just be suffering from compassion fatigue. |
an example of how we all do daft things at some point(s) in our life and maybe don't deserve condemning forever for it perhaps:D
still Brian, time to leave the keyboard alone and go touch grass:D
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@adithorp, Yes I am confused, that is why I said I am confused. What is your point about that? That I don't know I am confused (despite saying that I am)?
I simply asked politely for clarification. Weird that you object to that, or interject yourself at all for that matter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| zikomo wrote: |
@adithorp, Yes I am confused, that is why I said I am confused. What is your point about that? That I don't know I am confused (despite saying that I am)?
I simply asked politely for clarification. Weird that you object to that, or interject yourself at all for that matter. |
yeeezus:D
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@zikomo, I suspect its bafflement that you could possibly be confused by a statement where the meaning is glaringly obvious, but you say you are so there you go
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@jjams82, @holidayloverxx, Two more objections to a simple question and an admission that I was a bit confused?
What exactly is your problem?
I am happy to be put straight, which is why I asked the question. In fact I want to be put straight, which is why I asked the question. And why I also said my reading seemed out of kilter with what I know of the character of the poster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| bouquetin wrote: |
So my speculative guesses, not knowing which cliff he fell from would be
1. Trying to get back to Super M, went down Proclou but couldn't get far because Séraussaix wasn't running, went into the woods behind Séraussaix thinking he could continue round the mountain but that way leads to the cliffs.
2. Trying to get back to Prodains, since that is a piste I think the cliffs will be well protected and there are only really cliffs right at the top near the lift station, but maybe he did something innocuous like take his skis off to go for a wee wee and fell
3. Less likely but maybe he was just trying to get to his apartment and fell, doesn't have to be from the big cliff that Avoiraz is perched on top of, it could be a smaller fall in the resort.
I think 1 is most likely. |
Yes, I think you're probably right.
Just a point about your option 2 though - unless I've got something seriously wrong there is no access to ski the Prodains area from the village level, you need to take a drag or chair lift to be able to access it, given that the Folies bar is on the far side of the village. To think that he could access it would imply more knowledge of the area than is apparent from the rest of the story. Possible, I guess, but I think once you're past the lift station there are no more cliffs of that sort of height.
Oh, and on option 3 - it was reported that he'd fallen over 150m and was found at the base of the cliff on which Avoriaz is built; so yes, that big cliff is the only one that matches the report. |
It is possible to ski from Folie Douce down the green run past the arrival of the Prodains gondola and then down Crot which will eventually lead to Prodains - all downhill once you clip on skis out side FD.
Sad tale whatever happened
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Mollerski wrote: |
| @brianatab, @KSH, I'm sorry for you both that you've lead such mundane lives and missed out on so much joy, fun and excitement. Sincerely. |
Wtf are you talking about? All I wrote/implied was that there seemed to be a lot of mistakes all at once . And I certainly didn't say I wasn't sorry or that I never drink/drank or make/made mistakes. So why don't you wind your bloody rude neck in. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@jjams82, take no notice, he's always like that. Probably means no ill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| zikomo wrote: |
@jjams82, @holidayloverxx, Two more objections to a simple question and an admission that I was a bit confused?
What exactly is your problem?
|
No problem, it's not an objection to your question, I'm as baffled as others by your confusion as much as you appear to be by the statement. Neither of us can help that. But it's not an objection to your question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| KSH wrote: |
| @jjams82, take no notice, he's always like that. Probably means no ill. |
Yes. Seems you are predictable also. I am sure you also mean no ill, it is just the way you are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@zikomo, congratulations on your last word.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| zikomo wrote: |
@jjams82, @holidayloverxx, Two more objections to a simple question and an admission that I was a bit confused?
What exactly is your problem?
I am happy to be put straight, which is why I asked the question. In fact I want to be put straight, which is why I asked the question. And why I also said my reading seemed out of kilter with what I know of the character of the poster. |
honestly, I'm pretty confused now too, no idea where you stand, I'm just a bratty sub right now needing a good spanking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| KSH wrote: |
| @zikomo, congratulations on your last word. |
"are" is one of my fav's too 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
@zikomo, this is a thread about an incident where someone died. It's not somewhere for you to pick petty fights again. Show some fecking respect!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@adithorp, you make me realise I'm not helping either tbh. I appreciate that, and I'm gonna shut up and stop poking the bear.
rest in peace that dude, whoever he is
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@jjams82, same here
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
for sure it was not between the bar and the village; nor could anyone ski down from there to Morzine or even Prodains after the lifts are shut
|
You couldn't get to the top of Zore or download on super morzine after last lifts, but you very much can slide off down from the Follie all the way to Prodains via Boulevarde and Crot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Only just catching up with this. My own, terribly ordinary and (I would have thought) uncontentious example of "victim blaming" was the contention that what a victim was wearing had a bearing on a rape case. There has been such a huge amount of debate on this point (in the context of the very low rate of convictions for rape) that I thought anyone reading it would be aware of the background.
A random Google turned up this definition of a "victim" from the Humberside police code.
a person who has suffered harm, including physical, mental or emotional harm or economic loss which was directly caused by a criminal offence
The man who fell down a cliff was not (as far as we know....) a "victim" under this definition. His death is entirely explained by his own actions. He got drunk, then decided to try to ski down. It was a horrible, but not in the circumstances unpredictable, accident. I said that his actions were foolish, which is true. The fact that these foolish actions caused his death doesn't render it inadmissible to say so! Nor does saying so imply that we've never done anything foolish ourselves.
I hope this helps clear up any confusion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@Origen, You chose a definition from a very random source to justify your (ill-judged) comments.
Say you were to have chosen a much more respected source, such as the Cambridge University Press English Dictionary, you would have had:
"someone or something that has been hurt, damaged, or killed or has suffered, either because of the actions of someone or something else, or because of illness or chance"
No need for a crime to be committed. The poor guy is clearly a victim (of chance in this case) and you are literally blaming him.
| Quote: |
The fact that these foolish actions caused his death
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| DJL wrote: |
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| unless I've got something seriously wrong there is no access to ski the Prodains area from the village level, |
It is possible to ski from Folie Douce down the green run past the arrival of the Prodains gondola and then down Crot which will eventually lead to Prodains - all downhill once you clip on skis out side FD.
|
| MHskier wrote: |
you very much can slide off down from the Follie all the way to Prodains via Boulevarde and Crot.
|
So clearly I was mistaken, thanks for clearing that up. Somehow that bit of the piste is always behind me whatever direction I've been going in - just never noticed it.
Although the other suggestion is still much more likely, given the height of the fall.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
They were saying "same cliff as back in 2018", when the fatality was somewhere off TK Baron (i.e. towards SuperMorzine). I don't really understand what could have happened as one needs to cross the road - unless they head back towards the tunnel and somehow miss Seraussaix/Proclou. On Crot, and especially Boulevard des skieurs, the chasm is obvious. So I'm not sure how it looks like on the Proclou/Zore, GMaps says there are trees all the way along that cliff, I assume there are also signs and nets?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Yes Google street view shows a lot of netting and the cliff is as sheer as any I’ve seen. All we can really assume is that this unfortunate holiday maker did not intentionally go where he ended up and we, the well-informed survivors of our own mistakes, can only continue to speculate how it came about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Some people just never know when to stop, do they? I am talking about making one or more possible mistakes in a given set of circumstances,victimhood in whatever myriad of valid meanings you choose (I mean seriously, who cares?) feeling sorry that someone has died young while ostensibly enjoying themselves (seems strange not to be sorry, but so be it). It is perfectly obvious that all these things, including my own thoughtless contribution which I have said I regret, are causing anger and upset to participants in the thread and potentially to the family and friends of the deceased. So why oh why keep going on and on? I suppose it's OK to discuss the topography of Avoriaz, though personally I'm not sure I see the point: presumably the facts will emerge in due course.
For the love of God can people please desist arguing. Please. Sorry to repeat myself, I know I've already asked a few times; I do believe in open discussion but much of this is just so toxic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@leggyblonde, OK. By that definition we are all "victims" but I don't see that as a helpful way of thinking about life. The language of "blame" belongs with my police definition, because they need to find out who is "to blame". But I find it odd to feel that there is somebody to "blame" for every death. To attribute a reason for a death is not the same as attributing blame. A Coroner would perhaps bring a verdict of "death by misadventure" rather than "accidental death". Would you be OK with that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| patrick! wrote: |
| They were saying "same cliff as back in 2018", when the fatality was somewhere off TK Baron (i.e. towards SuperMorzine). I don't really understand what could have happened as one needs to cross the road - unless they head back towards the tunnel and somehow miss Seraussaix/Proclou. On Crot, and especially Boulevard des skieurs, the chasm is obvious. So I'm not sure how it looks like on the Proclou/Zore, GMaps says there are trees all the way along that cliff, I assume there are also signs and nets? |
Pure speculation on my part but it is a very easy ski down to Proclou, and finding the Serrausaix lift closed a poor decision to track as far left as possible below the Route d'Avoriaz (to avoid walking up and under the tunnel) could lead into the trees near the cliff - that would also take you near the bottom of the Baron lift.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Great. Frankly, barrack room law upsets me too, quite a lot. But I accept that is a bit of a niche cause of distress.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| DJL wrote: |
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| unless I've got something seriously wrong there is no access to ski the Prodains area from the village level, |
It is possible to ski from Folie Douce down the green run past the arrival of the Prodains gondola and then down Crot which will eventually lead to Prodains - all downhill once you clip on skis out side FD.
|
| MHskier wrote: |
you very much can slide off down from the Follie all the way to Prodains via Boulevarde and Crot.
|
So clearly I was mistaken, thanks for clearing that up. Somehow that bit of the piste is always behind me whatever direction I've been going in - just never noticed it.
Although the other suggestion is still much more likely, given the height of the fall. |
As others have said you can easily access Crot from Follie, not only is it easy but from Follie closing time at around 5 there is a constant stream of people going that way. Some get Prodains down (you ski to the top station and it runs till late at night) but a lot of people also duck the rope and go down Crot even though it is closed. But I think that makes it even less likely that is the way he went because there would be people about.
And its further speculation but I can see a scenario where someone tells him it is easy to ski back (it is via Crot if you're not a beginner). He's not familiar with the resort (some people just never notice how to get around) and from Follie to get to Crot you need to go left down Boulevard, if you go right then you end up on Proclou which up there is just a wide open snow front rather than a clear piste with obvious signs. Someone may even have said "ignore the closed sign, it's fine" because that is what a huge number of people do every evening down Crot. So he ducks the wrong rope and he's then at the bottom of Proclou, the only way that looks vaguely possible to ski is to go behind the Seraussaix lift, there is compacted snow as lifties have been walking back and forth, it looks like a path. And being a bit tipsy he makes a bad decision to try to go that way, empowered by people telling him it's easy, thinking he is still on the way to Prodains via Crot. He realises it isn't right, takes his skis off to try to find a way home but slips and falls.
Doesn't have to be someone who's got so hammered they can't even stand up or stop themselves falling of a cliff, just someone who had a few beers and made some confused decisions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
