the future of Scottish snowsports? (excluding Cairngorm)

A snowHead

I hope this doesn't become a thread where people (who have either never skied in Scotland, or did 20 years ago on a rainy windy day) pile hatred on the Scottish ski centres...

When the conditions are ok, I really enjoy Scottish skiing. I live 30 mins from Glenshee so can decide the night before to throw my board in the van and go. It isn't the alps and it isn't a place I would drive to from the South of England etc. For being right here on my doorstep, it can be fantastic.

However.. there is no doubt that since the very snowy covid winter, the following winters have been poor. Skier numbers have been well below average, electric + diesel costs rocketed and Glenshee, Lecht and Glencoe must be spending a fortune on running snowfactories to provide a beginners/sledging area.

Forget Cairngorm as it is finished for snowsports, where do you see the future in Scottish snowsports? (I very much hope it can survive).

Glenshee - no electric connection nearby, so relies on diesel generators which is massively expensive. I can't remember when even half of the area was open - last 2 years its mostly the plastic/dink dink with a week or 2 of butcharts + Cairnwell. Is that enough to keep the lights turned on?

Nevis Range - buiilt a hydro electric generator then sold it just before electric prices rocketed... Braverheart + Warrens rumoured to be past the point of repair. Bought an all weather snowmaker (similar to a snowfactory) but I don't know if it has ever been used. Spent loads on building a hotel, possibly to the detriment of snowsports. They have lost the UCI downhill mtb world cup and management don't seem very intrerested in snowsports. Not much (if any effort) goes in to pushing snow around to get lifts open.

Lecht - needed to crowdfund in Summer 2024 to survive until winter. Apart from one week, (when it was extremely busy) they have only had a small beginners area made of artificial snow. The windmill will help offset costs, but it isn't free - the electricity used to run the snowfactory will be electricity that isn't sold back to the grid for profit. Rarely open all the lifts - Harrier poma has been stripped for spare parts for other lifts. They seem to have a new Kassbohrer PB600 winch cat which is a very expemnsive bit of kit to pay for when there is little income.

Glencoe - seems to be the one that does the best (or at least tries the hardest). Does a decent summer trade and has a real 'can do' attitude. However the cost to rebuild the base cafe after the fire was apparently a lot more than the insurance payout and the new (to them) plateau chairlift must have been expensive to install.

In my 52 years of skiing/boarding in Scotland there have always been good, bad and terrible seasons. 70/80s were generally good, early to mid 90s bad, late noughties prety good again and now to terrible seasons.
The original Glenshee chairlift company didnt survive the poor seasons of the 90s to early 00s.

Can the centres keep their operating costs low enough to survive on patches of factory made snow, or are there big problems ahead?

In an ideal world better Snowmaking would help, however I understand that there are various factors that don't help -
- humidity,
-availability of water (the lecht have to pump water from a burn outwith the ski area, back over the ski hill into a holding tank to then pump it back up the hill to the hydrants since there is no decent water source up there!),
- lack of electrical capacity (or the cost of running generators),
- wind, which will blow canon made snow away before it even lands
- cost to install

The demand for skiing is definitely there - see the full car parks and queues when there is snow, however is a week or 2 of decent conditions per year enough?

Where do you see the future of Scottish snowsports? (not including Cairngorm)

A snowHead

Having skiid in Scotland multiple times from "darn Sarf" I agree that it's truly epic when conditions are good snowHead

, and still a great experience when marginal.

However I would imagine the costs & staffing/logistics of running a commercial skiing operation make it pretty much non-viable in these days of unreliable snow cover.

I wonder if running some of the snow sports activities on a club/volunteer basis may be practical, but I guess that HSE requirements would make this a non-starter Confused

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I really feel for Glenshee. It is a great area. But as you say almost never fully open, even when there is enough snow to be fully open which is very frustrating. I don't know what the right answer is, but not being able to open up properly when conditions allow is not a great outcome. We really need a few good winters to fill the coffers a bit, and for all the areas to diversify to get them through bad winters but some seem to be more focussed on the diversification activities than the skiing. It's a real shame.

Of course if we have spread the investment that went into the funicular at Cainrgorn around the other ski areas we would definitely be in a much better place.....

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I've skied in Scotland since 1988, driving between 500 and 600 miles each round trip to do so. Needless to say, I'm a massive fan. Each of the areas has its merits and Mrs MA and I have had great times at all of them. Last Sunday at Glencoe was great fun, despite the limited area that was open. Glencoe is to be commended for the efforts it makes.

Until the last few seasons, I would have said there would generally be enough snow lying somewhere (wind and weather permitting) to get some skiing in every week between late November and April. But no longer, unfortunately.

I'm hoping (against hope?) that it's all been a blip and we can get back to some decent seasons. Failing that, it's hard to see much of a positive future... Confused

I'm even thinking there is enough time yet this winter for some big snow storms and some decent ski days. Must go - off to continue the snow dances!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I'm surprised that Glenshee have survived the last few years, so little available. Seems like they have downsized to match the demand for their ski school, presumably surrounding schools are using the place during the week and that keeps them ticking over.

We are planning to head up for a half day next week to test out my wifes knee and don't expect much to be open.

Only living an hour and twenty minutes away should be fantastic in theory, but seldom visit due to the lack of snow.

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Had a season pass at Glencoe for 25 years (and skied / toured all over Scotland). There is no doubt that climate change is reality and winter "seasons" are getting less reliable. It can still snow : however we always seem to get savage warm spells between the cold snaps - which were never as prevalent in the past.

Ultimately skiing in Scotland has always been opportunistic activity. However post covid (where climate seems to have taken a step change for worse?) conditions have been the wrong side of marginal.

Having said all that - when it snows there is still huge enthusiasm for Scottish Snowsport. So I am not entirely pessimistic about the future. Especially if the resorts can find a way to make summer work (as Glencoe have successfully done with hobbit houses, cafe & biking). The internet and webcams have never made it easier to watch the conditions and go when it is good

Fingers crossed for snow....

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I reluctantly have to agree as a complete optimist. The weather trends are very different and the precipitation while there is more rain than snow. Pains me frankly.

After all it is free

@Haggis_Trap, sadly, I reckon I’m more pessimistic than you.
Born ‘68 and growing up in Elgin we had 2 ski hire shops in town. They also offered instruction if required.
There are none now. My mate Mike had the last snow, skate, surf shop in town. Despite all us locals buying everything from him, even down to non ski stuff, he had to fold.
Our school had a ski club where we were bussed to Aviemore every weekend with our teachers that could ski. The snow regularly reached the windows of the bus on the ski road up the hill.
One of my regular customers at work as a founding father of cairngorm, loved hearing all his stories of winches and dedication.
But it really isn’t like that anymore, and I don’t believe this is a blip in the weather.
Mightily chuffed to have rode in the era that I was lucky enough to… how many state schools have a ski club where you can bus to cairngorm every weekend?
Sadly I think we will be looking back fondly rather than looking forward expectantly.

I really did not start skiing in Scotland until 2002/2003. I just decided to go in a car with my skis on a roofrack when I saw snow falling. Got to Cairngorm, and there was just extreme wind and rain. Turned back and went home with my tails between my legs.

Bought a van, converted it to sleep in winter time, and jumped on the ferry from Rosyth to Zeebrugge in November 2003. Came back before Xmas and decided to look at weather forecasts in Scotland on the internet. Took the van to all of Scotland's ski resorts in 2003-2006 in between taking the ferry to Belgium and skiing in Europe.

After 2006, I realised that there was snow forecasts, and actual websites which told me when the ski resorts were open in Scotland. Made a few trips to Nevis range and Glenshee in a car when conditions were great. Just been rinsing and repeating since.

Sometimes I hired a car after I sold my car, and got rid of the van, just because I wanted to ski in Scotland for a few days.

Some years there are no opportunities for advanced skiers.

Some years I just hiked up the local hill with my skis on a backpack. Skied down and found another form of skiing I found highly satisfying. (very little actual skiing, but a lot of exercise and sunshine with snow)

Recently, my skiing has concentrated on Glencoe when the top lifts are open. Sadly, no luck this year so far. The lower slopes look dangerous for beginners this year, due to the low cover. It happens sometimes, some years are lean.

I have my skis sitting ready, my backpack full of ski stuff and boots ready to go. I do not see it happening, as the weather is going to get warmer before any snow comes.

I have other things to do. I am not dissapointed. It comes with the territory!

March sometimes brings big dumps, sometimes not. Still some hope....

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I think the average winter temperature has increased just enough to give more rain/sleet than snow and as said above, the large swings in temperature are melting the snow before it can consolidate. Freeze-thaw cycles helped create a solid base from drifted snow but the thaws are more intense now, leaving little to freeze.
A normal season at Glenshee used to see at least a 2 metre deep bank of snow at the bottom of the tiger that you had to negotiate to get down to the A93 and back to the car. I haven't seen anything like that in the last 10+ years.
As said above, there has usually been snow to ski/board in gullies when touring/hiking, even if there isn't much at the ski centres.
The last few seasons has been slim pickings even for ski touring. Yes, there is some snow up high, but all but the most optimistic/blinkered can see there is a problem.

Fingers crossed it is a temporary blip.

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Something that is a major problem which the OP didn’t bring up - staffing, or more generally Brexit!

This affects all of the areas, but the more remote from workforce 3 - the 3 that actually are still trying to make snowsports work - are having the biggest problems. They simply can’t ramp up staffing at short notice as they could pre Brexit / pre Covid.

It’s not that there hasn’t been snow since Covid for Glenshee to get out to Coire Fionn, but there just can’t get enough of a workforce to make it happen quickly enough.

The benefits of the Rannoch Chair at Glencoe are notable, and this sets the direction of travel - more capacity deliverable with less staff resource.

In the later 2000s and 2010s Glenshee benefited from having the capacity to get the numbers on the hill when snow came good in a way CairnGorm no longer can. This business model has though been eclipsed by lack of available workforce.

Glenshee has the biggest problems because it covers the biggest area, plus is almost entirely dependent on low level surface lifts to access its most snow sure terrain. These need a lot of prep time to get usable, plus find the staff to run them. The snow further up / out often out lasts the access tows/runs and none have sufficient capacity to cope with just 1 lift per ‘hop’ out to Glas Maol in good conditions.

Glenshee also has no credible grid connection options, adequate power would have to come from well beyond the closest locations with mains. Think millions.

The enterprise agencies won’t invest to protect employment, they look for increased employment. The ski areas actually need to become more efficient in use of staff resource, not increase staffing needs further when unable to fill current roles.

The other factor, investment is needed, but HIE/CML have poisoned the well to the extent there is no private investment route possible. People look at the mess on CairnGorm, where after many tens of millions spent, even if the funicular had not shut again it was projected to require ongoing subsidy!

However, there’s also a fair bit of rose tinted specs around - people who’s early memories coincided with a number of big snow years and are convinced it was always like that in the past! Glenshee has always been a bit infamous for snow droughts, something I remember a lot when young was stuff like ‘Butcharts complete but very narrow’. Didn’t tell you about walking to the T-bar, which was singles only and the narrow bits were one ski at a time on snow! Laughing

We’re not yet, particularly anywhere different from the horrors of 88/89, 89/90 and 91/92 in the years since covid. CairnGorm isn’t much worse than 90/91 which was fairly cold but dry - the difference this year is no functional non surface uplift and lack of will to open. Basically CairnGorm has made both this and last season feel much worse overall than comparable past seasons.

Worth noting that both the WWP and M1 uptracks are complete currently.

Should we get another 2-3 years of similar then it does look like a step change, but there was similar chat in the run of mid 2000s seasons. There is definitely a cyclical aspect to it all, even if the baseline is moving the wrong direction.

Aside from staffing, Brexit has added costs, substantial logistical issues and admin to getting vital equipment parts from the EU for lifts and groomers etc.

When you take into account snow reliability, ski area layout, can-do attitude, accessibility, facilities etc... Glencoe now seems miles ahead of the others. That hasn't always been the case and should be very much to their credit.

It's hard to be too optimistic about the others in the medium term, though luck will play a part - e.g. the French low resorts had an idyllic Christmas / New Year period this season, which has probably saved some of them for now. It's possible something similar could happen here - or the opposite.

In good conditions they can all be great and despite only having lived in Scotland since the early 2010s I've been lucky to see them all in excellent snow conditions with nearly their entire areas open. But it's been very unusual in the last few seasons, except at Glencoe.

You know it makes sense.

Something that would certainly help the business sustainability of Glenshee would be to return the A93 to its primary/trunk road status. As part of the Strategic Road Network it would fall under one of the trunk road maintenance contracts, this would significantly shift the dial on winter maintenance and snow clearance, vs two councils which treat it as a low priority route out of their area, that doesn't serve communities in their own council!

When following Storm Frank the A93 was shut north of Braemar with the only route out being south via the Cairnwell Pass, the pass was kept open 24/7 for weeks through the depths of winter, until temporary repairs allowed single file traffic on the damaged bridge out of Braemar.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

We had the 4 station season pass for 23 and we got a fair amount of use from it at Glenshee and Glencoe. Last year we started the season off at the Shee over new year it was a great time.

Accommodation and transport seem to be significant issues for Glenshee. It seemed that Glencoe needs snowmaking.

A snowHead

@davidof, I don't agree with your rephrasing, but in any case, your post isn't really relevant to this thread.

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Scotland's ski season used to last from October to June.

Now, it's 90% closed in the deepest winter of February.

Temperatures are soaring.

Rain is pouring.

Warm winds are howling.

Snowfall has collapsed this century.

Skiing in Scotland is drawing to a close.

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@GreenDay, it’s great that we, as regular kids at regular schools, had teachers that could actually have such a bearing on us skiing-wise that we remember them 45 years later.
It probably wasn’t even that uncommon then. We’d be daft to think it was just our schools that offered up a “ski club”. I remember feeling extremely envious of the kids from Grantown Grammar (also a misnomer for a state school) who were deemed to be born close enough to ‘the hill’ to warrant a free kids pass.
I doubt they do any more. As you say, quite sad Crying or Very sad

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Before my time but 67 was one of the snowiest, coldest winters since Victorian times, then 68 and 69 saw the folding of Mar Lodge as a ski area as it barely snowed.

I skied The Lecht and Glenshee as a kid from 82 to 90 and the first few years were mostly a struggle to get up the hill due to bad road conditions. Snow on the hill wasn’t always the best but I skied many weekends from Hogmanay to Easter. Snow seemed to have disappeared when I went to uni in 92. It definitely snowed in 94 but otherwise in my mind, it was slim pickings and I didn’t ski at all until…

In 2005, friends tempted me on my 2nd ever trip to the Alps. Soll in the Ski Welt. I was back skiing, but with almost the least appropriate vehicle, a Honda S2000.

In 2006, I crashed it, on black ice, trying to fit in a trip to Glenshee after a visit to the parents, before a week in Chamonix. After another white knuckle drive, including a 360 spin on the Stonehaven bypass (that somehow happened without a crash) and 8 hours passing upturned vehicles with almost no touches of either accelerator or brake, I discovered winter tyres.

I did a ski mountaineering course at Cairngorm. The snow was rubbish and the wind so fierce it destroyed a rooftop ski box and lifted a fellow participant straight off Windy Ridge into the heather.

In 2007, I was underemployed in Glasgow and the snow was rubbish again but I realised the west coast ski areas had much better terrain and views than the East coast ones.

2008-2010 were great skiing years. In 2008 I managed trips to all 5 Scottish ski areas, in the 250bhp RWD 2 seat convertible with notorious handling, with the roof down all the way from somewhere in the lowlands to the car park. Plus trips to Raise, Swinhope Moor and Yad Moss. I remember digging out the parking space at Yad Moss. The snow was above the bonnet. Have to admit I bottled the drive to Swinhope and stopped in the village below, hitching a lift from the village. Had to cling onto the back of a Japanese 4X4, standing on the tow bar as it already had 5 people in it rolling eyes

They were very nice and let me put my rucksack/skis/boots/lunch in the back. I got a lift back down inside a Subaru.

I skied to the car park, not just at Glencoe (and not just on the red and blue but on 2 separate occasions, the car park black), but also at Nevis (1221m down to 91m ASL) in 2009.

There was a March which a friend pencilled off between jobs, but there was no snow at all. Then he drove up from Northamptonshire and we had an incredible weekend at Cairngorm, in April.

In these years I met people buried by avalanches (at Glencoe and Glenshee) and had a chat to them about how they got it all wrong as we went up a lift. As well as 6 days in the Alps, I was getting 12-13 days in Scotland.

My mum was in ICU for one winter, then I had 2 children which limited my skiing. Especially my son, being born in January 2012. Now he’s the one asking me if there’s any chance of a trip to ski Scotland. We last went in April, not great conditions but that makes him learn things. The terrain encourages me to push him without actually putting him in danger. Hope I can show him the Tiger and Flypaper some day.

All of which is a long way of saying I’ve not given up hope yet.

Can’t believe I didn’t mention the ‘lifts to the hills’ section of the Winterhighland forum. This had a seminal impact on both my skiing and my relationship with my grandmother, who was very happy to let me sleep at her house in Glasgow before getting a lift with a random stranger off the internet at the crack of dawn on Saturday and Sunday. We always spent at least 1 evening chatting. I cleared the most poisonous looking things from her fridge and introduced her to some new foods, like risotto. I visited her quite often in spring. We did a drive round the lochs one day and some wise guy in Dumbarton said “nice car, shame about your date”. Thankfully she was a bit hard of hearing.

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Re : Scottish snow....

A Scottish "season" can be very much made by single snow event plus wind. The spring run or main basin at Glencoe can easily hold 10-15ft of snow (while adjacent hillside is bare). Once fully loaded then the gullies are remarkably resistant to thaw.

No doubt the climate has changed for the worse. However I think there is some hope we can get such storms (sadly lacking this year) in future.

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Have some more stats .

* Scotland skier days...
1988 = 660,000
2024 = 55,000

Decline = -92%

The stats are clear, son wink

There is no doubt in my mind that there is marked decline in skiable snow, but despite what some people (and 2 of the ski Scottish centres) might say, snow still falls and there is a strong demand for skiing.

Whitegold; nice cherry picking of stats from an exceptionally good and exceptionally bad year. Also in 1988 budget airlines didn't exist, internet didn't exist, cheap ski holidays abroad weren't available to the masses, so most Scottish skiers skied in Scotland as there wasn't any viable option (and of course there was more snow back then)

The Winterhighland forum used to sometimes give skier numbers after each season.
Here are the Scottish skier days from 2000-2010:
2000/01 - 366000
2001/02 - 237800
2002/03 - 153000
2003/04 - 164500
2004/05 - 147500
2005/06 - 154500
2006/07 - 79000
2007/08 - 165000
2008/09 - 160000
2009/10 - 343500

Skier numbers vary massively with the snow conditions. It would be interesting to see more recent skier numbers

You know it makes sense.

The troll is clear, loon. wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

While the OP wanted a discussion for the areas other than CairnGorm and their future, I think the question of whether CairnGorm has a future and what shape that takes has a fairly significant impact on shaping future options elsewhere.

The starting point to answering the OPs question is the fundamental one - can Scotland support five snowsports areas, would the industry have more chance of sufficient investment to ensure it's survival if the number of ski areas was reduced?

Overall, if you look at the overall picture of deferred maintenance across the industry, to get all existent uplift (including those lifts in 'vertical storage') back to fully operational and fully up to date on everything, you are starting to look at figures that are scary.

In an era with less predictable and less consistent snow cover, it becomes more critical that the ski areas can take advantage of the snow they do get and respond quickly / open swiftly after big storms. That means not digging out a funicular every morning, not missing the bluebird powder Saturday because the road is still blocked at 4pm despite the storm abating at 4am! It requires significant upscaling of snow making and for that higher up, is not necessarily better. It requires ski areas that don't need weeks of work in order to fully open because of staffing constraints.

You also need to consider the carrying capacity of each area relative to the population catchment it primarily serves. Scotland is very heavily urbanised, so over half the population is in the wider central belt, and a lot of the rest if focussed up the East Coast, Aberdeen/shire and the Inner Moray Firth.

In terms of raw proximity to population, Glencoe and Glenshee are the winners. Though further away from the central belt population centres, CairnGorm has markedly better transport links to counter the extra distance, with the advantage of a substantial bed base and other facilities for weekend / short breaks. The Lecht is very remote with respect to Central Scotland, but has a reasonable decent local catchment relative to the scale of the ski area.

The clearest outlier here is Nevis Range, it is the most remote in terms of distance from significant population centres, and the majority of potential customers have to drive an hour past Glencoe to get there.

In terms of expenditure required on the lift network and geography alone, Nevis Range is looking decidedly vulnerable in the drop zone at the bottom of the league, despite having some truly exceptional lift served / assisted terrain. Crying or Very sad

Leaving CairnGorm from the equation for now as per OP. So if Glencoe is in the stronger position in the West, what of Glenshee vs the Lecht?

A stark reality is it rather looks like post 2020, Glenshee might irrespective of snow, simply not be able to fully utilise the capacity of the snowsports area. If the cannot open the full area, they cannot get the numbers on the hill when conditions are good to maintain the full area in the long term. It could become a catch 22.

For the Lecht, for all the effort made on the beginners area and the blue runs / tows, they have also fallen into a negative catch 22 with the bigger lifts. They rarely run (Harrier can't) because not enough people come to use them, but people don't come for the bigger runs because the tows are rarely running.

Subject to adequately overcoming the water constraint issue on current snowmaking capacity, the Lecht looks to be an easier and more viable fix. With snow making and some limited ground works on the top and parallel to the A939, a chairlift replacement of the Harrier Poma could serve green, blue, red and black terrain, allowing removal of the Harrier and Falcon Pomas, indirectly providing capacity to remove all but 1 or 2 of the Eagle 1, Eagle 2, Grouse, Osprey and Kestrel Pomas.

Now what about Glenshee? If there was an easy or affordable fix to the question of more reliable access to Coire Fionn and Glas Maol, it likely would already have been done. A non surface lift from below the former Devils Elbow has been mused about for decades, but if a single lift in a straight line significant wind exposure would ensue. The obvious location for such a lift to terminate would be near the Meall Odhar Cafe, which doesn't then address the issue of getting into Fionn Coire if it has snow and Meall Odhar doesn't!

A shorter and less exposed approach which goes direct to the base of the 3 Pomas in Fionn Coire would be up Centre Gully from the A93 from below the final climb up to the ski centre. Both access lift options open up the problem of the double base issue and if everything else remained as is, you would often see Fionn Coire functioning as a distinct and isolated little ski area with no way of moving between the Fionn Pomas and the rest of the area. The balance of customer split lies very heavily in favour of the Southern approach!

A serious of short chairlifts, while not having uptracks to build / maintain, will worsen the lift staff requirement vs a single Poma on each aspect out to Glas Maol. The wind exposure to prevailing SW wind on Meall Odhar has always been a concern and why I don't think a firm line for any such potential chairlift has ever been agreed. Short of boring a tunnel from the carpark to Fionn Coire I don't know how you address the reliability of access and make it quicker and less labour intensive to get open out to Glas Maol.

What else has been evident post Covid, is that Glenshee has the setup that has worked best in terms of snow factory usage. It neatly underlines the importance of minimising ablation of your valuable machine made snow and reflects why gully storage of drifted snow was key to the early development of Scottish skiing.

The lack of grid power is another big alarm ringing over Glenshee's future as it currently exists. More and bigger diesel generators to power more snow guns and charge electric cars is not going to be a particularly favourable marketing story for the future!

So in answer to the fundamental question - should there be five Scottish ski areas going forward? My blunt answer would be no, at least not in current form. However, unless you are willing to stomach a further significant 8 figure sum being spent on CairnGorm, then it should close.

However if you take a strategic overview of the Scottish ski industry as a whole and had a big pot of money to spread around, CairnGorm would not on an objective basis be one you would close. CairnGorm alone has scope for actual upwards expansion of the lift served terrain.

Despite last summers struggles at the Lecht, my gut instinct is the last two ski areas left in Scotland if it comes to that will be the Lecht and Glencoe.

A snowHead

Interesting posts Haggishunter - thanks.

I had wandered if access to Corrie Fionn at Glenshee might be achieved by an 'up and down chairlift'. One with a top station somewhere at the top of Sunnyside chair/Cluny, down to the bottom of the middle valley, where it could load in both directions, and up towards the top of the old meal odhar t-bar/Caenlochan. 1 fixed grip chair could effectively replace Caenlochan, meall odhar poma (which needs too much snow pushed onto the uptrack to be viable), and both Cluny lifts. Expensive, but it would allow access into Corrie Fionn without needing surface lifts. Wind would be a factor, but when it is that windy, how many people will be skiing anyway?

The lecht have definitely gotten themselves into a catch22 situation and it might not just be a lack of snow that has done them damage to their credibility/viability.
I used to take my kids to the Lecht when they were young (around the time the chairlift was installed), then they started only opening the bigger lifts 'subject to demand'. They basically wanted to charge full price, but not open the full area. I gave up going, as did quite a few other people I used to ski with as you had the situation (midweek) where you were charged full price but they would open the eagle, grouse and chairlift. Harrier etc were down as 'opening subject to demand', but the runs weren't even pisted.
Staffing, or running costs can't have been a factor as they would run the grouse and the chairlift at the same time. Puzzled

. Why not open the chair and the harrier (keep grouse shut unless it's busy), then most of the area is available for much the same operating cost. I think the Lecht have lost a lot of midweek custom over the years with that silly policy.

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Glenshee currently has an anemometer mast monitoring wind speeds next to the car park, presumably in preparation for a possible wind turbine to offset their generator costs. Unfortunately at the moment they would not be able to sell the excess power unless they can get someone to pay for a grid connection.

One way to get to Corrie Fionn is to walk, perhaps with a minibus first to Meal odhar from the car park. That would be cheap and would favour a smaller scale club operation or pared back commercial operation, returning that area to its roots. A hut for overnight accommodation in the car park might help.

Refurbishing existing lifts is a lot cheaper and easier than building new lifts, so make do and mend is the name of the game.

One future for Cairngorm is to run the M1 and Ptarmigan tows on a club basis with the Ptarmigan restaurant reconfigured as a year round ‘Alpine Hut’. But no doubt that would not be straight forward and i doubt that option is being considered whilst there is still hope for the funicular.

Clearly though, climate change is the fundamental problem. The only long shot might be that we have messed the climate up so badly that something counter intuitive happens, like more easterlies, but even then the source air will probably be too warm.

By the way if anyone is interested in the original Cairngorm sideways chairlift, this last surviving aerial ropeway in Lancashire operates in a very similar way except it is downloading under gravity rather than using an electric motor to haul passengers uphill.

http://youtube.com/v/6RiYXI1Tfu4?si=rjDxegM8A8SrRMCN

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On this subject - Andy Meldrum owner of Glencoe is giving a talk / presentation at RoamWest (just round the corner from the Corran Ferry) on Thursday 27th February 'Glencoe Mountain Ltd - A vision for the future). Starts 8.30pm, bar food available beforehand.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Sadly, Scottish skiing has been fighting a tide for the last 30 years
. I remember following the lift statia of each resort on Ceefax on the 80s and most of the resorts were running a lot of their lifts from December toid April.
Aviemore had become a ski town and had that 'buzz'
Many towns with slopes between 800-1800 metres have decided to hang up their skirt boots and look for other sources of income.

Evening when snow was great, there was always the roads, parking, lift capacity and,.most of all, the wind to contend with. But it was epic. People skiing in Kilts and hip flasks of the local firewater flowed.

Maybe the gulf stream may divert a bit of the next 20 years and Scotland becomes the next powder heaven.

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Sadly, Scottish skiing has been fighting a tide for the last 30 years
. I remember following the lift statia of each resort on Ceefax on the 80s and most of the resorts were running a lot of their lifts from December toid April.
Aviemore had become a ski town and had that 'buzz'
Many towns with slopes between 800-1800 metres have decided to hang up their skirt boots and look for other sources of income.

Evening when snow was great, there was always the roads, parking, lift capacity and,.most of all, the wind to contend with. But it was epic. People skiing in Kilts and hip flasks of the local firewater flowed.

Maybe the gulf stream may divert a bit of the next 20 years and Scotland becomes the next powder heaven.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I definitely agree that staffing and will are just as large obstacles as the climate. I've been touring at CG and GC this year when they could've had a LOT more terrain open than they did. Both seem to be prioritising beginners at the expense of those who want the higher lifts open. You can see why this makes sense commercially but it's hard not be disappointed. The biggest tragedy is the total abandonment of snowports by Nevis Range IMO. To think that the braveheart will never run again is heartbreaking. The back corries are up there with anything in Europe on their day.

After all it is free

^ When could GC have had more terrain open ? While there's been snow in the gullies the uptracks for the main basin et al have never been complete as yet this season. That big storm with the unpronouncable name stripped the top 100m to such an extent there was no way to get a groomer up, we did as far as we could to rough it up and build a 'wall' to catch as much snow as possible but even then theres never been enough to get them safely open. Not being defensive just stating fact as cosmetically it might look OK we still have to get people up there. Nowt to do with commercials either. It's a weird situation to have the middle open but not the top, i totally agree and the reverse from normal when we're trying to work out how to get people down from the Main Basin Laughing

I hope the next 3 days don’t strip too much useful snow away and a decent amount comes soon after to get the top lifts open. Good of you to confirm the Main Basin up track really wasn’t a goer at any point. Frustrating for us all, I’m sure.

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Bad news I'm afraid, utterly trashed, literally poured off the mountain the last 3 days. Back to cold tomorrow and some snow incoming so fingers crossed we get a reload.

Help!!

the future of Scottish snowsports? (excluding Cairngorm)

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