 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
No doubt a high temptation
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But presumably solo (no one raised an alarm) on a level 4 day 
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@tomredfern, we were up there this lunchtime (the lift was closed).
We could not believe that there were tracks going around to the Posettes.
There is a great deal of fresh snow and has been a lot of wind.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It could be just the DM "reporting", but the impression given is that the (apparently very large) avalanche happened some (considerable?) time before the ski patrol noticed it at the end of the day and investigated before finding the victim partially buried and dead, and then presumably with an unknown number of victims and no witnesses they would have needed a helicopter with a RECCO detector or a number of handheld devices to be able to be reasonably sure that there were no more people to find.
I'm not familiar with the Grands Montets - is this area really so remote that there was no-one around and no lift oversight which would have made the slide obvious at the time and caused it to be reported immediately?
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The article in Le Dauphine also includes the first avalanche:
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Already on Tuesday, January 28, a 55-year-old lost his life at Grands Montets, in a large avalanche: 400 meters wide and around a kilometer long, the avalanche left no chance for this skier discovered at the very end of the day.
This victim appeared to be of British nationality. Finally, the investigations showed that one was a national with dual nationality, Portuguese and Brazilian. Furthermore, if there was still doubt about the final toll of this accident, the additional research carried out the following morning confirmed the toll of one death in the Grands Montets avalanche. |
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https://pistehors.com/tHyRrpQB1g7SdbHcoOlu/british-skier-dies-in-large-avalanche-on-mont-blanc-massif
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A 55-year-old British skier lost his life on Tuesday in a massive avalanche that struck in the Mont-Blanc Massif, specifically in the Grands Montets ski area near the NW facing Herse sector, according to emergency services and the Haute-Savoie Prefecture. The avalanche, described as "very large" by authorities, measured approximately one kilometer in length and 400 meters in width.
The avalanche occurred late in the afternoon, discovered by ski patrol teams as they were closing the resort. The victim, found deceased by rescue teams, was skiing off-piste in a section of the domain that had been closed due to the high avalanche risk. Poor weather conditions, including dense clouds and whiteout visibility, made it impossible to determine the exact origin of the avalanche.
The Prefecture of Haute-Savoie emphasized the high avalanche risk on Tuesday, rated at 4 out of 5 on the avalanche scale. For Wednesday, the risk has decreased slightly but remains "Considerable" at level 3 out of 5 for the Mont-Blanc, Aravis, Chablais, and Bauges massifs.
In a statement, the Haute-Savoie authorities urged all mountain-goers to exercise extreme caution and strictly follow safety guidelines provided by ski resorts and public services. They noted the instability of the snowpack and highlighted the ongoing threat of additional avalanches. |
Guess that answers the question of whether anyone could have seen it happen then - remote, closed, dense clouds and whiteout visibility...
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@ousekjarr,
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remote, closed, dense clouds and whiteout visibility..
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Does make you wonder what the man was doing there. I was a bit confused by the Dauphiné report. Was it saying at the end that there might have been another skier (Portuguese/Brazilian) with him, but the ultimate conclusion was that the man was on his own? How can they be sure with such a huge avalanche and the possibility of people not wearing avalanche kit?
Horrific, anyway.
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My understanding is they go use the Recco gear which will get a reflection from almost any electronic device from phones to car keys.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My reading of that was that they found something on him which suggested he was British, but on tracing his accommodation discovered his passport or something else that confirmed his nationality. Could be anything - British driving licence or credit card, but both Brazilian and Portuguese passports, or some similar thing.
Basically, every avalanche has an unknown number of victims, in the range 0 to X. Witnesses are the quickest way to get an estimate of how many people are trapped, but you have to assume that there may be more. If a group of people are all trapped, did a witness some distance away only count 4, or all 5?
The options are available are then:
1. Wait until the snow melts and any bodies are revealed - long after you could have helped survivors
2. Hope they all had transceivers and you can locate those - could take too long, but is their best hope
3. Bring in RECCO kit and hope that each person had a RECCO tag somewhere on their kit, but given that most brands now include them it wouldn't be unusual to have at least 2 on each person (jacket and trousers) and maybe more
4. Probe the snow across the whole area of slide - as this was 1000m x 400m, that could take days
5. Use some form of mobile phone detection system with the area sanitized to remove all other phone signals - depends on everyone having a phone and the battery remaining charged
6. Shift the snow - could take weeks unless you are prepared to run a piste basher over the area
7. Dog search - depends on the depth of the burial
I'm guessing they used 2, 3 and maybe 4 ([edit: plus 7] over the last 24 hours.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 29-01-25 18:40; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| MAthert wrote: |
| My understanding is they go use the Recco gear which will get a reflection from almost any electronic device from phones to car keys. |
https://uk.oneill.com/blogs/all/recco-technology
The reflector is a passive bit of plastic containing an antenna connected to a diode. It receives the signal from the detector, which powers the diode and transmits it back again. The signal level from a reflector is very different from the signal level that it would get back from keys, phones, etc and in reality there's probably a similar level of reflection from poles, electrical cables and so on. The detector is looking for a strong signal, not some weak bounce from a set of keys which is indistinguishable from the background level.
It's a bit like the difference between shining a torch at a mirror, and shining it at a wall. The mirror returns 90% of the light, while the wall returns 10%
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@ousekjarr, let's hope the rest of that list doesn't eventually prove their 'final' conclusion to be incorrect. I think this is a case in which it would be more than usually pointless to speculate on more details. For now, there's just the bare fact of someone unfortunate enough to have been killed by an avalanche in what was described, in one report, as a closed area.
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You know it makes sense.
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Interesting that the Daily Mail article says he had done 11 laps on the chairlift. Presumably they recovered his lift pass and checked the turnstile data.
So potentially he had skied that slope several times before he hit the weak spot in the snowpack and triggered the slide.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@snowrider, potentially, yes - or he could have stuck to the piste on the first 10 occasions. Or given the whiteout conditions maybe he got lost and ended up off-piste by accident.
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Poster: A snowHead
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A few years ago I travelled out to meet my girlfriend in Cham. One of the guys that worked at " The Pub " skied with us alot lost his life of the back of the Bochard shortly after I left
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Details of the other incident today
https://pistehors.com/tnw9spQB1g7SdbHcB-nI/swiss-skier-killed-in-avalanche-in-chamonix-valley
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A woman in her thirties lost her life in an avalanche on Wednesday morning while skiing off-piste in the Chamonix Valley. The incident occurred around 2000 meters altitude on the north face of the Aiguillette des Posettes (2201m) under the Croix de Posettes in Vallorcine, Haute-Savoie. The incident follows the fatality of an another off-piste skier at the nearby Grands Montets yesterday.
The victim, along with two other members of her family, all Swiss nationals, was skiing off-piste when a snow slide engulfed them. The High Mountain Gendarmerie (PGHM) of Chamonix-Mont-Blanc was called to the scene around 11:30 a.m. to conduct the rescue operation.
Despite being equipped with avalanche airbags and transceivers, the woman succumbed to the accident, possibly due to injuries received during the slide. One of the other skiers sustained minor injuries and was transported to the Sallanches hospital, while the third person was unharmed and gave the alert.
According to rescue officials, the avalanche was likely triggered by the group's passage. The avalanche risk level on Wednesday was assessed at 3 out of 5, indicating a considerable danger level.
Avalanche Conditions and Warnings
The avalanche bulletin for the region highlighted significant instability in the snowpack due to recent heavy snowfall. Over the past two days, fresh snow accumulations ranged from 40 to 80 cm at altitudes above 2000 meters. The report warned of numerous weak slabs in the fresh snow, particularly in northern and eastern orientations, making them difficult to detect and easily triggered.
Authorities continue to urge caution in backcountry skiing areas, emphasizing the heightened avalanche risk following recent snowfall. Skiers and snowboarders are advised to stay on marked trails and remain vigilant in off-piste areas. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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At around 4:30 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 January, an avalanche occurred under the Pointe de Cugne, culminating at 2,984 metres, in the commune of Val-Cenis, in the Haute-Maurienne valley, in Savoie. The avalanche caused three deaths, says the prefecture of Savoie. A fourth person was pulled out of the snow and found in cardio-respiratory arrest and hypothermia. "She was transported in absolute emergency by helicopter to the Grenoble University hospital," the prefecture said. "Seasoned people equipped with detectors" The victims are Norwegian ski tourers, a group of seven people, three of whom are uninjured.
According to the mayor of Val Cenis, Jacques Arnoux, they were "seasoned people equipped with avalanche victim detectors (DVA)" caught in "a very large avalanche".
On Wednesday, January 29, the avalanche risk index was 3 out of 5 (marked risk) in Haute-Maurienne, according to Météo France. "The numerous slabs formed during the recent snowfall are weakly stabilized," indicates the meteorological service.
For his part, the mayor of Val Cenis mentions numerous "snowfalls, with between 30 and 40 cm at altitude, conducive to the creation of slabs and avalanches."
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A lot of the comments on this thread seem to assume that the victim himself triggered the avalanche. While it can't be ruled out I think it more likely that it was triggered above the top of the Herse chair for a couple of reasons. First, all the lift served terrain from the Herse lift would be thoroughly tracked out by mid-afternoon on a powder day, and two, 1000m x 400m is really pretty big. If the entirety of that was below the top of the Herse lift then it seems very unlikely that only 1 person would have been caught and that no-one would have seen it. Indeed, the gendarme? are not at present stating that the victim triggered it
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The mountain police said: "The victim was a 55-year-old man of English origin. The reasons for the triggering of this kilometre-long and 400-metre-wide flow are currently unknown and an investigation is underway."
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https://www.nationalworld.com/travel/travel-news/grand-montets-avalanche-british-man-killed-after-blanketed-by-very-large-avalanche-4965029
As a side note, French off-piste areas are neither 'open' or 'closed' so he was only on a closed section of the mountain if he was on a closed piste
More details are needed (and the above may be incorrect if the victim hiked or traversed away from the Herse Sector, but the above report does have the resort stating that it was in the Herse sector
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@rambotion, my understanding (and a chum is a pisteur on the Grands, although I haven’t spoken to him directly, just chinese whispers) is that he’d traversed across from Herse towards the side of Bochard, which is a big slope - and Bochard was closed, which around here means either high winds or too much avalanche risk off the sides.
(Although that’s not publicised.)
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@rambotion,
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As a side note, French off-piste areas are neither 'open' or 'closed' so he was only on a closed section of the mountain if he was on a closed piste
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I was puzzled by that reference. Just the limits of journalism, I guess.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@rambotion, no-one saw the slide happen because it was late and with low visibility, therefore no-one knows what caused it, but there is one person dead and no other victims so it is more likely than not that he triggered it. If instead there was a party higher up who triggered it and he was simply caught in it, that would mean that either the higher party had no idea that they had caused a slide (unlikely), or that they triggered it and then successfully skirted the area but did not think to call it in in case someone had been caught by it. That would be pretty terrible, especially as the conditions described would mean that they could have no idea whether there was anyone below them.
Also,
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| As a side note, French off-piste areas are neither 'open' or 'closed' so he was only on a closed section of the mountain if he was on a closed piste |
While that may be legally and linguistically true, the fact that access routes to off-piste terrain which is currently considered unsafe have been and will continue to be roped off would argue otherwise. Where a lift has an exit to the right onto a piste and an exit to the left which is only used by gnarly dudes to access a popular off-piste area, the pisteurs won't simply expect everyone to understand that they take their life in their hands if they turn left. On a 4/5 or 5/5 day or where there are specific dangers identified in that sector, you can be very sure that they'll put a rope across and mark it as dangerous, because otherwise the lawyers of deceased skiers will be keen to rinse them regularly. That may not be enough to persuade some people to give it a miss, but it removes the threat to the lift company.
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@ousekjarr,
is this (hopefully) certain now? (I guess it is but the search was called off due risk to searchers).
As an aside, on a 5/5 day, I doubt anything would be open ... usually folks confined to barracks 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@under a new name, no idea, that's what was reported - but can anyone be certain until late spring? The search was called off on the day, but resumed and completed/abandoned the following day.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@under a new name,
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which around here means either high winds or too much avalanche risk off the sides.
(Although that’s not publicised.)
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Careful with comments like that or you will get Phil W and Boarder2020 calling you a conspiracy theorist
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@ousekjarr, quite.
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You know it makes sense.
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I recall that during the "canicule" of 2002 the Mayor of Chamonix closed the entire mountain because conditions were so dangerous.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@rambotion, only what a few guides and pisteurs have told me 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
@rambotion, my understanding (and a chum is a pisteur on the Grands, although I haven’t spoken to him directly, just chinese whispers) is that he’d traversed across from Herse towards the side of Bochard, which is a big slope - and Bochard was closed, which around here means either high winds or too much avalanche risk off the sides.
(Although that’s not publicised.) |
I did wonder about the location...
Been awhile since I skied GM : from the Herse you could in theory stay a high and traverse a long way looking for tracks.
I have a friend who was completely buried by a slide the Combe de la Pendant / Lavancher sector (20+ years ago).
Luckily survived to tell the tale.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Haggis_Trap, yeah. I’m not sure just how far you could easily get. Poor vis, it may be he headed in that direction and got lost.
Very sad, RIP
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Location seems to be the big question.
Four of us were there doing laps throughout the day, including the time of the accident as well as throughout the entire next day, all skiing off of the Herse Lift and throughout the Herse Sector. Even with bluebird conditions on day two, we didn't see any slides in the Herse Sector anywhere near the size described.
The Bochard Lift was open the morning after the accident and even from there the only large slides we saw were on the Face of the Grand Montets - well above the Herse Lift and well above his described departure point.
Hoping to see a more detailed report when better information comes available.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@rambotion, my understanding (and a chum is a pisteur on the Grands, although I haven’t spoken to him directly, just chinese whispers) is that he’d traversed across from Herse towards the side of Bochard, which is a big slope - and Bochard was closed, which around here means either high winds or too much avalanche risk off the sides.
(Although that’s not publicised.) |
I did wonder about the location...
Been awhile since I skied GM : from the Herse you could in theory stay a high and traverse a long way looking for tracks.
I have a friend who was completely buried by a slide the Combe de la Pendant / Lavancher sector (20+ years ago).
Luckily survived to tell the tale. |
Bouchard was assuredly closed the entire day and late in the day that entire portion of the mountain turned to high wind whiteout conditions for a good period of time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skiers left off Herse could be the location as the ground was clearly visible without any snow cover the next day and wouldn't have been blasted
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Agree - inside of the Herse Triangle seems to be logical.
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We skied debris (pretty well covered by Tuesday night's snow) between Herse and Bouchard yesterday. Suspicion is the avalanche may have started from the ridge above.
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@Shakira,
Maybe I've misunderstood here, but a persistent weak layer is/was known to exist across the whole area. OK, fresh snow and/or several freeze/thaw cycles may change things, but is it really the case that it has gone now, 2 days later?
On that basis, was it a great idea to ski in the area at all, even if the debris field could be assumed to be safer than the remaining area which may have exactly the same problem waiting to be triggered, except now with more snow on top which may make it even more likely to go? Has the avalanche warning level reduced generally, or does the report say that the snow is now stable?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The PWL that was likely a feature and in the Val Cenis avalanche won't be an issue in the Grands Montets ski area, i.e. any of the easy access terrain in the main bowl. This is because it all gets turned into a mogul field between snow falls which will cause any weak layers to break down and become stable. I'm not saying that it was necessarily safe today, after all it avalanched and killed two days ago, but the dangers of a top layer of windslab on top of compressed snow are not the same as a PWL and may (or may not) stabilise much more readily
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@ousekjarr, it was still a 4 yesterday, so we let the locals track it out and just went up in the afternoon and skied a low angle line down skiers right of the red off Bouchard.
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