 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
1.SKI TESTING IS VERY SUBJECTIVE
2.SKI TESTING WHEN NOT GIVEN THE CORRECT GUIDANCE AND "HOW TO TEST" INFO CAN BE SERIOUSLY DETRIMENTAL TO A PRODUCT/BRAND |
For a start, points 1 and 2 contradict each other. If was testing a ski, I'd test it in the conditions that I ride it; not to some preset criteria. The way that I test a ski (for my own use) and the way (for example) FTS would test a ski may well be completely different but we'd both gain the same valuable information as to whether it was suitable for each of us.
As for market segmentation, some of those who've posted here may have had the opportunity to test a few skis from different segments and base their decisions on that and others simply may not give a toss and buy the ski that feels best 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jeremy12,
oh .. ... I cannot be bothered to respond.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 29-12-06 22:00; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nick_C, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Nick_C, were you looking for this...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I screwed the lin up 1st time but as jeremy12 says, I dont really know what I am doing and I dont know what I like or not.
Sorry for enjoying skiing,finding it fun and not taking it seriously enough 
Also my spelling & gramma is bad at time for which I apoligies again
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Nick_C, are you sure you're not me?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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jeremy12, firstly Welcome to snowHeads  You obviously don't believe in slipping into a party quietly
Next, I should just point out that, according to forum etiquette (not just snowHeads), typing in capitals equates to SHOUTING!
There are one or two hints that suggest you are 'in the business'. Does the company you represent not believe in finding out what its customers and (more importantly) potential customers think of its products?
You may be interested to know that there were UK reps for a good number of ski manufacturers present at our recent test, offering advice and answering questions. I don't recall any of them trying to "HELP BUYERS UNDERSTAND SEGMENTATION" though - perhaps they thought we were beneath all that? 
In fact, they seemed most eager to know what each and every person thought of each and every ski 
"THIS KIND OF COMMENT DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD" ??
As to why you picked on Nickski's comments I've no idea - there were far more 'dangerous' and uninformed comments than his
All I can say is this: if anyone reads a single review on snowHeads and makes their mind up which skis to buy based on it, they're a nutter! SnowHeads is for exchanging opinions, for discussing. Once you have read half a dozen reviews of a ski by different types of skier, then you might be starting to get somewhere but even then, every snowHead knows: "Try Before U Buy"
If you want to find out what the industry thinks of your product; if you want opinion put in nice safe techno-babbley terms that mean little or nothing to 95% of the population; there are a dozen magazines and probably 5 times as many websites to feed all the hype of your corporate press releases back to you. But, if you have the courage to listen to someone tell you honestly what they think of your skis: send them to snowHeads!
Now, jeremy12, you've had your 'baptism of fire' (or should that be 'baptism of ice' ) and despite how it might appear to you at this point, opinions from experts are just as valued at snowHeads as opinions from 'Lay-skiers'. What is not so welcome, as you've found out, is someone telling someone else that they're first hand opinion is worthless because they haven't been preconditioned with this year's marketing hype (and don't SHOUT either please  ).
Jeez, I'm not even sure why you're so up tight about this; it's not like someone came out and said something really off-hand like 'All Rossignol skis are crap' is it?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 26-08-06 19:42; edited 1 time in total
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admin, I think I said "Salomon", not "Rossignol"...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes Wear The Fox Hat, we know you're too 'up tight' to ski Salomon - chill dude
And btw thanks for the rubber-ware - it proved ideal over the last 2 weeks. The plastic bag tip came in handy too!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| admin wrote: |
| And btw thanks for the rubber-ware - it proved ideal over the last 2 weeks. The plastic bag tip came in handy too! |
Look, let's keep that off the public forum...
...and where's my fleece???
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We gave it to visiting dignitaries, remember?
That was the last one in your size - I'll get some more made up soon guv. (anyone else fancy a snowHeads fleece, PM Admin )
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You know it makes sense.
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admin, good stuff, they are excellent fleeces!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Next, I should just point out that, according to forum etiquette (not just snowHeads), typing in capitals equates to SHOUTING!
"Yes im SORRY about that"
There are one or two hints that suggest you are 'in the business'. Does the company you represent not believe in finding out what its customers and (more importantly) potential customers think of its products?
Absolutely.Its the way in which this information and coallated and presented to the general public is the issue.
You may be interested to know that there were UK reps for a good number of ski manufacturers present at our recent test, offering advice and answering questions. I don't recall any of them trying to "HELP BUYERS UNDERSTAND SEGMENTATION" though - perhaps they thought we were beneath all that?
"Perhaps this is something they should consider for the future. This is crucial to helping consumers/potential buyers understand which segment may be suited to them.
If you go to purchase a laptop for example, the salesman will gather the information from you explain the market/options/segmentation and carry you through to help you make an educated decision.
Obviously there are only certain segments of skis that can be tested within a snowdome i.e testing an 85mm + ski indoors really will not give a true reflection of how it skis on the terrain for which it was built."
In fact, they seemed most eager to know what each and every person thought of each and every ski
"THIS KIND OF COMMENT DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD" ??
As to why you picked on Nickski's comments I've no idea - there were far more 'dangerous' and uninformed comments than his
Yes your right,
All I can say is this: if anyone reads a single review on snowHeads and makes their mind up which skis to buy based on it, they're a nutter! SnowHeads is for exchanging opinions, for discussing. Once you have read half a dozen reviews of a ski by different types of skier, then you might be starting to get somewhere but even then, every snowHead knows: "Try Before U Buy"
"There are heaps of nutters out there! Its deeper than that though. As an industry we should be trying to standardise the format for ski test results/ski segmentation rather than each organisation trying to do their own thing. Its confusing for the consumer."
If you want to find out what the industry thinks of your product; if you want opinion put in nice safe techno-babbley terms that mean little or nothing to 95% of the population; there are a dozen magazines and probably 5 times as many websites to feed all the hype of your corporate press releases back to you. But, if you have the courage to listen to someone tell you honestly what they think of your skis: send them to snowHeads!
"Yes only if they have been educated properly.
“K2 Burnin Luvs - ok I guess, did nothing for me, too soft I think. “
If this statement was followed by their weight and ability it would be perfect. Too soft compared to what? Are you 40kg or 140 kg?
Now, jeremy12, you've had your 'baptism of fire' (or should that be 'baptism of ice' ) and despite how it might appear to you at this point, opinions from experts are just as valued at snowHeads as opinions from 'Lay-skiers'. What is not so welcome, as you've found out, is someone telling someone else that they're first hand opinion is worthless because they haven't been preconditioned with this year's marketing hype (and don't SHOUT either please ).
Jeez, I'm not even sure why you're so up tight about this; it's not like someone came out and said something really off-hand like 'All Rossignol skis are crap' is it?
"A large part of my job involves talking with consumers , retailers and the guys who write the marketing hype. I experience first hand the confusion and questions consumers have when “trying before they buy”.For example a standard comment would be.
“I read on Snowheads that the Burnin Luv is too soft”
Too soft compared too what, for what level of skier…see the problem and yes it happens all the time."
In my opinion we should be trying to make the “snow sport pie” bigger as a collective.
I cant help but feel that some of the info on here will prevent ski sales rather than promote them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jeremy12, I take it you're not keen on user opinion then
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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USER OPINION PRESENTED IN THE CORRECT WAY!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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sorry i was shouting again!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've been umming and arring about whether to raise this or not.
Apart from "fun" I *really* don't like the categories in the test (grip. speed, control, fun).
I realise this was set up in a mega rush and record time, but now the dillemma is - do you change it, and force a (partial) re-write of all the existing reviews, but would mean that future reviews would be better, or do nothing?
For example. Speed. I don't understand what it's referring to. Maybe "stability at speed"? but is that whilst on the edge, or on a flat ski? And in any case, it should warrant a N/A when the ski is tested in a snowdome.
How about (taken from Skipressworld to kick off any discussion):
Easyness to Initiate
Forgiveness
Stability (would be N/A in a snowdome)
Edge Grip
Energy
Versatility
or of course, do nothing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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jeremy12, I think testing in the snowdome had some merit, even though the reviews are not to your taste. For example, I was impressed but the way the Santiago Mission, a wide ski, still felt comfortable in turns on firm snow. I (and, I am sure, every other snowhead tester) was fully aware that the snowdome did not represent all-mountain conditions. But I felt that the skis might suit the sort of skiing I do. Subsequent chat to the rep who was with the skis, and looking around various web site reviews suggests this is so. This sort of ski testing is popular here. I think that, as a bunch of skiers that have got to know eachother reasonably well, swapping notes is a good idea. I most certainly do not think it does more harm than good. Nor have we had that comment from our own (semi) tame retailer snowhead (SMALLZOOKEEPER), who has established credibility here. I agree with admin's comment about anybody buying a pair of skis based on a single snowhead's review.
veeeight, I wondered about the categories, too. I think that admin had to crack off with something, and for the Castleford tests, the categories should stand, to avoid asking for another re-write. But next time around, I think your suggestions are good.
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jeremy12,
you still haven't stated your credentials, so I personally find it difficult to respond to your comments
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"A large part of my job involves talking with consumers , retailers and the guys who write the marketing hype. I experience first hand the confusion and questions consumers have when “trying before they buy”.
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So what is your job? who do you work for?
veeeight, if a formal testing protocol is to be used i would add to your list with
short turns
long turns
looks / rack appeal
overall opinion
all the categories should be marked out od 10 and the results collated
the skiers ability and weight should also be recorded on the score card as a result saying a race ski is not forgiving made by an intermediate skier is not worth a lot to a racer
having been at every ski test that the SIGB has hosted since 1999 the results vary widely from skier to skier based not only on ability but also on skiing style, eg. a skier with a narrow stance width will find it harder to put a wide ski effectively onto its edge whilst in that stance, and therefore feel that it did not grip as well as someone ith a wider stance would.
The whole subject of getting good results is complex and is it the direction that the tests want to take.......or is it that a load of skiers want to go play on some skis and make comments about what THEY thought.
I think most readers of this site have got enough sence to read all the comments and use them as a bit of a guide.
i know that in 14 years of working in 3 very busy ski shops i have never had a customer come in and argue against buying a specific ski due to something they have read on a forum, or in a ski mag...if the sales advisor is any good at their job, they should be discussing the skiers needs and aspirations, looking at the skier, assessing their height, weight etc and helping them make an informed decision about the right kit for them.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Apart from "fun" I *really* don't like the categories in the test (grip. speed, control, fun).
How about (taken from Skipressworld to kick off any discussion):
Easyness to Initiate
Forgiveness
Stability (would be N/A in a snowdome)
Edge Grip
Energy
Versatility
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Here's the thing - it's easier to ask "did you feel you could control the ski or not?" than asking "how easy was it to initiate, and how forgiving was it?"
I mean, if you leave in the "fun" category, then you have just split the other three down to smaller levels, and then I think you're getting down to too fine a level, and I think that's where you want "professional" testers, a big resort, and a week long test.
In the limited time, limited space of Xscape, I think the categories allow everyone - from the person who's only done 1 or 2 weeks, up to the 100 week+ skiier to be able to give an opinion of the skis.
(As for height, weight, age, etc, all that data was recorded in the database, afaik)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
As for height, weight, age, etc, all that data was recorded in the database, afaik
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That's true: my quandry of course, was whether to display the username (more useful to people who know each other through snowHeads), display the personal data (more useful to the general public.) or display such sensitive data next to a username (Is the world ready to know that Frosty the Snowman is over 3m tall or that WTFH's gender is 'other'?)
At the moment, the reviews which were entered properly cannot be viewed by the unregistered Guests at snowHeads, so the username seemed more appropriate for now.
I think that regulars around here can glean a lot more from knowing a review was written by SMALLZOOKEEPER than from knowing it was written by someone of his weight and height.
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Phew.... I thought he was going to say "around"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jeremy12, You've got a problem in that you seem to be writing (SHOUTING) to us as though we're consumers, potential purchasers, punters . . . the great unwashed.
You seem to miss the point that this is a community, a bit dysfunctional occasionally, but we are not a resource for the industry to tap. There is a vast range of experience here, lots of cross cultural interaction and much good natured interaction about the basics of skis and skiing. We learn of each other's foibles and preferences and the reasons for them, we know our abilities from the incompetent w*nker that can't link two turns on skis or board to people who regularly ski locations and slopes that all you or I would do is leave a brown and pink smear down.
the idea that you want to "educate" us to test to your standards is a crass attempt to quantify the testing experience into data to presented to the ski manufacturer . . . more that likely just to justify a marketing or advertising fee . . . after all, in the PR/marketing business, there is sod-all worse than independent thought by the consumer.
Try to remember that this is a community of individuals, we value subjectivity and sharing and from that we make our own decisions and statements . . . and may well be poked in the eye for them . . . to add to the mix that is SnowHeads. Welcome and join in but don't please don't hector unless you're willing to provide substantive support for it or a willingness to be kicked in the butt
edit: proofreading's a bitch if you can't spool
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 27-08-06 11:53; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque, Oi, less of the incompetant
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Frosty the Snowman,
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You know it makes sense.
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jeremy12, we posted our personal comments and discussion on here, and our actual reviews on a questionnaire. We are a sociable bunch, and a few of us have actually met each other, so really I see it more like a converstion we would have down the pub, or in the bar after a days skiing. None of us are stupid enough to buy a ski totally based on a couple of runs down an artificial slope. It was more a social occasion, with a few skis to test thrown in. It also gave me a shortlist for the Mondial du Ski in Les Deux-Alpes in November. Now, last year at the Mondial, nearly all of the big names were there, and NOBODY , reps or skiers, went on about segmentation there either. Perhaps things like that are best left to the professionals, we just want to enjoy our skiing, and enjoy our skis.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Absolutely,everything your saying is correct and let me apologise again for my forum etiquette!
Although.....
"You seem to miss the point that this is a community, a bit dysfunctional occasionally, but we are not a resource for the industry to tap."
being on the web anybody can tap you.anybody can google and find your thoughts.
Like you say.you are a small gathering of skiers sharing feelings but unfortunately SNOWHEADS are a global source of information not just reserved for England or Europe.
You would think people dont just buy from reading a shorlist online but sometimes they do..stupid i agree!
People do however gather some initial thoughts online before they seriously approach a shop.
Being on the shop floor the most annoying thing is when you hear info coming from a consumers mouth like :"My friend read online that the Burnin luvs were soft".
Im sorry again for crashing the party but i stumbled in here like any consumer,punter,potential buyer could.
Im just trying to make my job talking to the every day joe about skiing easier.
People like SIGB,S+R,EB,DM,DS,FL are all out there testing skis and collating results working towards a common goal,talk to them SNOWHEADS.
I can imagine putting the results online would be time consuming.Why not let the above get stuck into it?
Whether i own a chalet,shop,brothel,ski brand,gay bar, it doesnt matter lets all get onto the same page when it comes to talk about ski testing (if you are going to publish it that is).
If you went out and bought a Rav 4 thinking it was a sports car because you didnt understand the segmentation/classes how pissed would you be!? the same applies in skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jeremy12, If the industry or any other body tries to tap us as resource it should not feel petulant if it gets kicked in the butt for its insouciance (I've got to cancel that RD subscription). You seen to miss the concept of 'community', we share and from that we gain choices that we can accept, ignore or add to.
Anything that is published within the forum is relevant to the forum contributors and not to external observers. Get involved with the community and gain a voice before talking poop about quantifying anything about how anyone should get down a hill or what they should do it with.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I hope we stick to our own review pages, and other sites such as the SCGB (members only  ) and epicski do, too. And it would help if those offering advice to us established their credentials on the forum first.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Masque, you beat me to it whilst I was writing. Different styles. They say the same thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
And it would help if those offering advice to us established their credentials on the forum first.
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well said achilles, i am having trouble taking jeremy12 seriously until he does just that
mind you if he is in the industry in the uK..... i can only think of 2 Jeremys, both of which i thought were better than this
remember the comunity has people all over the place
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I can't believe the animosity and closing of ranks towards jeremy12.
OK he did make a hell of an entrance, but he has got some valid points. What some of you seem to be saying that anyone else googling for info, stumbling upon snowHeads, shouldn't take any notice of our reviews as they are not part of the community and therefore don't understand the clique and comments made in the review.
Go figure.
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veeeight, quite the opposite - jeremy has said we shouldn't be reviewing skis because we are not qualified to do so!
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achilles, I run a ski shop in Chamonix. I have worked in the industry since 1996. I like to smash up marketting to give you a clearer picture of what is! I want you to do the thinking. I like FISH. I'm not a fan of UK chain ski shops nor am i fan of MacDonalds. I have good friends who work for UK chain stores. I take ski testing very seriously and am not open to bribes or any other form of persusion when it comes to product. Margin is nothing if the product sucks. etc, etc. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, what we're saying is that this is a community, it's not a pro-ski test forum and that anyone reading the reviews should not be dictating the terms by which we talk about skis or skiing. Join in and add to the debate but don't hector us about how invalid our opinions are because they don't fit within your measurement criteria.
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FAQ
