 Poster: A snowHead
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I’m not familiar enough with the Aiguile Rouge to say for sure, but near the top and on a wider part of run that leads into a right hand turn onto cat track.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| joffy69 wrote: |
I am disagreeing with this: "We have all seen the idiot tearing up the outside lane at traffic works and trying to move into a space that may not exist."
There should always be a space as you "merge in turn". |
The world is not black and white as you think so no there should not always be a space as I was not talking about stop-start traffic merging. I was talking about when the traffic is still freely moving, but some moron thinks they are entitled to break the speed limit of the road works, come tearing down the outside line, and push into a non-existent gap as I am busy doing the speed limit of the road works and everyone else has merged about from the impatient moron. Any accident at that point is the fault of the person who came tearing down the outside line, breaking the speed limit, even if, at the moment of the collision, they were the ones in front.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think I may have posted before that what has increased my nervousness of collisions lately, apart from increased traffic on the slopes generally, is the increase in boy racers (not always boys) who straightline down the edges of pistes, where there may be people either taking a breather or doing as I used to but rarely now do, short, controlled turns to avoid carnage in the middle of the piste. In other words, edges of pistes can be intrinsically unsafe.
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Reading the article the following caught my attention:
According to the Domaines Skiables de France, the association that represents ski area operators in France, an average of 10 traumatic deaths are recorded each year on French slopes.
Does that mean that outside of Avalanches - there are 10 on-piste deaths :/ - did not think the number was that high!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| KSH wrote: |
| I think I may have posted before that what has increased my nervousness of collisions lately, apart from increased traffic on the slopes generally, is the increase in boy racers (not always boys) who straightline down the edges of pistes, where there may be people either taking a breather or doing as I used to but rarely now do, short, controlled turns to avoid carnage in the middle of the piste. In other words, edges of pistes can be intrinsically unsafe. |
I tend to ski the edge of a piste. Firstly because any scraped off/windblown snow is likely to accumulate there and because you're less exposed to scud alley down the middle. Though people often seem to have an odd idea of standing to the side. When there is more than 12ft behind them they are going to be passed on the narrow side.
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| extremerob wrote: |
Reading the article the following caught my attention:
According to the Domaines Skiables de France, the association that represents ski area operators in France, an average of 10 traumatic deaths are recorded each year on French slopes.
Does that mean that outside of Avalanches - there are 10 on-piste deaths :/ - did not think the number was that high! |
With 58.6 million skier-days per year, I'm amazed (and don't believe) that number is so low
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I stand corrected - between 10 and 15 (discounting avalanche, rando and heart-failures) depending on which source you take. What a safe lot we all are. I'm even more amazed!
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| KSH wrote: |
| I think I may have posted before that what has increased my nervousness of collisions lately, apart from increased traffic on the slopes generally, is the increase in boy racers (not always boys) who straightline down the edges of pistes, where there may be people either taking a breather or doing as I used to but rarely now do, short, controlled turns to avoid carnage in the middle of the piste. In other words, edges of pistes can be intrinsically unsafe. |
I tend to ski the edge of a piste. Firstly because any scraped off/windblown snow is likely to accumulate there and because you're less exposed to scud alley down the middle. Though people often seem to have an odd idea of standing to the side. When there is more than 12ft behind them they are going to be passed on the narrow side. |
You might not aware. Many instructors will leave a gap between their stopped group and the edge of the piste deliberately (I do). It is safer, because of those skiing fast towards the edge of the piste. It allows some room for them to escape. The rule in general is that unless you can clearly see that the area close to the edge of the piste is clear, don't ski there and certainly don't ski fast there. And it is not at all appreciated when a skier chooses to take that gap simply because they like skiing the edge of the piste. If you did it to anyone I was teaching you would know all about it.
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The piste-edge skier is likely being responsible for the reasons dotm stated above. Don't forget you and your stationary group are part of the problem, so it's hard for you to claim the moral high-ground; we all just have to be cool and get along.
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I ride the edge a lot, never had a problem with it. I'd rather groups left a gap there, if you're asking. But I'm actually, you know - in control - so I can easily dump speed to something suitable for such a gap, if I choose to use it for whatever reason. And any of that group watching can see that and realize there's zero risk.
Nervous folk probably would appreciate systems like that in Sun Peaks, where all green runs are "slow skiing areas" and that's enforced by the patrol. I'm careful, not nervous, but I appreciate that too, it just seems like a sensible idea.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@zikomo,
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those skiing fast towards the edge of the piste. It allows some room for them to escape.
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I'm confused by this. Do you mean people who are skiing from the middle (loosely put) towards the edge ie traversing? Surely nobody who stops on or near the edge is safe from those skiers, even within the space within which you describe that you stop with your class? I appreciate that someone like me who is doing slow-ish, predictable turns down the edge wouldn't be safe either, though I suppose that because I'm doing predictable turns I could be more easily avoided than a large, stationary group and, for my part, I could more easily take evasive action (except, of course, from someone behind me/outside my field of vision, or hearing.) I think I've misunderstood something here - we probably need pictures! Meanwhile, I am in practice taking your advice and trying to pick my turns within the carnage of the middle of a crowded piste nowadays.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| KSH wrote: |
| I think I may have posted before that what has increased my nervousness of collisions lately, apart from increased traffic on the slopes generally, is the increase in boy racers (not always boys) who straightline down the edges of pistes, where there may be people either taking a breather or doing as I used to but rarely now do, short, controlled turns to avoid carnage in the middle of the piste. In other words, edges of pistes can be intrinsically unsafe. |
I tend to ski the edge of a piste. Firstly because any scraped off/windblown snow is likely to accumulate there and because you're less exposed to scud alley down the middle. Though people often seem to have an odd idea of standing to the side. When there is more than 12ft behind them they are going to be passed on the narrow side. |
You might not aware. Many instructors will leave a gap between their stopped group and the edge of the piste deliberately (I do). It is safer, because of those skiing fast towards the edge of the piste. It allows some room for them to escape. The rule in general is that unless you can clearly see that the area close to the edge of the piste is clear, don't ski there and certainly don't ski fast there. And it is not at all appreciated when a skier chooses to take that gap simply because they like skiing the edge of the piste. If you did it to anyone I was teaching you would know all about it. |
Pretty sure we then have a disagreement about what the Skiers Code actually says. If I'm skiing within say 9ft of the Piste edge and you position your class 15ft from the edge you're requiring me to divert at least 15ft from my line to pass on the open side. Seems pretty arrogant.
(NB we're talking noodly short turns not any attempt to punch a landspeed record)
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
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If I'm skiing within say 9ft of the Piste edge and you position your class 15ft from the edge you're requiring me to divert at least 15ft from my line to pass on the open side. Seems pretty arrogant.
(NB we're talking noodly short turns not any attempt to punch a landspeed record)
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Exactly. And I don't really see what the benefit is to anybody in that scenario. Perhaps zikomo will be able to explain.
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You know it makes sense.
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But of course nothing is going to solve the problem of idiots straightlining down that gap, whatever its width, which is I'm now nervous of being in that area at all.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| shep wrote: |
| The piste-edge skier is likely being responsible for the reasons dotm stated above. Don't forget you and your stationary group are part of the problem, so it's hard for you to claim the moral high-ground; we all just have to be cool and get along. |
I can't help feeling sometimes that everyone else on piste is the problem, or rather perhaps, the challenge, as we all have the right to be there, doing our own thing, but watching out for each other whether singly or in groups. It's never going to be perfect as attention always fails from time to time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| shep wrote: |
| I stand corrected - between 10 and 15 (discounting avalanche, rando and heart-failures) depending on which source you take. What a safe lot we all are. I'm even more amazed! |
@shep, I've probably got it all wrong, but using your figures and the following stats, I make driving in the UK 2 to 3 times safer than skiing. Skiing certainly doesn't feel as safe as driving but that's perception for you.
330 billion miles driven per year (2023)
52.5 million driving licence holders
1624 deaths (2023)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@shep, @motyl, good point. At or near the edge of the piste, we all have the right to be where we are (assuming we're not mowing down people in front of us) or, put another way, we're all guilty of just being where we are and, inevitably, being in the way of someone who wants to go faster in that area.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I guess sometimes we just have to slow right down and accept that we can't safely go any faster. Just as we do on the roads. I read a Facebook post recently by someone I know who was complaining about people on the inside lane of a motorway doing 50 mph so that lorries who wanted to do their 60 mph had to be out in "his lane", overtaking them. He also complained that people watching their speedometer, with a view to doing 70, were actually doing 67 (because speedos are always set to under-read) thus thwarting his wish to drive at the 70 mph which his accurate cruise control could achieve.
Diddums, I thought. But didn't write......
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| motyl wrote: |
| @shep, I've probably got it all wrong |
Not at all, although I'd say it's almost impossible to be comparing apples to apples. Seeing the goings-on on an icy piste, skiing feels orders of magnitude more dangerous than driving; but then navigating a busy wet motorway in the dark, the inverse seems true...! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Origen wrote: |
| I guess sometimes we just have to slow right down and accept that we can't safely go any faster. |
Yes, this. Or sometimes keep up with the flow of traffic and accept that it's not a safe place to dawdle. 
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| KSH wrote: |
| I think I may have posted before that what has increased my nervousness of collisions lately, apart from increased traffic on the slopes generally, is the increase in boy racers (not always boys) who straightline down the edges of pistes, where there may be people either taking a breather or doing as I used to but rarely now do, short, controlled turns to avoid carnage in the middle of the piste. In other words, edges of pistes can be intrinsically unsafe. |
I tend to ski the edge of a piste. Firstly because any scraped off/windblown snow is likely to accumulate there and because you're less exposed to scud alley down the middle. Though people often seem to have an odd idea of standing to the side. When there is more than 12ft behind them they are going to be passed on the narrow side. |
You might not aware. Many instructors will leave a gap between their stopped group and the edge of the piste deliberately (I do). It is safer, because of those skiing fast towards the edge of the piste. It allows some room for them to escape. The rule in general is that unless you can clearly see that the area close to the edge of the piste is clear, don't ski there and certainly don't ski fast there. And it is not at all appreciated when a skier chooses to take that gap simply because they like skiing the edge of the piste. If you did it to anyone I was teaching you would know all about it. |
Pretty sure we then have a disagreement about what the Skiers Code actually says. If I'm skiing within say 9ft of the Piste edge and you position your class 15ft from the edge you're requiring me to divert at least 15ft from my line to pass on the open side. Seems pretty arrogant.
(NB we're talking noodly short turns not any attempt to punch a landspeed record) |
I made no comment about eh skiers code. None at all. So there is no disagreement there and it's weird that you think there is.
The arrogance is to imagine it is a good idea to ski between a stopped ski school class and the edge of the piste. The gap to do so will have been left precisely because there are many arrogant and selfish skiers on the pistes, but that does not make it ok to use it. There is a point where the class could NOT be said to be stopped at the side of the piste (i.e. a distance from the edge that is beyond reasonable), in which case it is fine to pass either side. Ski lessons are in everyone's interest and they have to stop sometimes to make the teaching work, so have some consideration and stay well clear. Just because you are "allowed" to do something does not mean that you should, or that you are not being arrogant and selfish by doing it. I do't care how good the skier is, if there is a meter or two between the class and the edge then anyone who chooses to use that gap is a selfish t**t. The only circumstances where that is acceptable is when taking evasive action and that is the only option. At the least you will scare some of the class (who may be struggling with confidence to begin with) and you will definitely disturb the teaching. I am not saying that you do this, but that it is something you should be aware of and avoid if at all possible. It is clear that there are some here who DO deliberately stick to the edge of the piste regardless of who is standing near to the edge and deliberately choose to use the gap on the inside, for no good reason other than because they can (or to show some beginners what amazing skiers they are).
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You're the one making assumptions. My skiing the edge has nothing to do with showing off and everything to do with avoiding traffic ( both mid slope traversers and scud alley) as well as avoiding the higher wear area of the piste. If you choose to position your class so there is an open side and a skiable blindside I will choose a side based on traffic. I won't take a blindside if I am uncomfortable with my evasion options.
Of course I don't actively seek out dense instruction slopes nor am I interested in human slalom ( unlike say certain race kids when freeskiing) so I haven't fortunately had any instructor justice warriors like yourself chase me down and give me a good thrashing for being a naughty boy. I have had an incident with a French racecoach who was the one overtaking me who cut within a foot in front of me then told me it was my fault as I turned the wrong way and there was no code so forgive me if I do not accept the infallibility of "pros" when it comes to humility and good on piste behaviour.
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@zikomo, I think that, if I were skiing 'near' the edge of the piste* and I saw a ski class parked ahead, I wouldn't, as it were, overtake on the inside, unless that class were carelessly and selfishly parked a long way from the edge/potentially obstructing the middle of the piste, which we all know does happen. I doubt that DotM would either. That said, I don't understand and I don't think he does either, why it is a heinous crime to ski, in a controlled fashion, in that area, if it is wide enough, available, and subject as above. Would you care to explain, preferably without suggesting that we are selfish tw'ts, which I don't think either of us is?
*I've already explained that I have become disinclined to do this, for fear of the actual tw'ts who speed down there when the piste is snarled up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@KSH, +1
@zikomo, you post some really good stuff but are becoming increasingly sanctimonious, which is a shame
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@KSH, @Dave of the Marmottes, Might be worthwhile reading what I actually wrote rather than responding so indignantly.
| zikomo wrote: |
| I am not saying that you do this, but that it is something you should be aware of and avoid if at all possible. It is clear that there are some here who DO deliberately stick to the edge of the piste regardless of who is standing near to the edge and deliberately choose to use the gap on the inside, for no good reason other than because they can (or to show some beginners what amazing skiers they are). |
I also specifically said that of course there is a point at which a class would NOT be considered to have stopped at the edge of the piste, beyond a certain distance from the edge. You seem to have chosen to miss reading that bit also.
I think I have explained adequately. If a class (or anyone else for that matter) stops reasonably close to the edge but does leave a bit of a cap, do not utilise that gap if you can possibly avoid doing so. It is clear from the response of @Dave of the Marmottes, that he believes his right to avoid traffic (and he is correct that he does have the right), justifies using that gap. As I said, just because you have the right does not make it the right thing to do. The gap is there precisely because many will not adjust their line and speed appropriately when others are stopped close to the edge of the piste, and will use the the smallest gap because they can. So the safest thing to do is to leave a somewhat bigger gap so that the risks are somewhat mitigated.
And unless you often use a small gap (1-2m) between a class and the edge of the piste just because you want to and have the "right" to do so, I certainly did not call you a selfish t**t. The only way that you could have come to that conclusion is if the shoe fits.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@zikomo,
a) I am not indignant
b) I can read and did read what you wrote
c) you have not answered any of the fairly specific questions I have put to you in this thread, either the most recent or the earlier ones
But, since your last comment typifies your approach generally, I shall engage with you no further.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Or sometimes keep up with the flow of traffic and accept that it's not a safe place to dawdle
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The typical "run down to the village", which is often blue, sometimes not in great nick by the end of the day and on which there are often quite a lot of beginners absolutely NEEDS to be a safe place to dawdle. And the last thing we need is inexperienced skiers being pushed into skiing faster than they can safely control their speed and line because it doesn't seem "safe" to go any slower and risk having people shooting past, too close.
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No we're mainly curious because you seem intent on educating us as to some unwritten "rule" created by the world's ski police, the union of righteous ski instructors that they alone can set invisible boundaries within a public ski piste where people can and cannot safely ski. If we understand you the gap is necessary in case someone reckless skis there but someone isn't allowed to safely ( in full control) pass you there regardless of whether it is the safest option overall on a busy piste.
I have sympathy for instructors in that everytime they stop a group on a busy piste they de facto stand them in danger. It doesn't mean everyone else is an objective danger to them.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think there should be "speed limits" on Green and Blue runs - in the majority of resorts there are plenty of red alternatives if people want speed. By there very nature there will be beginners and low intermediates on the Green and Blue runs - and they will not be on the Reds and Blacks.
Particularly the "run down to the village" routes where the less experienced have no choice but to use those particular routes.
I just don't understand what's so great about going down a blue/green at great speed, using other skiers as slalom gates - particularly the people who go down roads sitting back on their skis - I find it hard to believe that if they were on a collision course with a skier below them, or the skier makes a sudden unexpected turn, that they would be able to control their speed or direction.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ScaredySki wrote: |
I think there should be "speed limits" on Green and Blue runs - in the majority of resorts there are plenty of red alternatives if people want speed. By there very nature there will be beginners and low intermediates on the Green and Blue runs - and they will not be on the Reds and Blacks.
Particularly the "run down to the village" routes where the less experienced have no choice but to use those particular routes.
I just don't understand what's so great about going down a blue/green at great speed, using other skiers as slalom gates - particularly the people who go down roads sitting back on their skis - I find it hard to believe that if they were on a collision course with a skier below them, or the skier makes a sudden unexpected turn, that they would be able to control their speed or direction. |
My preference would be more North American style piste patrollers operating in such locations, with the power to remove passes. If someone resists, permitted to hold them until gendarmerie or similar arrive.
Once established, the deterrent factor, reckless skiing amongst slow/tentative slope users would diminish.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting that when we did our Canadian Instructor training in Andorra over a decade ago the format was always to bring a class to stop at the side of the piste. Skiing here in Austria now we have observed that the local instructors never stop at the side, but assemble classes in the middle of the piste. Do wonder whether there have been incidents to force an obvious change in policy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| RobinS wrote: |
| Interesting that when we did our Canadian Instructor training in Andorra over a decade ago the format was always to bring a class to stop at the side of the piste. Skiing here in Austria now we have observed that the local instructors never stop at the side, but assemble classes in the middle of the piste. Do wonder whether there have been incidents to force an obvious change in policy. |
Depends where/what I am teaching. Nursery slopes for us are wide and are not access to anywhere else so while there may be incidental higher speed traffic across the top of some areas if anyone is skiing down them then it is because they have chosen to, not to access elsewhere. There are certain terrain features that we need to use to teach certain elements i.e. side slipping that mean we can't be at the edge of the Piste or early turns where a consistent gradient/terrain is an advantage. On our steepest blue it is so wide we effectively have 3 or 4 lanes of traffic with good visibility across the widest parts of the slope. The biggest problem on that slope is German school kids that are consistently out of control which means nowhere is safe, I have been known to go there with a group and leave immediately. When we get onto reds or I teach in other areas I usually stop close to the edge with enough room behind the group to make a turn to join the bottom of the group. If it is busy I am going to explain a new drill etc then once the last person is in place I will move them back right to the edge of the piste to prevent the d*ckheads from going behind them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Snow&skifan wrote: |
My preference would be more North American style piste patrollers operating in such locations, with the power to remove passes. If someone resists, permitted to hold them until gendarmerie or similar arrive.
Once established, the deterrent factor, reckless skiing amongst slow/tentative slope users would diminish. |
Doesn't really happen. For all the talk there are almost no resorts that actually have speed cops to do anything other than ineffectual arm waving. In some place patrollers are explicitly told not to hunt down reckless skiers so as not to spoil the "guest experience".
Me - I'd willingly volunteer to paint douchebags with an RFID sniper rifle. " Oh your pass is coming up "C**T" guess no more rides today......"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In amongst all this “you are blocking me” what happened to “downhill skier has the right of way”?
No one ever taught me there were different lanes on a piste and which was the overtaking lane.
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Only time I’ve ever taken a pass off someone was when they went through 4 sets of ropes, ignored repeated warnings shouted at them, tried to change a closed sign to open, and dropped into some dicey terrain right above several hundred people on a groomer below.
Even then they argued back.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Doesn't really happen. For all the talk there are almost no resorts that actually have speed cops to do anything other than ineffectual arm waving. In some place patrollers are explicitly told not to hunt down ... |
Blackcomb has speed cops on that bottom bit each day and they are effective. I doubt they have to chase folk down; that's not the way it works.
@ Sun peaks all the green stuff is a slow zone. It works there too. It's mostly a consensus thing, but the culture is overall more respectful so it seems to work.
There's plenty of mountain to ride fast on; speed cops just remind us we're not on those bits.
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| phil_w wrote: |
Blackcomb has speed cops on that bottom bit each day and they are effective. I doubt they have to chase folk down; that's not the way it works.
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That s the main place I think of. I did get busted on a board on an empty groomer at Mammoth once and called the volley guy a biased old fart given I skied past him much faster ( but still not Fast) about 15 mins earlier on my way to change kit.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 24-01-25 23:54; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I was busted at the Star for doing an inverted aerial. The patroller was a bit snotty, I had a pocket full of comped tickets, and it was my mate who'd been upside down. I let him do his thing and managed not to laugh until he'd gone. Taking my headgear off probably helped: he thought I was about a third of my age I would guess.
My tactics with the speed cops is to eyeball them whilst doing some fancy but obviously controlled stuff, then look for the next one once their gaze passes on.
I'm sure that Blackcomb bit would not work safely without them. They should redesign it though
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@zikomo, I'm confused. Why would it not make sense to stop your group at the edge to it is obvious that skiers need to pass inside you? This seems a much more efficient use of piste space. If you leave me a channel on the outside I would assume you left it for me to be used. Why else leave it?
To be clear, I would only use that channel at a speed that I felt very comfortable I could avoid problems. But leaving that channel INVITES people to use it.
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