 Poster: A snowHead
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
...the newspaper reports have very little info, but suggests that the guy who was hit was below the brow of a hill.
Probably a wake up call to remember always to only stop at the sides of a piste, and be in full sight of anyone coming down the hill. |
Awful incident. RIP. Hope the skied-into guy makes a full recovery.
Another wake up call would be to remember to slow down and check what's below when you approach a brow, or anything else that prevents clear sight of what is immediately below, before committing to the next part of the piste. (Could be huge moguls, a crashed ski school etc.) Not saying the lady concerned was gung ho approaching a brow etc, as 60+ ladies tend not to be gung ho on the piste, so an accidental loss of control earlier feels most likely.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
The helmet means that the deceleration is less rapid and hence the forces are smaller.
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Yes. The only possible argument would be people ski faster and take more risks while wearing helmets than without, which would change the forces involved.
A bit of topic, but related to the title "not just avalanches", I believe in n America there used to be more tree well deaths than avalanche deaths.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@boarder2020, correct - on average, tree wells or Deep Snow Immersion claim around 4-5 lives at ski resorts in the US every year.
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But outstripped by heart attacks - people travel to altitude from low elevation homes and over exert themselves and blunt force trauma - hitting trees, furniture, other people.
Avalanches barely feature in US resorts except for poachers and sidecountry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Avalanches barely feature in US resorts except for poachers and sidecountry. |
It better be!
Resorts are supposed ti secure all their inbound terrain from avalanches. If there’s death from avalanches inbound, ski patrol made a rare mistake!
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Yeah what he/she said - it's quite hard to compare like with like between Europe and North America, for lots of different reasons.
The NSAA is at least a good source of data, but I believe it's "within resort boundary" stuff only, which doesn't really map onto Europe in any sensible way. Their fatalities report for last season has, on "cause":
| NSAA wrote: |
The primary causes of fatal incidents are collisions with trees and the snow surface itself.
Collisions with trees is the major cause of fatalities during the 2023/24 season, making up nearly half of all fatalities.
Snow immersion fatalities, including tree wells, were down in the 2023/24 season, but they still constituted roughly ten percent of all fatalities; however, skiers and riders, especially in the Rocky Mountain and Pacific regions, should make themselves aware of the risks that come with heavy snowfall and skiing off-piste or in glades in any conditions. Learn more at deepsnowsafety.org. |
Of course folk don't enjoy whining on the internet about the ever worsening dangers of trees and the snow surface itself for some reason 
Back to what was said - obviously this is all in patrolled and controlled terrain. To compare with Europe you'd have to look only at fatalities on similar terrain, which there would be piste only.
But the risk from tree wells even is really small.
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| Quote: |
But the risk from tree wells even is really small
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All the risks are pretty small, aren't they? An incident like this (and we do hear about a high proportion of those that occur) creates pages of speculation. We (meaning well off people in "developed economies") run lives of historically very low risk
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| Origen wrote: |
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But the risk from tree wells even is really small
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All the risks are pretty small, aren't they? An incident like this (and we do hear about a high proportion of those that occur) creates pages of speculation. We (meaning well off people in "developed economies") run lives of historically very low risk |
But the absolute level of risk doesn't mean that mitigation attempts aren't entirely sensible whether that be general awareness/education or active avoidance of higher risk situations (like don't stand in the fall line below large icy patches). Recognising high risk of fall/long slide conditions may be part of that.
The specifics of any individual incident probably matter less than i) cultivating a mindset that skiing holidays aren't Disneyland and ii) many "accidents" can be avoided or at leaset mitigated.
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| jedster wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
@jedster, you've never seen a fallen skier accelerate down a steep, icy run?
Sadly, I suspect earlier suggestions are more likely but we'll see in time. |
Yes I have. I've done it too. Just not really at fatal collision type speed because typically a chunk of the skiing pace was taken off in the fall. But I guess if you hit someones ski boot with your unhelmeted head.... |
I've also had this happen. I had not checked the DIN (set at 4) on the rental binding and I skied out of it on Harikiri in Mayrhofen. I was doing 40kmh when it let go and was doing 60 when I eventually got to the side of the piste (it curves to the left towards the bottom) where my mate was standing (he was looking downhill so didn't see me coming). I went through his boot with my thigh causing a dinner plate sized hematoma on my leg. Fortunately he was fine and so was I. Another mate who saw the incident was SURE someone was going home in the blood wagon) I know the speeds as I had my Garmin on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Origen wrote: |
| ... All the risks [associated with resort skiing] are pretty small, aren't they? An incident like this ... creates pages of speculation. We (meaning well off people in "developed economies") run lives of historically very low risk |
Indeed, although I look at it from a different perspective....
We're talking about someone losing control and dying as a consequence, and it's the very unlikeliness of that which is what makes it "remarkable". If it happened every day - like cars killing strangers on UK streets - we'd soon stop talking about it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
But the risk from tree wells even is really small
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All the risks are pretty small, aren't they? An incident like this (and we do hear about a high proportion of those that occur) creates pages of speculation. We (meaning well off people in "developed economies") run lives of historically very low risk |
Incidents of death? Yeah, tiny tiny.
For for every rare death we hear about, there’re many many more injuries we don’t hear about which ruin people’s holidays, even change their lives 
The risk of those aren’t as negligible. |
Life-changing injuries from recreational skiing are mercifully rare.
And minor injuries that ruin hols with minimal "real world" downsides thereafter are a fundamental aspect of a sport that is based round getting downhill from A to B on ice, with long, shiny, low-friction devices on your feet, in close proximity to other people and solid objects. It would be unrealistic to expect negligible risk of a sprain or a break whilst skiing. IIRC, disclaimers in your part of the world usually include something along the lines of "...residual risks will always remain and these cannot be removed without fundamentally changing the nature of the activity..."
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I have skied Aiguille Rouge a number of times over the past few years. It can be quite difficult in places and is certainly fast in other places. It is more of a challenge than enjoyable to me. It is not one of my favourites, more a must do.
There is a narrow red / black start that takes it out of you. You can take a wide black a little way down or join the wide red a bit further down. By the time I get to the red I am knackered and take a breather.
My heartfelt commiserations to all involved in this very sad tragedy.
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You know it makes sense.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| There is a lot of judgement here, which is despicable. We have no idea what actually happened, or if anyone was to blame. |
This.
Really easy to make massive assumptions based on our preexisting biases. One person was 'stood on a bump'- assume was in the middle of the piste- we don't know. The person who lost their life lost control and was in a violent collision. She was a she and 62 and British on a black in les Arcs. Easy to assume lacking in skill. For all we know she's a long time expert and current Master's skier with multiple runs of the Inferno and a FIS number to shame all of us. As someone else said anyone can catch an edge.
Helmets -I think the evidence shows reduce less serious but not fatal head injuries.
The only thing we can say is that this is a tragedy and our hearts go out to the families and everyone else involved.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| DirkPitt wrote: |
| 60+ ladies tend not to be gung ho on the piste, so an accidental loss of control earlier feels most likely. |
Not the ones I knew! They tend to do things like race for Livery Companies, the Inferno, belong to multiple ski clubs etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
the absolute level of risk doesn't mean that mitigation attempts aren't entirely sensible
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Absolutely. But having taken sensible mitigation measures (and in almost every case having rejected some potential mitigation measures) it makes sense to try not to remain anxious about risk. Anxiety is a risk in itself. Furs up arteries, apart from anything else.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@ed123,
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Helmets -I think the evidence shows reduce less serious but not fatal head injuries.
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Helmets can moderate accidents, they are obviously not protection against huge impacts. There is a reason that motorcycle helmets are different from ski helmets.
That said the basic logic and physics obviously implies that a helmet could prevent a marginally fatal head injury - i.e. it reduced the impact force just enough when that unmitigated force was only just enough to kill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ed123 wrote: |
| DirkPitt wrote: |
| 60+ ladies tend not to be gung ho on the piste, so an accidental loss of control earlier feels most likely. |
Not the ones I knew! They tend to do things like race for Livery Companies, the Inferno, belong to multiple ski clubs etc. |
I guess the characteristics of over 60s female skiers covers a broad spectrum, with your speciality being the tail of the distribution!
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| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
I can understand how it can happen on any slope
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Yes. And on easier slopes inexperienced skiers can easily build up enough momentum to damage themselves, and others in the event of a collision. |
A simple fall on a pisted black run can turn into a nightmare.
About 10 yrs ago, on the birthday bash, Northerngeezer and I were on the lift with a black run to the side of us. A skier fell near the top, nothing spectacular, just a simple fall but they started sliding & picking up speed, heading straight towards another skier stood near the edge of the piste.
The stood skier must have seen or heard something, but they just stood there and the sliding skier hit them with such force that the stood skier did a complete 360' flip.
By the time both skiers stopped sliding, neither was moving until the lift took us out of sight.
There were other skiers on the slope and we reported the incident to the lifty at the top. It really showed how a simple fall can rapidly escalate into something far more serious.
There could be parallels with the incident at Les Arcs
I've had a couple of near misses where actually hearing something has saved me from a hit, having a helmet that attenuates hearing or listening to music when skiing, seem like really bad ideas to me.
People talk about out of control skiers, quite clearly in this case the sliding skier was totally out of control, but if we are to be hung out after a simple fall,?
The speeding skier that hits someone doing traverses is a different scenario
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
[
...but if we are to be hung out after a simple fall,?... |
Looks like this is exactly what Snowheads is for these days
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No-one can summise here - it is just tragic.
But I can't help wonder if the poor lady had stacked on a steep and was in a fast slide off her feet on a freshly groomed slope.
It is just irritating that the safety first nanny state mentalists in the press have to get in about bloody helmets, which I still think cause more collisions and stacks due to impaired vision than they aid with. I think people take more risks wearing one. I wear one now but due to pressure not preference and peripheral vision/hearing is reduced. But that is another well worn thread. Poor bloke needed one on his leg
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@sussexskibore, No, but we can (and do) surmise
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| @sussexskibore, No, but we can (and do) surmise |
You noticed the irony there
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@sussexskibore, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The whole helmet thing and personal beliefs/rants about them is largely irrelevant in this case. I find it useful that the information is routinely included in news reporting because it helps us form a view as to the victims' attitude to basic mitigation.
I find attitudes to control interesting as in there seems to be an emergent view that falling and sliding is somehow more innocent than staying upright but being out of control when the root cause may be similar whether it is overterraining or something else.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jedster wrote: |
Yes I have. I've done it too. Just not really at fatal collision type speed because typically a chunk of the skiing pace was taken off in the fall. But I guess if you hit someones ski boot with your unhelmeted head.... |
The fatal speed for a fall is zero. Really, people do have absolutely no idea about statistics and probability and thus risk. In a skiing context, one is always reminded of the death of Natasha Richardson. More generally, ~50 people a year die in the U.K. getting dressed in the morning. Just because "typically" speed is lost in a fall does not mean speed is "always" lost in fall. Anyone who has been skiing for some years will have seen people fall and accelerate down hill if not have it happen to themselves. We don't even know if the lady died from the fall.
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The fatal speed for a fall is zero.
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Deceleration trauma 
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You know it makes sense.
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| sussexskibore wrote: |
| But I can't help wonder if the poor lady had stacked on a steep and was in a fast slide off her feet on a freshly groomed slope. |
A couple of years ago, I was on a blue run in Alleghe, and paused while an instructor and child completed a turn below me.
I caught an edge and my binding released, causing me to fall. The piste was very scraped.
From a standing start, I quickly picked up speed whilst I tried to get my legs and remaining ski below me.
I slid over 100m before I managed to stop.
You don't have to be skiing "on the edge" to have an uncontrolled slide after a fall.
It can happen to anyone, any time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| halfhand wrote: |
| Quote: |
The fatal speed for a fall is zero.
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Deceleration trauma |
This is why teaching kids to ski early is best. F=MA
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Poster: A snowHead
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A client of mine got hit while stationary at a lift queue a few weeks ago, split the inner styrofoam part of the helmet in two pieces but fortunately only a concussion.. I always tell my guys to keep an eye out uphill while stationary and if I stop for a chat always go below em and look uphill. In my mind more risk of injury getting hit these days by someone rather than crashing/falling yourself..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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From my experience working on Patrol when it's something as traumatic as this which causes death there is usually no one specific thing. Could have been a million things, it's the stopping by hitting an object that doesn't help. I've dealt with head injuries and traumatic arrests caused by varying factors, sometimes the person was moving sometimes they weren't. I'd not bother trying to guess but it's quite rare to be fair and not much fun for anyone. Not nice to read this I'm afraid. Last bad one i had was someone fell over in the car park though so there you go !
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I always tell my guys to keep an eye out uphill while stationary and if I stop for a chat always go below em and look uphill. |
This was what I was taught as a kid at Hillend and Glenshee.
Plus, stop at the side of a piste* and never just over a blind crest.
It kinda rips my knitting if I'm skiing with someone who wasnt taught these - pretty obvious - things and stops above me.......especially if the are no very good and do that "sway and almost fall over" thing !!
*appreciating that its now de rigeur for some fast skiers to hoon it right next to the poles..........
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DirkPitt wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
But the risk from tree wells even is really small
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All the risks are pretty small, aren't they? An incident like this (and we do hear about a high proportion of those that occur) creates pages of speculation. We (meaning well off people in "developed economies") run lives of historically very low risk |
Incidents of death? Yeah, tiny tiny.
For for every rare death we hear about, there’re many many more injuries we don’t hear about which ruin people’s holidays, even change their lives
The risk of those aren’t as negligible. |
Life-changing injuries from recreational skiing are mercifully rare.
And minor injuries that ruin hols with minimal "real world" downsides thereafter are a fundamental aspect of a sport that is based round getting downhill from A to B on ice, with long, shiny, low-friction devices on your feet, in close proximity to other people and solid objects. It would be unrealistic to expect negligible risk of a sprain or a break whilst skiing. IIRC, disclaimers in your part of the world usually include something along the lines of "...residual risks will always remain and these cannot be removed without fundamentally changing the nature of the activity..." |
Most of us accept that risk from our own mistakes.
But when those sprains and breaks are due to mistake by others, I’m not so sure everyone accepts those risks quite as gracefully.
And when those sprains and breaks are due to recklessness of others, I doubt you would accept that as readily.
I also disagree on the “minimal real world downsides” of many of those injuries. A good deal of what people call “aches and pains” in their 60’s are results of such “minor” injuries in their younger days. Some of them resulting in limiting factors in their recreation thereafter (e.g. no longer able to play tennis due to torn rotator cuff), even if not professional impact (e.g. a shattered wrist for a concert violinist)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ahh the helmet debate.
TBH for skiing, just like mountain biking, I think the argument should be settled; Helmets don't make any difference to fatality rates, but there are an awful lot of minor injuries they prevent (IIRC current data for skiing is an 80% reduction in ski patrol call outs for head injuries, but no reduction in KSI's); Using a helmet to avoid needing to be bloodwaggoned down to the local clinic to be stitched up after slicing head open on ski edge is well worth it, even if the injury doesn't need a hospital; Even if you are fit to ski once cuts are glued/stitched, its still a day or twos skiing lost, an expensive ride and moderate pain; As well as occupying piste patrol reducing availability for more serious incidents...)
Unlike road cycling, where mitigatable accidents are several orders of magnitude less frequent than skiing or mountain biking, head injuries being less likely than walking for an average adult, giving a much more solid argument against people saying everyone should wear helmets (though obviously helmet usage should be a choice - Noone should be telling you you need a helmet to cycle on roads, but it is a perfectly reasonable decision when co-factors could make head injuries more likely (icy roads, mix of on/off road, health issues, etc).
Of course the responses here show the biggest issue, especially for road cycling; Someone died so we are going to discuss helmets, ignoring that because impact energy increases exponentially, while helmets provide a fixed level of protection, they quickly become irrelevent in the most severe collisions compared to lots of other far more effective mitigations (for skiing - slow down, get lessons, stop in safe locations, don't get drunk, avoid pistes beyond capability, consider piste condition, control of numbers (i.e. are we allowing some pistes to get too busy to avoid increasing prices)). Or for where the argument about helmets is still valid, road cycling, infrastructure (i.e. separate cars and bikes), enforcement (i.e. dealing with drivers intentionally risking cyclists lives), training (for both cyclists and drivers), regular exercise (i.e. health benefits from cycling) are all several orders of magnitude more important than helmets in injury reduction/health improvement...
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Having spent a very busy weekend on hard fast pistes watching thousands of people skiing on and beyond the limit of control there is absolutely no doubt that most people with any sense of self preservation would not be as fast and out of control if they were not wearing helmets unless they were drunk, which of course some were!
They may reduce the number of injuries overall, but I have a sneaky suspicion they increase the severity of crashes by encouraging reckless skiing and boarding.
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would not be as fast and out of control if they were not wearing helmets
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I do think there will be some that go a bit faster while wearing a helmet. However, I'm not sure that's true of everyone, and even for those it is I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. I.e. the cautious skier doesn't put on a helmet and start skiing ridiculously dangerously, and the speed demon doesn't take off the helmet and start skiing super conservatively.
For people skiing faster I'd put all the following way ahead of helmets:
- GoPros (or filming in general)
- GPX/ski tracks allowing people to quantify and try to beat their top speeds.
- alcohol
- Piste bashing
- Better equipment making it easier to go fast
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@boarder2020, point taken. I would also add that 90% this weekend were skiing on race carving skis and only 10% really knew how to carve.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
would not be as fast and out of control if they were not wearing helmets
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I do think there will be some that go a bit faster while wearing a helmet. However, I'm not sure that's true of everyone, and even for those it is I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. I.e. the cautious skier doesn't put on a helmet and start skiing ridiculously dangerously, and the speed demon doesn't take off the helmet and start skiing super conservatively.
For people skiing faster I'd put all the following way ahead of helmets:
- GoPros (or filming in general)
- GPX/ski tracks allowing people to quantify and try to beat their top speeds.
- alcohol
- Piste bashing
- Better equipment making it easier to go fast |
Add to that list
- helmet mask the sound and force of wind rushing by, making the skier “feel” he’s skiing slower than what he really going. As a result, the skier skis faster without realizing it.
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| orange wrote: |
| From my experience working on Patrol when it's something as traumatic as this which causes death there is usually no one specific thing. Could have been a million things, it's the stopping by hitting an object that doesn't help. I've dealt with head injuries and traumatic arrests caused by varying factors, sometimes the person was moving sometimes they weren't. I'd not bother trying to guess but it's quite rare to be fair and not much fun for anyone. Not nice to read this I'm afraid. Last bad one i had was someone fell over in the car park though so there you go ! |
My perspective exactly. As you say, it’s possible to die falling over in a car park or coming out of a building onto a slippery pavement (Queen’s brother IIRC).
As you also say, we don’t know the unique set of factors, and they are likely to be myriad, that lead to this so it’s inadvisable to speculate without facts or to apportion undue weight to any particular one.
However, I think the real takeaway from this is that we need to take sensible precautions but not worry overly since even wrapping oneself in cotton wool (metaphorically) doesn’t guarantee safety. Live before you die and don’t worry unduly about that inevitability.
Commiserations to all those involved, including the rescue team.
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FAQ
