 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
It says she lost control on a black run. Different to out of control i’d say but circumstances are not known so your guess is as good as mine.
What a horrible accident for all concerned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I'd say that's a semantic pinhead. Clearly once you lose control you are out of control.
Regardless the real question will be did she have the skill level to be on the slope at the time and unlikely that will ever be answered.
Horrible for all concerned no doubt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I can understand how it can happen on any slope.
It's pretty easy for a skier to be traveling 40-50mph. Doesn't need you to be doing anything insane to get up to that speed even on a relatively gentle slope. Just point the skis downhill for a bit and you'd be going quickly. If you lose control and hit something hard at that speed you could easily do lots of damage.
Sounds like a horrible accident to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
I'd say that's a semantic pinhead. Clearly once you lose control you are out of control.
Regardless the real question will be did she have the skill level to be on the slope at the time and unlikely that will ever be answered.
Horrible for all concerned no doubt. |
She might have just caught an edge and fallen further up the slope and slid down it. Show me a skier who says they've never done that...
Tragic but I'll wait for more information before I condem her.
In the meantime, take care out there everyone and look after yourself. Stop in safe places and still keeping an eye out for what may be coming your way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I can understand how it can happen on any slope
|
Yes. And on easier slopes inexperienced skiers can easily build up enough momentum to damage themselves, and others in the event of a collision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| adithorp wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
I'd say that's a semantic pinhead. Clearly once you lose control you are out of control.
Regardless the real question will be did she have the skill level to be on the slope at the time and unlikely that will ever be answered.
Horrible for all concerned no doubt. |
She might have just caught an edge and fallen further up the slope and slid down it. Show me a skier who says they've never done that...
Tragic but I'll wait for more information before I condem her.
In the meantime, take care out there everyone and look after yourself. Stop in safe places and still keeping an eye out for what may be coming your way. |
I'm not suggesting she was being reckless but I don't think your suggestion rings true - if she had any length of slide she would have lost some speed and the consequences wouldn't have been so terrible. Hard not to believe she was too fast/close for safety (for which there could be several explanations).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| adithorp wrote: |
She might have just caught an edge and fallen further up the slope and slid down it. Show me a skier who says they've never done that...
|
Yep I had a slide on the glacier at VT back when they still had a lift there.
What made that more disconcerting was, despite my attempts at edge arrest on the ice I slowed but could not stop, yet a bloke and his kid continued to stand resolutely in my slide path at the bottom despite me shouting. Fortunately I was able to stop just above them.
Nevertheless I think to die instantly though traumatic impact injury you probably need some significant momentum.
It may be just one of those things but like the bloke who killed himself on the Wall, the coroner will probably never really apportion culpability.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@jedster, you've never seen a fallen skier accelerate down a steep, icy run?
Sadly, I suspect earlier suggestions are more likely but we'll see in time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
I can understand how it can happen on any slope.
|
Actually the stats for n American resorts show there are more deaths from collisions on easier slopes (green and blue).
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
@boarder2020, is that not down to more footfall though. Added to that the busier the slope then the higher the chance of a collision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
And that doesn't surprise me in the least. You see a lot more out-of-control skiers on easy slopes. They might stay on their feet despite being out of control, but......
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@Dave of the Marmottes, A good call out and a danger that people are far more likely to see than a dramatic avalanche. There have been two deaths in the last few days the ski area just behind me where walkers have slid on paths. The piste patrol spent four hours at one incident and it is a small ski area so that is most of the staff involved in the rescue attempt (unsuccessful). In both cases the walkers had those little chain crampons you can put over shoes - great around town or on some of the flat walking trails in resort but not adapted to winter climbing.
The police have rescued a number of other people taking trails they know in the summer but have been surprised how difficult they are in the winter. Also a lot of on piste accidents as it rained quite high and pistes are icy below 2000-2200 meters.
https://youtube.com/shorts/gjJ8PYkWPjs
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 15-01-25 15:22; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Tuck & roll if out of control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
@dode, yes more people is part of the problem, but I think people ski them much faster than more difficult slopes. Probably exaggerated even more in n America by the fact in many resorts most blacks/double blacks are not groomed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
people ski them much faster than more difficult slopes
|
Exactly. And being still on their feet doesn't mean they're nailing it. Though that's probably exactly what they feel they're doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Gored wrote: |
| Tuck & roll if out of control. |
Not straighten the legs, trying to use boots etc as brakes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
stationery ≠ stationary. If you were "in control" you'd be able to avoid a stationary person => definitely not in control.
The daily mail says it was a "French 'death piste'". A "deadly black run". Strange that they don't describe the UK road system in similar terms; it kills thousands every year. And then I suspect they didn't describe polluting vehicles as "death vans" during their ULEZ opposition. Liars.
| b2020 wrote: |
| Actually the stats for n American resorts show there are more deaths from collisions on easier slopes (green and blue). |
Aye.
-- not directly related to this incident....
Tortin last season was a brilliant example of a difficult run attracting novices, so much so that we had to stop and wait at one point for a gap in the falling people & gear. I think you get that a lot when the top looks easy. Mont Gelé is an example of a wally stopper start, and in my brief visit I did not see falling folk on there. So that's probably objectively safer, if also possibly harder.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I'm no expert. I think Ali Ross and Phil Smith taught me to do that, if you can in the moment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Black runs are often less crowded than the red or blue alternatives.
Any comment is speculation since the newspaper reports have very little info, but suggests that the guy who was hit was below the brow of a hill.
Probably a wake up call to remember always to only stop at the sides of a piste, and be in full sight of anyone coming down the hill.
I witnessed an accident last year which could have been really nasty, when a drunk skier flew out of some trees (I think he had been having a pee) into a track, taking out one of our party at waist height. Fortunately little damage, but a reminder that it doesn’t matter how good you are, there is stuff that will happen that you cannot protect yourself from.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
there is stuff that will happen that you cannot protect yourself from
|
Like all those other drivers on every road we are ever on. Or a brain tumour. We know nothing about this accident. The poor woman who died might have broken her neck in a freak fall - the sort of thing we've all got up and walked away from. RIP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I think while obviously there can be entirely innocent accidents what I'm trying to highlight is that they are rare compared to circumstances where people make one or more errors from over-terraining themselves (or quite possibly other members of their party) to over assessment of abilities to simple recklessness. The teen/20 somethings straightlining blue runs in the backseat exhibit at least the 2 latter flaws. They may be perfectly fine at dynamic balancing but put something unexpected in their path and all bets are off.
I can think of an example the other week where I was dropping into a black piste from a cattrack. The first pitch was steeper than the rest and a combination of wind polish and lack of recent snowfall made the surface slick. I almost certainly could have stuck proper turns but I opted to powerslide it with one pivot. Why risk a fall n slide? Of course I further contributed to the slickness no doubt.
And yes echo all the Protect Yo'self advice, someone out of control does need an object to hit, don't let it be you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| jedster wrote: |
| ...if she had any length of slide she would have lost some speed and the consequences wouldn't have been so terrible. |
I take it you're in Les Arcs ATM so familiar with the conditions out there then? I know 2 weeks ago in the Austria I did a black where the bottom pitch was just sheet ice and it was a lot of work to stay in a neutral position and slip/slide diagonally to the side of the piste where there was some snow where I could reset. I know if I'd lost it at any point, well nothing would have stopped me till I hit the bottom! And of course you seem to be assuming a live skier and while we know she was a fatality we don't know how/when. If she'd had a heart attack part way down the slope, or hit her head and lost consciousness with her initial fall she wouldn't have been in any position to try and arrest her slide/bleed off speed.
| DavidYacht wrote: |
| Probably a wake up call to remember always to only stop at the sides of a piste, and be in full sight of anyone coming down the hill. |
Was their something in one of the articles saying the stationary skier wasn't at the side of the piste? Without knowing more about the accident he could well have been in a perfect FIS 'stopped on piste' position but unless he was looking up the hill for people heading at him he may well not have seen or heard her coming, at least with enough time to react to get out the way (if you're in the middle of blowing your nose at the side of the piste and someone shouted "Look out!" it would still take you probably 10 seconds to react and actually be slid and out of the way).
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| adithorp wrote: |
@jedster, you've never seen a fallen skier accelerate down a steep, icy run?
Sadly, I suspect earlier suggestions are more likely but we'll see in time. |
Yes I have. I've done it too. Just not really at fatal collision type speed because typically a chunk of the skiing pace was taken off in the fall. But I guess if you hit someones ski boot with your unhelmeted head....
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| DavidYacht wrote: |
| Probably a wake up call to remember always to only stop at the sides of a piste, and be in full sight of anyone coming down the hill. |
This, plus maintain awareness by looking uphill. Sometimes the projectile is sliding down the side of the piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
But I guess if you hit someones ski boot with your unhelmeted head....
|
Or hit the side of somebody's knee with your helmeted head. Nobody died but this happened to someone I know - she was with a child at the edge of the piste, wiping the child's nose, when a small, heavy, child in a death tuck (we've all seen them) slammed into her leg and did more damage than the best Austrian surgeons could repair. Helmets make you safer, but they can make you a more lethal weapon if you hit somebody else.
There will presumably be a post mortem on the skier who died.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
there is stuff that will happen that you cannot protect yourself from
|
Like all those other drivers on every road we are ever on. Or a brain tumour. We know nothing about this accident. The poor woman who died might have broken her neck in a freak fall - the sort of thing we've all got up and walked away from. RIP. |
That was my thinking. It's very possible to have incredibly traumatic injuries from an incident you'd walk away from on any other day.
Last week I tomahawked into a snow drift, got up and carried on completely unharmed. Another day, might not have been so lucky for the third tumble to be into 3 foot of snow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
There is a lot of judgement here, which is despicable. We have no idea what actually happened, or if anyone was to blame.
But there is a lesson about awareness on the slopes. Choose your spot to stop carefully. Maintain awareness, especially keep an eye on what is happening uphill. I certainly do this when teaching, and my kids were all taught to make sure they keep an eye on what is happening above them as well as below them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| jedster wrote: |
| But I guess if you hit someones ski boot with your unhelmeted head.... |
The Independent article actually specified "Both victims were wearing helmets, the reports added." - from which I assumed the author must be a SH 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
“The man she collided with had been stationary at the time after he had stopped on a 'bump' below the main track, according to Philippe Janin, director of slope safety in the Les Arcs area. Janin said the piste had been 'well-groomed' at the time of the collision.” Quote from the Mail online.
Not trying to be judgmental in any way, more alerting to the dangers of where you stop, not being aware of who is coming down the hill or coming from the sides.
My condolences to all those affected, there by the grace of god …
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
But I guess if you hit someones ski boot with your unhelmeted head....
|
Or hit the side of somebody's knee with your helmeted head. Nobody died but this happened to someone I know - she was with a child at the edge of the piste, wiping the child's nose, when a small, heavy, child in a death tuck (we've all seen them) slammed into her leg and did more damage than the best Austrian surgeons could repair. Helmets make you safer, but they can make you a more lethal weapon if you hit somebody else.
There will presumably be a post mortem on the skier who died. |
sounds like lack of a helmet wasn't an issue in this tragic accident but just to clarify something - wearing a helmet DOES NOT make you more lethal. Your helmet is designed to absorb and dissipate force which means in your scenario the impact on the head AND THE KNEE is smaller wearing a helmet than it would have been bare head on knee.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Mmm, perhaps that's so - interesting. Would need some experimentation, maybe?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Origen wrote: |
| Mmm, perhaps that's so - interesting. Would need some experimentation, maybe? |
actually no, it is fundamental Newtonian mechanics
An equal and opposite force at the impact. That force of impact is related to the kinetic energy of the moving skier and the speed of deceleration. The helmet means that the deceleration is less rapid and hence the forces are smaller.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@jedster, although to take pedantry further.............by virtue of actually wearing a helmet, the "projectile" is automatically larger than a head with no helmet. 
p.s. I'm not being entirely serious with that.
As to the subject matter of this thread, it sounds like a tragic accident, but as others have noted - we may never know precisely what happened.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I take it you're in Les Arcs ATM so familiar with the conditions out there then?
|
I'm here at present. I've been quite surprised by how many extremely hard-packed/slippery pistes there are across the resort right now. I'm beginning to realise how sheltered I've been on previous holidays (I learned ten years ago, as an adult, and have mostly only been away in March)... nothing had prepared me for some of what we've faced. A lesson was super helpful, but I still don't look forward to the runs back to Arc 1800 at the end of the day, for example.
I have no idea what the conditions were at the top of the Aiguille Rouge on the day (and I've never been up there) but I note that the accident happened quite early in the morning, and that the resort say it had been pisted. If it was anything like some of the pisted reds down to Peisey/Vallandry in the morning I can well imagine it would have been easily possible to lose control if one wasn't completely focused or, like me, somewhat naive about what January skiing can be like and inadvertently bitten off more than one could chew. Extremely tragic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Snow&skifan wrote: |
| Gored wrote: |
| Tuck & roll if out of control. |
Not straighten the legs, trying to use boots etc as brakes? |
No, tuck & roll sideways. Wipe yourself out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Origen wrote: |
| Mmm, perhaps that's so - interesting. Would need some experimentation, maybe? |
The experiments have been done. Helmets reduce the risk to an unprotected head. The force is spread over a larger area that is also deformable and decelleration is reduced. Skulls are very good at causing
depressed skull fractures to each other.
The argument to the contrary has no support in any credible tests. It just got made up by anti-helmet brigade and gets trotted out as fact by many others. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@JudgeMent4l, I rather think you have misinterpreted what she meant.........
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
