 Poster: A snowHead
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@boarder2020, you catch an edge, fall badly, can’t move. Out of phone signal. What’s your plan, genius?
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As said above solo tourers are usually ultra conservative. Riding relatively mellow low consequence terrain in a conservative manner, I'd say my risk of serious injury is pretty low. Especially as 99% of the time I'm riding deep powder so any potential fall is quite soft.
I'm on a snowboard not skis so if I was to fall, most likely injuries are wrist or shoulder. While far from ideal and I'm sure extremely painful, I fancy my chances of limping back to the village with either a dislocated shoulder or broken wrist. Arguably a skier who's more likely to suffer an immobilising lower limb injury like ACL/broken leg might be at greater risk.
Tree wells not really an issue where I ride. (Although a good point bought up above about them - there used to be more tree wells deaths than avy deaths in n America).
Of course I let people know where I will be touring each day and what time I'll be back by. So if I was to be incapacitated they would raise the alarm and we actually have a military search and rescue team locally.
Of course it would absolutely be safer to have a partner. But I'm very comfortable that the risk is low enough for my personal tolerance. I don't really see my touring (with appropriate steps to mitigate risks) as being any more dangerous than any solo hiker or trail/fell runner, which I think most people would accept as fairly safe.
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boarder2020 has effectively confirmed a lot of things tbh, mostly that they are an arrogant ass, who probably polishes their own halo in the mirror each morning
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I stated what qualifications I have (a simple fact) and then said I don't feel confident in my abilities enough to make more difficult decisions when avalanche risk is not obvious either way. To the point I basically completely avoid avalanche terrain on the vast majority of tours. I'm not sure what is arrogant about that? Again, I'd say it's much more arrogant to not respect the danger and think you can go into that terrain without any training or equipment and will be fine.
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Sorry, but a sanctimonious sap needs calling out sometimes imho.
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You might not like what I say or how I say it. But every year we see lots of people dying in avalanches that are very avoidable. Until someone can provide me with a justification for not wearing a transceiver when going into avalanche terrain I can't call it anything other than stupid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A word of support for @boarder2020,
Those who have resorted to vitriolic comment need to consider what he is saying.
Boarder2020 can venture out alone as he has a elevated avalanche awareness. That is the essence of his drift.
Those who are critical should consider other famous Snowheads who tour/ski alone.
Once again those folk are carefully considering the weather, snowpack, terrain, wind direction, weather forecast, slope aspect.
This group of people is very different to youngsters skiing lift served off-piste with no knowledge.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But I'm very comfortable that the risk is low enough for my personal tolerance.
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This is the key, isn't it? He's not saying nothing bad could happen, just that he's OK with that risk. Don't we all do that, all the time, albeit sometimes with less thought? Even the lads bombing round lift served off-piste with no idea are not facing a very high risk, considered objectively. There are always loads of them - just as there are loads of lads driving dangerously. I have no idea of the respective objective risks, and probably nobody else here does, either. And the lads in cars are probably more likely to take an innocent bystander with them.
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There are always folk who question those who go alone into the the mountains. "Its not safe" etc. Personally think this point of view is fundamentally wrong. Being on your own in the mountains (or similar terrain) means taking responsibility for yourself, you have to look at the level of risk you are prepared to accept (from Reinhold Meissner soloing Everest with no possibility of rescue to a stroll up Wansfell Pike from Ambleside) and what measures you can take to deal with any issues that might occur. Being on your own is a more satisfying experience than being in a group but it works for some & not others. Neither is right or wrong.
However that is not at issue for the accident here, a family holiday group chose to ski off piste without the appropriate equipment which, sadly, resulted in a fatal accident. There is a case to be made that someone who goes off on their own consciously aware of the risks is behaving more "sensibly" and "responsibly" than this group did.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Last week I was in Morzine / Avoriaz with my 17 yo son & we saw a pretty big avalanche release opposite us while we were on a chair lift. No one caught as far as we know. It was our second last day & the following day I wanted to bring the munchkin up to see the debris, but we didn't make it in time.
Today we skied past avalanche debris from what I now know to be this one. We stopped and looked, talked about off piste safety etc, and I'd naively assumed it was a patrol triggered avalanche. But to get back and realise it wasn't, that a 14 year kid lost his life, gosh, that is sobering.
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@Pending, Gosh that's so sad, very sobering.
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Couple of simple points.
Always a good idea to show respect for the dead and grieving. Also always a good idea to wait for proper analysis / facts before drawing conclusions and labelling grieving people as idiots to be permanently readable here.
Description as to activity is super low in detail, could really be anything including side-piste. Other members of the group were wearing beacons so they weren't taking the wee wee. His joining the group may have been happenstance on way home for all we know rather than an intended day off-piste.
Avalanche was reported to be 80m wide and 400m long and triggered from above, their terrain choice may have been totally innocuous apart from this factor, indeed it seems a guide may have been in the same area with his clients. He was found within 20 minutes by reference to his skis sticking out of the snow so absence of transceiver may have had little to no effect on his death.
Personally I think doing anything off piste alone is inadvisable because the simplest thing can have fatal consequences. Tree well, fall into deep snow, minor incapacitating injury, no phone coverage. I'm reminded of a British girl who died in Chamonix on the Argentiere home run a few years back, crashed off the side of the piste into a wall of snow which collapsed over her and she wasn't found for days. I face planted in deep snow at high speed once after lifts had closed and my buddy didn't see, really struggled to get out, could have been in all sorts of trouble if I went a bit deeper or had injured myself.
But mainly show respect when there has been a tragedy, its really distasteful.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| 8611 wrote: |
| ....no phone coverage. |
Even if there was coverage, I had iPhones that simply died when it became too cold (and that was far from extremely cold).
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I guess this is where we come back to risk assessment and people's differing perceptions of risk.
I'm personally not keen on skiing off piste alone, but I wouldn't say it was inadvisable. If people are fearful of falling and not having a phone then do they also avoid hiking alone, or driving on country roads? There are countless times in one's life where it's possible that someone could fall/injure themselves and not be found for a while. I get that skiing off piste is increasing the risk of that, but I don't think to such a degree that we should be acting like it's a stupid thing to do.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well its a question of degree. I don't hike through a medium that can suffocate or kill me. We can only exist in ski terrain with life support around us, I would probably be able to survive a few days in the mountains I hike in. But even at that, I wouldn't hike without a charged mobile phone.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@8611, so as I said, it's all just risk assessment. You probably hike places where you can fall, be knocked out etc. if you're in the UK then there's also a good chance you hike somewhere with worse mobile phone reception than in the Alps  For some people that would be enough to not hike alone, for others it's not an issue. Likewise you say that you wouldn't hike without a charged mobile phone, but 40 years ago it wouldn't have been a consideration at all.
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True
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You know it makes sense.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, I would say it’s both very inadvisable and a stupid thing to do. People can go off piste on their own if they like, absolutely their choice, it’s a free country etc. But equally they need to acquire a thinker skin because other people, many of whom will be mountain and ski professionals of many years standing, will be calling them stupid. Because it’s stupid.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Unsurprised some people are touring solo.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I often ski off-piste by myself. Not touring outside of the resort boundary, but a decent traverse away from the nearest lift, in to the trees away from the pistes, etc. I’m more conservative in terrain choice under such circumstances, and while there’s a risk I think it is proportionate.
Of course, there’s also a risk to skiing on piste as well. I’ve never been hurt when skiing off-piste, but had a couple of concussions, broken ribs and skied in to so hard that I was airlifted to hospital, all while skiing in piste. Do you think there are ski professionals who call me stupid for skiing on piste with the attendant risks?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Probably more chance of someone coming to help you if you are in patrolled terrain.
I think the point here is the arrogance/irony/insensitivity of calling someone who died stupid for not wearing a beacon off piste, with clearly no detailed information of the incident, whilst openly admitting to touring solo, in which case wearing a beacon is basically pointless, is what has stirred up the discussion.
IMO if someone wants to cosplay Jeremy jones walking round in low angle zero exposure terrain, up to them. That doesn’t give them any right to offer up opinions on others however.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
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@boarder2020, you catch an edge, fall badly, can’t move. Out of phone signal. What’s your plan, genius?
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As said above solo tourers are usually ultra conservative. Riding relatively mellow low consequence terrain in a conservative manner, I'd say my risk of serious injury is pretty low. Especially as 99% of the time I'm riding deep powder so any potential fall is quite soft.
I'm on a snowboard not skis so if I was to fall, most likely injuries are wrist or shoulder. While far from ideal and I'm sure extremely painful, I fancy my chances of limping back to the village with either a dislocated shoulder or broken wrist. Arguably a skier who's more likely to suffer an immobilising lower limb injury like ACL/broken leg might be at greater risk.
Tree wells not really an issue where I ride. (Although a good point bought up above about them - there used to be more tree wells deaths than avy deaths in n America).
Of course I let people know where I will be touring each day and what time I'll be back by. So if I was to be incapacitated they would raise the alarm and we actually have a military search and rescue team locally.
Of course it would absolutely be safer to have a partner. But I'm very comfortable that the risk is low enough for my personal tolerance. I don't really see my touring (with appropriate steps to mitigate risks) as being any more dangerous than any solo hiker or trail/fell runner, which I think most people would accept as fairly safe.
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boarder2020 has effectively confirmed a lot of things tbh, mostly that they are an arrogant ass, who probably polishes their own halo in the mirror each morning
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I stated what qualifications I have (a simple fact) and then said I don't feel confident in my abilities enough to make more difficult decisions when avalanche risk is not obvious either way. To the point I basically completely avoid avalanche terrain on the vast majority of tours. I'm not sure what is arrogant about that? Again, I'd say it's much more arrogant to not respect the danger and think you can go into that terrain without any training or equipment and will be fine.
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Sorry, but a sanctimonious sap needs calling out sometimes imho.
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You might not like what I say or how I say it. But every year we see lots of people dying in avalanches that are very avoidable. Until someone can provide me with a justification for not wearing a transceiver when going into avalanche terrain I can't call it anything other than stupid. |
I think you are demonstrating the point that it is the outcome that can determine perceptions of stupidity.
The point being made by some above is that broad sweeping statements about those who have died, without full knowledge of the facts, underlined by then highlighting their own superior skills and judgment as demonstrated by them not dying, is distasteful and yes, arrogant.
I don’t know you apart from what you post but that’s my observation and I make it because what you have repeatedly said and inferred about the dead is really very objectionable.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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+1
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rob@rar, a reasonable point on the first paragraph, utterly disingenuous in the second.
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@Dr John, I disagree. Both paragraphs are about risk, making exactly the same point.
My facetious point about professionals labelling behaviour as stupid was meant as a counterpoint to some comments such as yours which I think are excessively and unhelpfully dogmatic.
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@rob@rar, a reasonable point on the first paragraph, utterly disingenuous in the second.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| @SnoodyMcFlude, I would say it’s both very inadvisable and a stupid thing to do. People can go off piste on their own if they like, absolutely their choice, it’s a free country etc. But equally they need to acquire a thinker skin because other people, many of whom will be mountain and ski professionals of many years standing, will be calling them stupid. Because it’s stupid. |
That would suggest that the whole issue is binary, which it clearly isn't. To suggest otherwise is stupid.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think you are demonstrating the point that it is the outcome that can determine perceptions of stupidity.
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Nope. I think anyone going into avalanche terrain without a beacon is stupid, regardless of outcome. It's comparable to driving a car without wearing a seatbelt. Of course it doesn't eliminate risk and most times you will be fine without it. But I'm yet to hear a justified reason to not wear one. Give me one sensible reason and I'm willing to change my opinion.
Fwiw I don't think this is a particularly controversial opinion. Any avalanche course will tell you don't go into avalanche terrain without the "holy trinity".
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then highlighting their own superior skills and judgment as demonstrated by them not dying, is distasteful and yes, arrogant.
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I literally said I'm not confident enough in my skills to make difficult decisions so the vast majority of my time simply avoid avalanche terrain. If you don't know how to avoid avalanche terrain using a mapping app with slope angles (and a bit of common sense to judge overhead danger/runouts) you probably have no business discussing avalanche safety. Off piste/touring does not necessarily mean avalanche terrain.
Give me partners, professional forecasting, and more populated routes and yes I'll go into avalanche terrain, but am still probably a lot more conservative than many.
Again, arrogance is going into avalanche terrain without gear or equipment and not respecting the potential dangers.
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The point being made by some above is that broad sweeping statements about those who have died, without full knowledge of the facts,
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Multiple news outlets have reported no beacon. I suspect your argument is going to be it was lost during the avalanche. In which case id suggest it either wasn't secured correctly (lots of people doing this putting it in a standard pocket rather than using the harness) or the family if the deceased will have a big legal claim against the manufacturer. (Fwiw I can't remember a manufacturer ever recalling a harness).
My frustration is not with this single case. It's that we continue to see people making obviously terrible decisions - which not carrying a beacon is just 1 and you can make the argument that alone won't get you killed.
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what you have repeatedly said and inferred about the dead is really very objectionable.
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If someone tries to climb a crane without any safety gear falls and dies do you think it was a stupid idea? What about someone stealing a car and speeding it straight into a tree while not wearing a seatbelt? You can think someone's last actions were rather stupid, without making a judgment of them as a person. I'm sure we'd all say we've made stupid decisions in our lives, without claiming to be stupid people. Fortunately most of our mistakes aren't in situations where it can result in tragedy.
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IMO if someone wants to cosplay Jeremy jones walking round in low angle zero exposure terrain, up to them. That doesn’t give them any right to offer up opinions on others however.
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Strange how you and others seem to agree I don't have a right to offer opinions on others. Yet are quick to offer your opinions on what I choose to do or say in a not particularly friendly manner
@rob@rar, i also feel far more in danger on a crowded piste with people skiing in a reckless manner. The stats for serious injuries/deaths in n America resorts show the majority happen on intermediate terrain. Considering some of the inbounds terrain out there where freeride kids are hucking big cliffs and people are skiing the likes of corberts it says something.
@Dr John, don't worry I'm far from thin skinned out of curiosity what is acceptable risk for you in general? Trail running? Downhill mountain biking? Road cycling? Contact sports?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ooh! I know a bloke who skied with Jeremy Jones... Well I do now... kinda... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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