 Poster: A snowHead
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| ed48 wrote: |
| Knowledge and skills definitely, but also, I think avalanche transceivers cost should be partially covered by gov/resorts etc. If they cost like 50 eur, more people would have them. Or some kind of procedure, that people venturing offpiste one week per year, get them for free etc, I think there is a lot to improve here. |
If you're a member, avi kit (and pretty much any other equipment like snowshoes, climbing gear etc.) can be rented from the AAC and other similar clubs for almost pennies. Most locals will have membership to one of them, because they come with rescue insurance. I believe SAAC run avi courses for free. The kit and info is available to those who know where to look.
| HammondR wrote: |
| Evidently no tranceivers or bags (with probes and shovels) were worn off piste by almost all of the local boys of a similar age. Reason being: they weren’t “cool”. |
Another known problem that is also being tackled, in Tyrol anyway, by people setting up freeride clubs and courses for kids and teenagers after one died in similar circumstances a couple of years ago.
So yeah, something is being done, but it will take a couple of years to have an impact.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I get the feeling that some of the comments here steer towards lack of beacon being the primary reason for a bad outcome - maybe I’m misreading it.
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The fact they skied that slope on a level 4 indicates their knowledge/training is so low I'd have zero expectations of them being able to use a beacon successfully.
As pointed out by @phil_w, not wearing a standard piece of safety equipment is a great indicator the person is either reckless or simply has no clue. Either way not surprising when they end up in an accident. Extremely small numbers but I think so far all the avalanche deaths this season have been people not wearing a beacon? I suspect anyone with even basic training (and likely to wear a beacon) is completely avoiding avy terrain on level 4 day.
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Who knows what happened, but for example the beacon could have been ripped off and destroyed in the slide.
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In which case it almost certainly wasn't worn properly. Not that unusual for people making their beacon redundant by sticking it in a trousers pocket that's not suitably reinforced to survive an avalanche.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^^maybe just quit the assumptions until you know the facts
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| The fact they skied that slope on a level 4 indicates their knowledge/training is so low I'd have zero expectations of them being able to use a beacon successfully. |
I think the risk was Level 3 on 25th December at the altitude where the slide took place (it might have been L2 on slopes below 2200m, although not certain about this as I wasn't skiing off-piste last week so was paying less attention to the avalanche bulletin). The previous day it was Level 4.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| hang11 wrote: |
| ^^maybe just quit the assumptions until you know the facts |
Those of us that follow these things are bored of stupid people killing themselves. We have read plenty of full avalanche reports. Over and over again it is the same thing - people making terrible decisions that you don't need hindsight to see. Show me all the avalanche reports of deaths where those involved generally did everything right and "got unlucky". Until you can do that it makes sense to assume that the person followed the other 99.9% of Darwin award contenders, the fact they weren't even wearing a beacon only strengthens this assumption.
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@boarder2020, may I suggest you read this post again, more carefully?
| hang11 wrote: |
| Hear ya - bit of a sensitive subject for me - someone I knew got avalanched a few months ago, didn’t make it, it was widely reported no beacon was used when in actual fact it was lost in the slide. Just another bit of needless pain for the family to have to deal with, not helped by the usual internet discussions from uninformed “experts” and unsurprisingly people connected to it tend to search out this kind of thing. Hence my comments about thinking of the people close to the victims before launching into making comments. |
You don't actually know the facts and your comments are arrogant and insensitive.
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@boarder2020, Do you have any professional snow safety qualifications or training?
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@KSH, if someone is triggered by talking about avalanche deaths perhaps not a good idea to read a thread with "avalanche death" in the title.
At this point it's a broken record. Like I said go look at the previous avalanche death reports and you will come to the same conclusion. Those of us actually interested in this stuff and not just jumping on it when a topical thread pops up have seen it too many times before.
Even so, there are cases where I would be hesitant to comment until the full report was produced. But, where they are not even wearing a beacon already says a lot.
@hang11, yes I have some training and a basic qualification. Enough that I manage 50+ days of mostly solo touring each year in somewhere with no avalanche forecasting, without managing to kill myself. It's not rocket science to massively minimise risks to almost zero through terrain selection.
You don't need to be particularly trained to see such glaring mistakes anyway. Anyone with even the most basic avy training knows you should wear a beacon.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, Not arguing about basic safety precautions, just suggesting you should tone down the voicing of opinions on the stupidity or otherwise of people who fall victim to avalanches, or indeed belittling sensible comment by describing it as “triggering”
Only reason I ask about professional qualification is just trying to work out if i may end up working with you one day. Doesn’t sound like I will, so that’s a good result.
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After reading these reports/threads (pretty much annually) what seems to be a 'common' theme is third parties (presumably unintentionally) actually triggering the slides in the first place with the resulting mayhem affecting those directly below them. I'm assuming this must be difficult to mitigate as they are initially witnessing what they assume to be a 'safe' route?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Belch, I’m sure people who actually know will answer you but I think that a slope prone to avalanche is just that, regardless of where the trigger is.
It’s regrettable that these tragedies (in the true sense of the word) cause such personal discord here. I can’t help feeling for hang11 as well as understanding boarder2020’s anger.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@boarder2020, erm, did you say you go touring solo? If so that's solid Darwin Award territory.
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@motyl, agree - its a sensitive subject but as humans we all react in different ways especially when facing / witnessing adversity . . .most of the time its because we've all done stupid things / made silly decisions when skiing so we almost share the pain / relief when tragedies occur . . .
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You know it makes sense.
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@belch yes indeed.
@hang11, sorry I did see your reply and wanted to say that I feel your pain. I agree totally about news reports which we tend to take as gospel, whereas if you know anything about the facts there are nearly always inaccuracies and undoubtedly omissions. Also if you want a follow up/correction/update then you have to hunt that down yourself as it’s probably no longer newsworthy. I find snowheads particularly useful for this and I hope there will be full reports which will probably make painful reading.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| HammondR wrote: |
In the Le Tour avalanche there were 4 skiers; an adult and 3 teenage boys. All local to the valley and strong experienced skiers. It was a category 4 day, they were on a notorious slope, and not one was wearing a transceiver or a pack. They were not tourists without knowledge. They simply chose to ignore the risks for some fresh tracks. |
Are you referring to the avalanche on Jan 20th? As my understanding from one of the pisteurs involved was that they were equipped with the relevant equipment, however I will now need to confirm that with one of the lads directly involved. It was also a category 3 day ( https://donneespubliques.meteofrance.fr/donnees_libres/Pdf/BRA/BRA.MONT-BLANC.20240119150940.pdf ) so maybe you are referencing a different incident?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@boarder2020,
Not much point in wearing a beacon if you skimo solo?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
@boarder2020, erm, did you say you go touring solo? If so that's solid Darwin Award territory
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Well if you actually bothered to look at data rather than make lazy assumptions you might be surprised! Solo tourers a lot safer than big groups, and at worse equal to going with a partner - actually safer than with a partner in some datasets! https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.wem.2015.12.001
Of course nothing magic about being solo, they just tend to make far more conservative choices for obvious reasons.
Which is kind of the point, I regularly tour solo but simply reduce my risk to as good as zero by avoiding avalanche terrain. Anyone with even the slightest bit of avy training knows how to do this and it's been made even easier with the modern mapping apps with slope gradient/avalanche overlays. It's really not rocket science!
Of course to those that have no knowledge, think avalanches are some random unpredictable event, and want to make assumptions about what terrain my touring involves may well come to a completely wrong assumption 
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@boarder2020,
Not much point in wearing a beacon if you skimo solo?
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I always wear it for a few reasons;
- although I set off solo I sometimes meet other on the skin track
- there's the possibility I might need to perform a rescue of someone else
- it's simply good practice to get into the routine of putting it on each morning.
- there is an absolutely tiny (I struggle to even think of a realistic possibility) risk I do end up in an avalanche in which case it would help with body retrieval.
- even if it serves no use 99.9% of the time there is not really any downside to wearing it.
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Only reason I ask about professional qualification is just trying to work out if i may end up working with you one day. Doesn’t sound like I will, so that’s a good result.
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I suspect you wanted a gotcha moment of me saying I don't have any formal training/qualifications. Asking in the hope we don't have to work together someday seems incredibly unlikely and unrealistic
I started backcountry in Canada. There it's basically the norm to do an avy course before venturing out of bounds. I went on to do AST2. Would have liked to continue but the next level (ops 1) which is aimed at those looking to become professionals didn't really fit my needs. In fact I know a few guys that did the course and were disappointed. The opinion was if you just want to get better at managing your own tours hiring a guide for a week, going up to a backcountry hut, getting them to explain all decision making, doing some teaching, and just picking their brain constantly was a better option. It's unfortunate there is no formal course/qualifications for those of us that just want that without all the professional operations stuff we have no use for.
While my formal training was good it has been completely shadowed by what I've learned from others (spent one winter sharing a room and regularly touring with a cat ski guide, and another with a patroller). I know plenty of extremely knowledgeable people that don't have a formal qualification, and it's easier than ever to educate yourself with lots of great resources. In fact I suspect simply reading "staying alive in avalanche terrain" would put someone comfortably ahead of those doing a 2-3 day course (at least on the theory side of things).
There was an article in a ski magazine a few years ago about a researcher that goes up to Vail pass to collect data. She got groups that were heading out into the backcountry to perform a beacon search. The top performers were a group of teenagers who were doing their first tour, had no formal qualifications, but had been practicing themselves.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I just Googled arrogance as a risk factor in back country skiing. Some fascinating reading.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@hang11, I agree that people should be respectful of others, and that we frequently don't know the full facts in these situations. But there are many more snowheads reading this thread than commenting, and if it makes just one of them think twice before putting themselves and/or others in a similar situation that is surely a positive outcome? Similar discussions probably happen a few times each season, but there will always be new members finding one for the first time.
Takeaways from this discussion that just might save someone's life include:
- category 3 is 'considerable' risk, not just medium, and slides can be triggered spontaneously not just by others
- some slopes are more prone to avalanche than others, and you can learn which those are
- slope aspect, altitude, time of day etc can impact risk. (@Whitegold's comment may be trite, but it has some merit)
- carrying the correct gear and knowing how to use it could save lives.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ecureuil, agreed, but it's perfectly possible to point to risk factors without jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions or pontificating from on high.
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@KSH,
| Quote: |
pontificating from on high
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You don't have to be a professional driver to say someone speeding without wearing a seatbelt is putting themselves at unnecessary risk. Similarly, many of the avalanche accidents are so avoidable and unnecessary anyone that's done a basic course could highlight multiple rather obvious mistakes.
Imo peak arrogance is not respecting the danger mountains possess and going out without suitable kit/training!
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@boarder2020, I don't disagree with that, it is the sense you give of all-seeing invincibility and professed knowledge of facts which you can't possibly know, which give me pause for thought.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Is it stated where this avalanche took place beyond 'Aiguille Rouge'? There are off piste zones from this lift which are basically treated by both punters and lift patrol as being in-bounds (yes, I know this isn't a European thing) through to incredibly dangerous terrain off the back which requires a very stable snow pack. To make any kind of assessment of this tragic incident or to learn anything from it I feel that a more accurate location is needed
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@rambotion, front side of the Aiguille Rouge. I didn’t see it as I’d left the 2000 bowl around mid-afternoon, but a neighbour saw it (actually, he saw the S&R efforts) and he described it as between the Robert Blanc and Lanches ‘Natur’ pistes, possibly in the Robert Blanc gulley itself. But that’s secondhand info, as seen from some distance from the actual location, so treat accordingly.
My old Granny used to say ‘never speak ill of the dead’. Strikes me that’s not a bad starting point for discussion of decision-making and risks. Doesn’t stop discussion in the abstract, not least when only a partial picture of fatal incidents is ever known until formal enquiries have been completed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@KSH, I have stated my "qualifications" above - as I pointed out rather basic. I've never claimed to be an expert in the subject - I would save that title for professions and others that know far more than me.
For someone with "all seeing invincibility" you won't find someone more cautious in the back country! The vast majority of the time i simply avoid avalanche terrain through terrain management. If you are not on slopes that can physically avalanche due to their angle and have no overhead danger risk is essentially 0, which is why I can be fairly confident!
It's quite easy to avoid avalanche terrain (but may require a bit of planning ahead). It's also quite easy to make a decision to ski something where all signs are "go" (e.g. forecast is level 2 risk, pits and stability test look good, no signs of instability, other people skiing similar slopes etc.). The top guys are the ones who can make good decisions when there are mixed signals. Frankly, I don't trust myself to do that, if I see anything "concerning" I just abandon to something with less risk. It's simply not worth it, as I've said before you can have plenty of fun riding deep powder on slopes <30°.
If all the deaths were people on those mixed signal days generally making good decisions and with correct equipment, I might simply put it down to them having a higher risk tolerance. Unfortunately the trend seems to be people dying on high risk days, skiing slopes completely unreasonable for the conditions, and not wearing any avy equipment. Sorry, but I will always find that somewhat "stupid".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@boarder2020,
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If you are not on slopes that can physically avalanche due to their angle and have no overhead danger risk is essentially 0,
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Can't argue with that. If that's what you're doing when you ski on your own, fair enough (except, of course, if you encounter something like a tree well in back country, and nobody's around to pull you out...)
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@boarder2020, you catch an edge, fall badly, can’t move. Out of phone signal. What’s your plan, genius?
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You know it makes sense.
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Might be a good moment to say Happy New Year to everyone on Snow heads and this thread.
It is our right to have opinions and talk about them.
How they are perceived can often be wrongly interpreted.
Thank you to Boarder and Hang and the others who continue to use their experience to alert us to the dangers.
For now we will not know or maybe never the exact circumstances about the accident.
What’s for sure is that family and friends will have had a horrible Xmas and New Year.
I wish them peace and all of you too
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@phillip33, nicely put. HNY!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| you catch an edge, fall badly, can’t move. Out of phone signal. What’s your plan, genius? |
As @boarder2020 has effectively confirmed he/she does everything possible to eliminate avalanche risk when solo touring, I'm not sure why anyone would then be wishing ill will or misfortune on him/her... 
Bit bizarre if you ask me, but each to their own. Would the same apply to solo travellers or lone hill walkers?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Quote: |
| you catch an edge, fall badly, can’t move. Out of phone signal. What’s your plan, genius? |
As @boarder2020 has effectively confirmed he/she does everything possible to eliminate avalanche risk when solo touring, I'm not sure why anyone would then be wishing ill will or misfortune on him/her...
Bit bizarre if you ask me, but each to their own. Would the same apply to solo travellers or lone hill walkers? |
Good post.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yeah, good post. Let's not do the ad hominem thing, play the ball.
| Dr John wrote: |
| ... you catch an edge, fall badly, can’t move. Out of phone signal. What’s your plan, genius? |
I'm sure we can all work out how to manage that risk.
Still, at least you know what you don't know, which puts you less at risk that those who do not take basic safety precautions.
| border2020 wrote: |
| Imo peak arrogance is not respecting the danger mountains possess and going out without suitable kit/training! |
This.
And you don't have to die because of this specific behaviour for it to still be arrogant.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| horgand wrote: |
| Sorry, but a sanctimonious sap needs calling out sometimes imho. |
I assume you meant that ironically
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@rob@rar, thanks for that. Presumably this was heavily tracked out when they were hit? I've been there on a powder day and it took about 4 laps of Varet for the whole front side to go from untouched to mogul field. Were Robert Blanc and Lanches open?
This feels a bit like the St Gervais avalanche a year or two ago, tracked out terrain that was never going to slide but hit from above by an avalanche triggered by someone else. Its not a big space between Robert Blanc and Lanches, and I would suggest that few off piste skiers haven't skied something comparable without gear
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| Belch wrote: |
| After reading these reports/threads (pretty much annually) what seems to be a 'common' theme is third parties (presumably unintentionally) actually triggering the slides in the first place with the resulting mayhem affecting those directly below them. I'm assuming this must be difficult to mitigate as they are initially witnessing what they assume to be a 'safe' route? |
Could be a bit of following the herd mentality with people following tracks down those easily accessible bits of off piste that are close to pistes.
We all see those groups of people with no gear stumbling down an easily accessed off piste run which could still potentially be risky. It's the same excuses most of the time:
'It's tracked out, it's safe'
'it's near to the pistes, it's safe'
'it's only a risk 2/3 day, it's safe'
And yeah, 99.9%+ of the time they will be fine. But they are screwed if an avalanche does happen or if they inadvertently stumble into riskier terrain (which is potentially likely if they do not know the area well).
On the off piste courses that I have done we have always been told to be wary of other skiers/boarders above who are not part of our group. I remember one time our instructor got irate at another skier who came barrelling past us when we were going one by one down a steeper pitch on a risk 3 day.
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On carrying Avy kit, the point of carrying avalanche safety gear is to give a group the tools for self rescue in the event of things going bad. If the victim(s) has to wait for resort rescue to conduct the search the chances of survival are much reduced, transceiver or not.
Self rescue for small groups* or mixed groups of adults and kids is always going to be more challenging, more so if group members have little or no training or practice.
*So says another occasional solo ski tourer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rambotion wrote: |
| Were Robert Blanc and Lanches open? |
No.
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| Quote: |
Would the same apply to solo travellers or lone hill walkers?
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Good question. Not so long ago all this stuff was undertaken without a phone. My dad did a lot of solo walking in the Brecon Beacons. I used to walk in France on my own, and in the early days of mobile phones I often didn't think of taking it with me. This wasn't high mountain or hazardous stuff but my daughter nagged me - what if you just fell and broke an ankle? I am now more compliant and generally take a phone everywhere - and do far less mountain walking anyway, due to health limitations.
Loads of people sail single-handed. If you fall overboard in cold water that is very likely curtains, even if you have a personal emergency beacon and have it with you when you fall! I no longer sail single-handed and I pay attention, am cautious and have a fair amount of experience. But I don't routinely wear a life-jacket any more than I wear a crash helmet in the car, though both would be rational "risk reduction" strategies. I wear a life jacket at night, or when weather is bad. Though mostly if the weather is bad, or it's dark, we don't go sailing these days, being aware of our limitations. "Self rescue" after falling overboard at sea is virtually impossible and being with others reduces but does not remove the risk. Just finding a casualty in a broken sea is difficult and even with a crew of three, two of us would struggle mightily to recover an exhausted, water-sodden, casualty. We would need to use the mechanical advantage of a winch - the sort of thing I've done on exercises with a keen, young, strong, crew. In real life with elderlies? Doubtful.
I've done a very little "avalanche training" - just enough to be pretty certain I'd be useless if required to do it in earnest.
Certainly having the gear, and some understanding of terrain, is better than having neither. Just as driving at or below the speed limit and leaving plenty of space in front is safer than speeding and driving on top of the car in front which is riskier than anything most people do in ski resorts! But even skiing on piste, where most of us are injured, is hazardous. The best way to reduce the risk if probably to avoid crowded times and places. Nobody risk averse would ever ski at New Year! It's interesting that skiing and sailing often appeal to the same people - who are willing to run the unavoidable risks because, on the right day, they are simply glorious ways of spending the time.
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FAQ
