 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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More sad news, only 13 a corsing to the Parisien article 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sad news.
As so often, never ski offpiste on North or East slopes after midday above 2000m.
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Simply heartbreaking.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Very sad, but being after midday has nothing to do with it. The snowpack is not evolving quickly during the day, in fact it is the opposite problem with persistent weak layers which are not evolving.
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| snowrider wrote: |
| Very sad, but being after midday has nothing to do with it. The snowpack is not evolving quickly during the day, in fact it is the opposite problem with persistent weak layers which are not evolving. |
Has everything to do with it.
Check the data.
Year after year, we see the same things on here, over and over again.
Most serious slides happen up high on north or east slopes above 2000m after midday.
Sun and heat and wind melt or shift the layers in the warmer afternoon, and it slides off.
Avoid offpiste near European summits in the afternoon.
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we're discussing whether it's good or not to ski off-piste after midday, on north or east-facing slopes, yet we overlook the fact that, according to the article, 1. the person wasn't wearing an avalanche transceiver, and 2. a third person above the group triggered the avalanche. This leads me to the conclusion that many people are skiing off-piste without the necessary equipment, proper knowledge, and preparation.
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@Whitegold, has taken a fact; "more avalanche accidents happen on north facing slopes", and then applied hist typical complete nonsense to come up with theory and explanation.
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that many people are skiing off-piste without the necessary equipment, proper knowledge, and preparation.
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Yep it's another easily avoidable avalanche death - which is true for most in recent history. A serious conversation needs to happen about taking kids into avalanche terrain. I'd argue this current death is neglectful.
At this point I'm giving up on people making good decisions (e.g. the swiss boarder who should have known better). So how do you stop the deaths?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I was in the pub yesterday in Bourg and chatting to some ski instructors, the instructor who probed/found the dead kid was there.
The word stupid came up a lot.
I do sometimes wonder if we need to move to a US style system of in/out of bounds. But on the flip side of that, I like the freedom that we have in Europe of going wherever we want and being responsible adults. Sadly when you make a bad decision it then has an impact on the life of the person who has to dig out your dead body.
Perhaps alerts can be sent out via SMS to everyone who has bought a ski pass? High avalanche risk today, if you ski off piste you must carry correct equipment etc?
My phone has been getting alerts from meteo france all week about avalanche risk
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| Quote: |
I do sometimes wonder if we need to move to a US style system of in/out of bounds. But on the flip side of that, I like the freedom that we have in Europe of going wherever we want and being responsible adults.
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I agree that inbounds system seems like a good solution (at least in theory, practically much more complicated). I don't really agree that implementing that system limits freedom, you still have the option to go outside the boundary if you wish.
Having done multiple seasons in canada, I absolutely love the set up. On any day I can ski all kinds of terrain without needing a partner, any equipment, or having to think at all. There was zero rush to get into the backcountry, typically we wouldn't even consider it till avalanche level was down to 2. I certainly don't think I'd have been able to be that patient in euro resort!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We are getting even more bad news, as father and son, ski tourers lost their lives in the recent avalanche in Tyrol, Tux area (ski tour route from Hochfugen). looks like they were not wearing transceivers.
Knowledge and skills definitely, but also, I think avalanche transceivers cost should be partially covered by gov/resorts etc. If they cost like 50 eur, more people would have them. Or some kind of procedure, that people venturing offpiste one week per year, get them for free etc, I think there is a lot to improve here.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| I think avalanche transceivers cost should be partially covered by gov/resorts etc. If they cost like 50 eur, more people would have them. |
If people can afford to buy/hire ski touring equipment they can surely afford to buy/hire avalanche safety kit... 
Or better to be dead, but with a few hundred extra euros in the bank?
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think avalanche transceivers cost should be partially covered by gov/resorts etc. If they cost like 50 eur, more people would have them. |
If people can afford to buy/hire ski touring equipment they can surely afford to buy/hire avalanche safety kit...
Or better to be dead, but with a few hundred extra euros in the bank? |
Was just about to post the same!
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You know it makes sense.
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Is it more laziness about acquiring, testing and setting them up pre each ski day? The ‘free as a bird’ ethos.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think avalanche transceivers cost should be partially covered by gov/resorts etc. If they cost like 50 eur, more people would have them. |
If people can afford to buy/hire ski touring equipment they can surely afford to buy/hire avalanche safety kit...
Or better to be dead, but with a few hundred extra euros in the bank? |
This is exactly conversation Im having (for years) with my friend, who is skiing one week per year around xmas time with his son, venturing offpiste if conditions are good. They ski without beacon, that "we ski only couple of days per year, in mild terrain, lots of tracks and pretty sure no avalanche danger here", I cannot even convince them to hire the beacon just for couple of days.
For family of 4, who ski once per year, hard to convince more than 1000 eur for set of beacons, when all they do is "light offpiste".
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 29-12-24 12:26; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Snow&skifan wrote: |
| Is it more laziness about acquiring, testing and setting them up pre each ski day? The ‘free as a bird’ ethos. |
That is extremely lazy, it takes me 20 seconds on a morning to put mine on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No different from lots of other risks people take. Drownings every week in the UK in summer. Lighting up a ciggie. Drinking too much too often. Being an Olympic downhill racer. Or training to be one. We nearly all do it and shouldn't point fingers. Most holiday skiers at far greater risk driving for hours at 130 mph a little too close to the car in front.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Origen, isn't that just whataboutery? I (just for example) think quite carefully about not driving too close to the car in front of mine; that doesn't make me a silly or bad person, or mean that I shouldn't think that someone who does that is fairly silly.
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People sometimes talk here as though skiing off piste without all the gear and good training is the height of inexcusable idiocy. There's a lot of finger wagging. But the risks aren't that great, just as most people survive driving too close to the car in front. We probably hear here on snow heads about almost all European avalanche deaths and get a heightened impression of risk.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Origen, yes, but irrespective of statistical risk, different people find different things scary and this will, perfectly naturally, affect their judgment on how to avoid risks which are avoidable (again irrespective of the degree of risk). In other words, the degree of risk isn't the only relevant factor, and does not of itself justify poo-pooing those who criticise silly/slightly dangerous/very dangerous [delete as appropriate] behaviour. Finger wagging is unjustified either way.
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Not sure if its BS (apols if it is as I don't frequent anything other than occasional side country) but if you're not going to take transceiver / basic avi kit, a smelly treat in one of your pockets can massively reduce location time for search dogs?
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| Belch wrote: |
| Not sure if its BS (apols if it is as I don't frequent anything other than occasional side country) but if you're not going to take transceiver / basic avi kit, a smelly treat in one of your pockets can massively reduce location time for search dogs? |
Even if that is true, by the time they've got a dog there and it's found you (more likely you're found by other means) you're already dead.
Just wear a transceiver.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I think avalanche transceivers cost should be partially covered by gov/resorts etc.
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Why should governments subsidise an extremely niche piece of safety equipment for a sport predominantly done by richer members of society? There are simply not enough deaths to justify the cost anyway. Even if they were you are making the big assumptions that people will know how to use them. If anything I suspect some would take even more risks because they think the transceiver is some kind of get out of jail card.
As for resorts they already do their bit by controlling pistes and providing a safe area to ski. Those choosing to go off piste are absolutely not their responsibility.
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But the risks aren't that great
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There is no standardised risk for avalanche. There are slopes on a level 4 day that would be extremely high risk. Same slope on a level 2 day with lots of tracks already could be extremely low risk. Looking only at the number of deaths and suggesting "it's low risk" so just do what you want and hope for the best is pretty stupid.
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Finger wagging is unjustified either way.
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It has no effect on my life that some parents have to live with the fact they got their child killed. Not only that but he probably suffered an extremely traumatic death being buried under snow knowing he was going to die. The fact that it was completely avoidable and all for nothing is stupid unless the goal is a Darwin award. I'm yet to hear any sensible suggestion of why someone wouldn't take avalanche gear if going into avalanche terrain? I suppose criticising someone who dies in a car crash for not wearing a seat belt is also "finger wagging?" After all risk of dying in RTC also very low.
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a smelly treat in one of your pockets can massively reduce location time for search dogs?
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The number of successful rescues by avalanche dogs is incredibly low. By the time the dog gets there I suspect it's already too late in the vast majority of cases. Also I'm not even sure how common dogs are in resorts? "Not carrying a beacon today because I have some bacon in my pocket so the dog will find me if I get caught" seems incredibly stupid. Although perhaps helpful for body retrieval.
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@boarder2020,
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The fact that it was completely avoidable and all for nothing is stupid unless the goal is a Darwin award. I'm yet to hear any sensible suggestion of why someone wouldn't take avalanche gear if going into avalanche terrain? I suppose criticising someone who dies in a car crash for not wearing a seat belt is also "finger wagging?" After all risk of dying in RTC also very low.
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Exactly. I happen to be of the (arguably scaredy-cat) school that thinks it's sensible to avoid potentially fatal scenarios, whether they are statistically high risk or not. But I can understand the other viewpoint.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Seems to be a bit of hand wringing here about not carrying a beacon. It’s obviously a dumb move, but a beacon doesn’t guarantee survival.
The only thing that does that is not getting caught in a slide, and maybe people having a better understanding of assessing and managing risk is the most important thing to focus on. They would be more likely to use safety gear after some training.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@hang11, that makes good sense
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it's sensible to avoid potentially fatal scenarios, whether they are statistically high risk or not.
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My point is off piste skiing is neither high risk or low risk. There is simply way to much variation. To go back to the RTC analogy you can look at overall deaths and see they are quite low. But drive at 120mph at night without seatbelts and your risk is not the same as overall deaths. Ski 37 degree slope on level 4 risk day and you are WAY more likely to be caught in an avalanche than the overall stats. Like driving the fact that most off piste skiers are sensible and not taking huge risks only skews the odds even lower.
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You know it makes sense.
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@boarder2020, OK, let me reword that, I prefer to avoid obvious risk, whatever the odds. (I think we're probably just arguing semantics here. There plainly isn't a 'one size fits all' for most given activities.)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A few thoughts
You don’t need a treat to be found by a dog. They are trained to find human bodies. Dead or alive doesn’t matter to the dog, they just love the excitement of finding a person and the approbation of the handler.
If I remember correctly the best way to optimise a successful dog search is to chuck them out of a helicopter and leave them to it without others tainting the scene.
They can be surprisingly quick. In the fatal avalanche incident at Le Tour last winter the dog found the second casualty who was dug out and survived. This individual was incredibly lucky because a liftie on the other side of the ski area called the PGHM BEFORE the avalanche. He could see where they were heading and knew exactly what was going to happen. So the helicopter was virtually airborne as the avalanche happened.
In the Le Tour avalanche there were 4 skiers; an adult and 3 teenage boys. All local to the valley and strong experienced skiers. It was a category 4 day, they were on a notorious slope, and not one was wearing a transceiver or a pack. They were not tourists without knowledge. They simply chose to ignore the risks for some fresh tracks.
Interestingly I met someone who was a friend of the family of the youngster who died and attended the funeral. Evidently no tranceivers or bags (with probes and shovels) were worn off piste by almost all of the local boys of a similar age. Reason being: they weren’t “cool”.
I suppose all that threads like this can hope to achieve is to ensure that none of us reading make the stupid mistake of not wearing a device which might help us to be rescued (or rescue others) if the wrong choice of route is made.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@HammondR, wow. That's sobering.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It’s awful how one bad decision can wreck so many lives. People dying leaves a massive hole behind and those decisions can’t be unmade.
Sometimes the bad decision isn’t the obvious one - ie duck the rope or drop into an unsupported slope or whatever. Sometimes it’s a decision that looked fairly innocuous that then leads into a series of events. You just don’t know from third hand press reports.
I always have a hard time with people making throw away comments about these kinds of incidents on the internet. Best to wait for the investigation to digest any learnings and maybe just take a moment to think of the families and friends of the victims who will be doing it really hard.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@HammondR, makes sense - can imagine trained dogs arriving on the scene before others can arguably find a 'body' (dead or alive) via scent faster than any human searching with tech. However also assuming location can sometimes mitigate their practical / timely use full stop and in a typical rescue situation humans with kit and probes are always generally the first on the scene in those vital first 10-15mins . . .
Not bringing the basic kit does seem remis in most if not all of these instances - such a daft way to go! Without being disrespectful I'd rather have a glorious 300ft leap off a cliff I wasn't previously aware of, if I was to meet my untimely end doing something I loved!
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 30-12-24 12:27; edited 1 time in total
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@hang11, The best two post on the thread.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| shep wrote: |
| @hang11, The best two post on the thread. |
Agreed
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| hang11 wrote: |
Seems to be a bit of hand wringing here about not carrying a beacon. It’s obviously a dumb move, but a beacon doesn’t guarantee survival.
The only thing that does that is not getting caught in a slide, and maybe people having a better understanding of assessing and managing risk is the most important thing to focus on. They would be more likely to use safety gear after some training. |
But isn't "understanding of [and] assessing and managing risk" precisely what leads people to use basic safety equipment when travelling in risky terrain?
If someone dies in a slide and they're not using basic safety gear, then I'd say that's indicative of a poor approach to risk management, whether they die precisely because of the lack of transceiver or otherwise.
Here in BC you're probably going to be strained through trees and crushed to death, and the transceiver / airbag is irrelevant. Except if you're out here without a transceiver, you're self-identifying as reckless. The key issue is recklessness, the rest are consequences.
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@phil_w, Agree with what you are saying but I get the feeling that some of the comments here steer towards lack of beacon being the primary reason for a bad outcome - maybe I’m misreading it. It just bothers me if people think the beacon etc is going to keep them safe and is some kind of substitute for good decision making. If you are in an avalanche then there’s a reasonable expectation that you are going to die, beacon or not.
I’m also just very conscious of drawing conclusions before all facts are known, that’s just internet bravado and helps nobody with improving practices going forward. Who knows what happened, but for example the beacon could have been ripped off and destroyed in the slide.
We all think we know what we are doing because luck is on our side most of the time. It’s only when we are unlucky that we learn lessons. It’s worth making the most of the opportunity.
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OK... we obviously can't draw conclusions. However we have decided to discuss the thing, and we can't do that without pointing to the main obvious mistake which was reportedly made. The other mistakes - including riding a slope which with hindsight we all know was unsafe - are in my view more likely to be made by someone who wilfully ignored the easy stuff.
I mean... I'd not ride with someone who rocked up to ride without a transceiver etc. His behaviour tells me he's unsafe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hear ya - bit of a sensitive subject for me - someone I knew got avalanched a few months ago, didn’t make it, it was widely reported no beacon was used when in actual fact it was lost in the slide. Just another bit of needless pain for the family to have to deal with, not helped by the usual internet discussions from uninformed “experts” and unsurprisingly people connected to it tend to search out this kind of thing. Hence my comments about thinking of the people close to the victims before launching into making comments.
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FAQ
