 Poster: A snowHead
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puis-je avoir un vin chaud pour ma mère
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@sussexskibore, one assumes they didn't do French A -level is they weren't using the conditional...... 
@Skiyeah, if they are genuinely race training, then you van get a sport exemption from the ski club they are training with that the LEA will most likely accept, though maybe not at Reception/Yr1? By late Primary, Secondary, plenty of kids will play for local football academies, orchestras, off acting etc so will be away with them quite a lot and those absences are authorized and managed fine.
To the thread in general, we just take ours in the holidays. The "it's educational" is a rubbish excuse, it's not, it's a holiday, and it's as educational doing it during term time as it is in holidays and if you go in the holidays, they get the bonus of actually attending all their lessons. Don't get me started on the middle class superiority of "ski holidays are "better" than summer holidays" claptrap.
I agree with @James77, the deal is you have kids, you go on holiday during the school holidays end of.
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| NickYoung wrote: |
With respect, I have been teaching since 2003, in the same organisation. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The authority knows that the parents of those kids with habitual absenteeism are most often not in a position to stand financial penalties. It's not a route our LEA follows.
Those are the kids whose attendance correlates with poor GCSE outcomes, and those are the stats that are used to justify fining for holiday absences. |
In that case, given your opinion/experience shared in your previous post, maybe it's time to see what other schools are like in other areas.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@galpinos, I agree with you that the "educational" argument is flawed. It is a holiday. And you are right that even if there is educational value, it is not greater than that gained by going to school. It is quite ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
You are also right that ski race camps are not problem so long as they are properly run and you get the documentation sorted. I did this for years for my daughter.
All that said, when the kids were wee (until 1st year of secondary) we took then out of school for a week to ski in winter. Partly this was cost and partly to avoid the crowds. I didn't, and don't, feel bad about it. It certainly has not affected their educational achievement. But neither did I try to justify it on the basis that they would learn more on a ski holiday than they would at school. Once they were in secondary school we went in half-term. We also skied every easter during the holidays until exams put paid to that.
I also agree, though, that kids who are taken out of school for a week of skiing are not the problem in terms of absenteeism.
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| hammerite wrote: |
| NickYoung wrote: |
With respect, I have been teaching since 2003, in the same organisation. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The authority knows that the parents of those kids with habitual absenteeism are most often not in a position to stand financial penalties. It's not a route our LEA follows.
Those are the kids whose attendance correlates with poor GCSE outcomes, and those are the stats that are used to justify fining for holiday absences. |
In that case, given your opinion/experience shared in your previous post, maybe it's time to see what other schools are like in other areas. |
It's clear (and expected), that different LEAs will treat the process slightly differently - why would that surprise you?
I've quoted the official figures for fines which unequivocally prove my point - it's not about nuance or context.
Also worth noting that the fines system does not include Private schools - those parents cannot be fined for taking holidays in term time.
Go figure.
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| NickYoung wrote: |
| hammerite wrote: |
| NickYoung wrote: |
With respect, I have been teaching since 2003, in the same organisation. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The authority knows that the parents of those kids with habitual absenteeism are most often not in a position to stand financial penalties. It's not a route our LEA follows.
Those are the kids whose attendance correlates with poor GCSE outcomes, and those are the stats that are used to justify fining for holiday absences. |
In that case, given your opinion/experience shared in your previous post, maybe it's time to see what other schools are like in other areas. |
It's clear (and expected), that different LEAs will treat the process slightly differently - why would that surprise you?
I've quoted the official figures for fines which unequivocally prove my point - it's not about nuance or context.
Also worth noting that the fines system does not include Private schools - those parents cannot be fined for taking holidays in term time.
Go figure. |
So you don't know exactly what you're talking about. You know what you're talking about for your school and how it's dealt with in your local authority.
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The Independent article I quoted and referenced clearly shows that, Nationally (not merely in my LEA), 90% of absence fines are for holiday absences.
Only 10% is for truancy.
Truancy is 90% of absence / holidays are 10% of absence.
Fines for holidays is not about discouraging absenteeism for educational attainment.
I'm not sure what it is that your aren't grasping, sorry.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@hammerite, That's a bit harsh. @NickYoung, does indeed appear to know what he is talking about. And while LEAs can, and do, have somewhat different policies for dealing with absenteeism this is an area where there is central "guidance" (i.e. direction). The only real difference is whether and how warnings are given before imposing a fine, but all LEAs have to show that they are enforcing. And in all state schools it is not in the discretion of the school.
@NickYoung, FYI the private school my kids attended does not authorise absences for holidays. We had a nice and supportive chat with Head of Year each time followed by a nasty letter from the Head telling us how naughty we were. That seemed to suit everyone. My kids moved from state primary to private at different points in their school careers, the state primary took exactly the same approach.
I really think this whole issue is overblown, as always if everyone is sensible there should be few problems. It is clear where there are real problems with attendance, and also clear which families have problems that need tackling. And it is not only "problem" families but those who persistently have their kids off school for the slightest sniffle, and those who also seem to regularly miss Fridays because parents are working from home. Even with missing a week for skiing, my kids were amongst the very best on the attendance stats.
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| NickYoung wrote: |
The Independent article I quoted and referenced clearly shows that, Nationally (not merely in my LEA), 90% of absence fines are for holiday absences.
Only 10% is for truancy.
Truancy is 90% of absence / holidays are 10% of absence.
Fines for holidays is not about discouraging absenteeism for educational attainment.
I'm not sure what it is that your aren't grasping, sorry. |
I think this says it all.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@zikomo, To the message 2 posts up - exactly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| NickYoung wrote: |
| @zikomo, To the message 2 posts up - exactly. |
I agree. You do know what you are talking about. And you are correct that the fine for holiday absence is not tackling the issue it purports to.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 19-12-24 17:29; edited 1 time in total
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Truancy is very different to parents taking kids out of school unauthorised.
And it's pretty obvious, to me at least, why it is treated differently.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Layne wrote: |
Truancy is very different to parents taking kids out of school unauthorised.
And it's pretty obvious, to me at least, why it is treated differently. |
Different in many ways. But also linked. If parents keep their kids off school for the slightest (or no) reason all the time, those kids are being taught that school attendance is not important. And they are then more likely to truant.
Fines for middle class parents for taking otherwise well-behaved and well-attending children out of school for a week of skiing addresses neither issue though. I think the problem really is that we can't stand to have any discretion in the system, as it will be seen as the middle-classes getting preferential treatment. When if fact in the old days of the Head being able to authorise it was good parents (and children) getting preferential treatment, which is as it should be.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@zikomo, my wife was a school Governor when this became a thing. Discretion was removed because many parents didn't give a fig. Even though they were supposed to have a discussion with the school and come to an agreement they were just take it as a right, sometimes taking them out for several weeks without a bye or leave.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Layne wrote: |
| @zikomo, my wife was a school Governor when this became a thing. Discretion was removed because many parents didn't give a fig. Even though they were supposed to have a discussion with the school and come to an agreement they were just take it as a right, sometimes taking them out for several weeks without a bye or leave. |
I know parents like that. It is despicable. And entitled. But surely the very fact that there was discretion means that those parents who take the mick are fined? We should be able to address that behaviour without having to fine a huge number of parents for a single week when their kids behave well and have good attendance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Taking kids out of school to cheat the system when the majority follow the rules. Guess an easy decision when it's free at the point of delivery. Those that cheat the system get a cheaper holiday than those that follow the rules.
Very much akin to people who don't turn up to hospital appointments for some spurious reasons such as the football was on.
Rules are simple - the state provide an education free at the point of delivery and in return you show respect to the tax payers that are funding it, the teachers that have prepared the lessons and those that, for example, didn't get a place, by turning up. Holidays are long enough.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We used to take our kids out of school with permission to go skiing , generally because it was often difficult to get leave during school holidays .
Went skiing every Easter irrespective of exams. I reckon they could do as much study on a ski holiday as they would at home.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Maybe a business opportunity for someone to come up with a "Holiday education package" workbook, eg, 16 different workbooks for 4 major languages at 4 different age groups, covering things like
Being able to speak some phrases in the local language
Knowing the capital city
Knowing the bordering countries
Etc
With the proviso "Yes you can go in term time, but you need to buy this workbook for £10 plus a deposit of £150 which you get back when you return the completed workbook in the child's handwriting"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@tangowaggon, Great idea... although I'm surprised no one has done it already.
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Look at this and please try to see, fining parents for taking kids on a holiday has nothing to do with tackling the cause and effect of absence and attainment.
https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/pupil-absence-in-schools-in-england
In 2022/23, there were 1.4 million pupils who were persistently absent (miss 10% of classes).
There were 158,000 pupils with attendance below 50%. These pupils, let's say "rarely", achieve 5 GCSEs at 4 and above.
These are the pupils who correlate with poor educational attainment.
If you are of a sensitive nature, don't click into the "pupil characteristics" or "ethnicity" data.
Only 53,000 pupils were taken out of school, for a holiday (the vast majority young, and in the summer term). They are the ones being threatened with parental fines.
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| James77 wrote: |
I have 2 children and never taken them out for school for a holiday (although plenty do).
As far as I'm concerned, it was my decision to have kids, I knew the rules of the club when I joined as do every parent. You have to suck it up, afford what you can, save or go without.
We're going twice this year, new year and February half term. My kids are fully aware of the sacrifices I make to provide as much as I can for my kids that is a good lesson for them not being handed everything on a plate. |
Well said Sir.
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| Joy Zipper wrote: |
| James77 wrote: |
I have 2 children and never taken them out for school for a holiday (although plenty do).
As far as I'm concerned, it was my decision to have kids, I knew the rules of the club when I joined as do every parent. You have to suck it up, afford what you can, save or go without.
We're going twice this year, new year and February half term. My kids are fully aware of the sacrifices I make to provide as much as I can for my kids that is a good lesson for them not being handed everything on a plate. |
Well said Sir. |
Absolutely!
Though none of which explains why we threaten to fine parents who take a 5-day holiday in term time, but don't fine the parents of kids who attend less that 50% of the time.
The Law states that it is the responsibility of parents to ensure attendance - but only in the case of those choosing to take a holiday experience, rather than those staying at home playing Xbox.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@NickYoung, you seem to have an agenda.
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| Layne wrote: |
| @NickYoung, you seem to have an agenda. |
If calling out the Govts agenda on penalising the parents of well-attending pupils with monetary penalties, under the lie of them adversely affecting their educational attainment, whilst simultaneously failing to take the same action against parents who fail to meet their legal obligation to ensure their children attend school "regularly" is an agenda...then yes, I have an agenda.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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At 5 'race training' probably wouldn't work, but if she's already confident, maybe a glacier in October holidays? That's what I did with mine at about 6. April holidays up high you can usually get a decent rate. In a couple of years if she's still keen you can find ESF 'race training' most weeks somewhere for half days anyways which should be approved or go along with one of the many UK clubs who do race training weeks which should also be approved. But beware, I intentionally put mine in 'race training' to get a week out of school and it's been financially downhill since then.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
| @NickYoung, you seem to have an agenda. |
Actually, what I seem to have is..all the facts, evidence and empirical data on my side.
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| James77 wrote: |
I have 2 children and never taken them out for school for a holiday (although plenty do).
As far as I'm concerned, it was my decision to have kids, I knew the rules of the club when I joined as do every parent. You have to suck it up, afford what you can, save or go without.
We're going twice this year, new year and February half term. My kids are fully aware of the sacrifices I make to provide as much as I can for my kids that is a good lesson for them not being handed everything on a plate. |
Plate or no plate, your kids get handed two ski trips. Good for them! Others might just go without. And as the pandemic taught us the most essential workers aren't always the best paid. So at least for me it's very hard to see how to construct a merit based argument around this.
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You know it makes sense.
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You mentioned she was coming up to 5. They legally don’t have to be in school until the term after they turn 5. For example when my daughter turned 5 in January she didn’t need to legally be in school until the term after the Easter holidays. We could go on as many ski holidays as we wanted before Easter with no risk of a fine. You’re unlucky if she turns 5 before Christmas as she would need to be in school after Christmas.
After then there is no loop whole.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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How much would it be feasible to link (holiday-based) absence to attainment, with fines for breach?
If the idea is to keep grades up, there should be no fine for achieving good grades. Eg provided the child gets X grades at end of year, no fine is applied.
Then it’s for the family to work out when and how hard the child should study in order to get good end of year grades. As with the rest of life.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Orange200 an education policy initiative to enable well off families with kids with no SENs to have cheaper ski holidays. What could possibly be wrong with that?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Orange200, what if the child isn’t very academic, ok to penalise? They’ll get enough of that later in life surely.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They’ll get enough of that later in life surely.
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They will, but those penalties might have started much earlier in life. All those kids who start school still in nappies, and/or already overweight, and with poor communication skills because their parents don't really talk to them, don't step into education with great prospects.
Yes, the need to cram ski holidays into the holidays is a pain (and the reason why my long journey to the Alps can't start till 2pm today) but I'm trying to be brave about it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Origen wrote: |
All those kids who start school still in nappies, and/or already overweight, and with poor communication skills because their parents don't really talk to them, don't step into education with great prospects.
Yes, the need to cram ski holidays into the holidays is a pain (and the reason why my long journey to the Alps can't start till 2pm today) but I'm trying to be brave about it. |
Perhaps a slight generalisation of the non academic, I know some pretty well brough up people who arent that way inclined.
And taking kids out of school to go skiing is rather a first world issue.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Origen wrote: |
| @Orange200 an education policy initiative to enable well off families with kids with no SENs to have cheaper ski holidays. What could possibly be wrong with that? |
What on earth? There never has been a "education policy initiative" to enable anyone to take their kids out of school for cheap holidays. And no-one is suggesting that there should be. What there used to be is a policy where an absence could be authorised by the Head, and it was for the Head to decide if the absence was justified. That is not the same thing at all. A Head Teacher is perfectly capable of making that judgement, and we should trust them to do so.
And all this faux outrage is just that, faux. There is no reason at all why families and children who have a good attendance and behaviour record should not be treated differently than those who do not. What an awful thing to suggest. Mostly as the logical conclusion to that is that poor attendance and behaviour do not need to be addressed with specialist support and some consequences. Which is frankly ridiculous.
And passing moral judgement on parents who decide to let their otherwise well-behaved and attending kids to miss the occasional week of school is completely uncalled for. Each parent needs to make their own judgement on how to bring their children up, and certainly don't need others here to tell them how to do so.
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@Origen, @ster, what is the aim of the policy? If the aim is to have children get better grades at the end of the year, I don’t see a problem. If the aim is to have some fake illusion of “fairness”, when children grow up in vastly different households with vastly different parenting skills, and different abilities to pay for extra tuition, then carry on with the status quo.
And I said absence, not skiing holiday.
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I know some pretty well brough up people who arent that way inclined.
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Well yes, don't we all. But the idea we should add to the already substantial disbenefits of those who are "badly brought up" is pretty grim.
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| Origen wrote: |
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I know some pretty well brough up people who arent that way inclined.
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Well yes, don't we all. But the idea we should add to the already substantial disbenefits of those who are "badly brought up" is pretty grim. |
Sorry I am confused by this and do not want to misinterpret. Can you explain how those disbenefits for the "badly brought up" would be added to by anything said by anyone here? I may have missed something, or as I said I may be misreading you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| t44tomo wrote: |
| I did used to sometime ring them in sick on the Friday morning before half term so we could get cheaper flights. |
Remember it's 48 hours for physical sickness from their last chunder so you could have gone on the Wednesday
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FAQ
