I'm just about to book an apartment in Samoens for a week over new year. I'll probably be driving down and having been there briefly in the summer a few years ago, I don't recall there being any mountain passes to climb over. As such, do you think I'd need winter tyres? Car will be parked up for the rest of the week, so don't really want to fork out if they're unlikely to be needed.
Cheers
Nick
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It's an unanswerable question if, in effect, you're asking whether the weather conditions will favour you having winter tyres (or all-seasons with the 3-peaks-&-snowflake 3PMFS). Worst case scenario isn't so much 100% snow (when you can just put and keep your chains on), but a mix of tarmac, snow and slush. In the latter case the winters/3PMFS will press on happily, versus your summers sliding around but not being able to take chains. In this case, it's a probability/risk/consequences judgement that really, only you can make.
You'll get a lot of responses, varying from 'I've been to Samoëns every year since 1896 and never needed winter tyres' to someone experiencing the worst case conditions above on their one ski trip to the area. But they probably won't help inform your decision that much.
Here's an AI analysis if that helps:
Cold Temperatures: Samoëns typically experiences cold temperatures during the winter months, with average highs ranging from 4°C to 7°C (39°F to 45°F) and average lows ranging from -2°C to -6°C (28°F to 21°F).
Snowfall: The region receives significant snowfall during the winter months, with an average annual snowfall of 242 cm (95 in). December and January are usually the snowiest months, making it an ideal time for skiing and snowboarding.
Freeze-Thaw Conditions: The weather in Samoëns during the winter months can be characterized by freeze-thaw conditions, with temperatures fluctuating above and below freezing. This can lead to icy roads and sidewalks, as well as challenging skiing conditions.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 4-12-24 16:28; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You may not need specific Winter Tyres but you will need either (or both) 3PMFS rated tyres or snow chains. This is the Law in France and it appears they will be enforcing it from this year. Of course they may not…?
Hmmm I think you've answered the question... I just recalled it being a fairly big, flat valley road leading to the village and wondered if it was typically well gritted or cleared making snow chains / tyres unnecessary given no real climbing to be done. However, on balance I think it would be better to just part with the cash for peace of mind.
Thanks both
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Do you NEED winter tyres? No. It is entirely possible, indeed likely, that you would make it there and back on summer tyres.
SHOULD you have winter tyres? Yes. If you value safety. Winter tyres will give good traction if there is snow. But more importantly they significantly reduce stopping distances in colder temperatures (below 7 degrees), and also normally better in cold and wet.
I would not drive to the alps (or in most of Europe for that matter) on summer tyres. I just could not justify knowing that I was taking an unnecessary risk with my family's safety. As we are rural and do a lot of miles (and live in Scotland), I put winter tyres on every year anyway. It does not cost any more over the life cycle of the winter and summer tyres. Many here now use all season tyres which are a pretty good compromise, so that is also an option, although I still prefer pure winters.
@LaForet, and thereby proving the lack of utility of "AI"s right now.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@NLR76, the legal position is clear - you don't need winter tyres provided you have chains in the boot in case of need. If you're staying down in Samoens village you are unlikely to have much snow around (maybe unfortunately!). I would wager that many French visitors to the area (even to higher resorts) won't have winter tyres. But make sure you can get chains on swiftly in the event you need them. It won't be for long (maybe just very locally) and you can reassure yourself that summer tyres with well-installed chains will tackle snow conditions which would defeat winter tyres.
After all it is free
After all it is free
The current tyre regs for France
Quote:
In areas showing these road signs, winter tyres or equivalent equipment will be compulsory from 1st November to 31st March.
Please check the website of the préfecture prior to travelling in these regions or ask the corresponding road safety office.
The following types of winter equipment are allowed:
Four winter tyres "3PMSF" and/or "M.S"/"M+S"/"M&S". From 1st November 2024 on, winter tyres must be certified "3PMSF" AND "M.S"/"M+S"/"M&S"
Four "all-season" tyres with "3PMSF" certificate
Removable anti-skid devices such as chains or socks that can be fitted to at least the two driven wheels
Winter equipment ist compulsory for light vehicles, commercial vehicles, coaches, motor homes and heavy goods vehicles without trailers.
Trucks with trailer or semi-trailer must have a pair of chains for the driving wheels even if they are equipped with winter tyres.
All vehicles have to comply to this regulation, even if they are registered abroad.
The motorist will be fined (135 Euro) and risks the immobilization of the vehicle if he does not comply to this regulation.
As of November 1, 2024, only tires with the Alpine symbol will be recognized as equivalent to snow chains. Other winter tires can still be purchased and used. However, you will need to carry snow chains if you plan to drive in the above areas between November 1 and March 31.
Whether it will be enforced if it is dry is a different question.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
If you do have an accident in winter in mountainous area and even if no injuries just damage to cars/property guess what your insurance will say? Compare that to cost of getting winter tyres and the added safety less chance for an accident.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@munich_irish, that's a very long way of saying that the OP does not legally need winter tyres but does need chains.
Quote:
guess what your insurance will say?
The insurance will obviously say that because you are a selfish, uncaring, idiot who doesn't care at all about your family and regardless of the fact that the driver of the car that skidded into you was 189% over the limit for blood alcohol you are a rich git who can afford to go skiing but is too tight to shell out for winter tyres and it's a cut and dried case. No need for any further evidence. Turn down his claim. And why not lock him up while you're at it?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
What @Origen says and @munich_irish quotes. As long as you have snow chains or socks in case of need you are legally fine. And Samoens is low enough (and no doubt on a snow plough route) that you will most likely not need to use them - but bad weather days do happen.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Origen wrote:
@munich_irish, that's a very long way of saying that the OP does not legally need winter tyres but does need chains.
Quote:
guess what your insurance will say?
The insurance will obviously say that because you are a selfish, uncaring, idiot who doesn't care at all about your family and regardless of the fact that the driver of the car that skidded into you was 189% over the limit for blood alcohol you are a rich git who can afford to go skiing but is too tight to shell out for winter tyres and it's a cut and dried case. No need for any further evidence. Turn down his claim. And why not lock him up while you're at it?
That is exactly what would happen in Switzerland. Or Germany. Or The Netherlands. You are assumed to be at fault because your car is not properly equiped.
Also there is a repetition of a dangerous myth. Winter tyres are NOT mandated in most places because there is a need for traction is snow. They are mandated because of the the temperature. Winter tyres are designed to provide more grip in snow for sure, and they do so. But the primary safety effect is to reduce stopping distances, and they do this quite substantially. Summer tyres and snow chains are not at all a substitute (although as I said earlier you will likely make it there and back with that combination, if that is your only criteria).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
That is exactly what would happen in Switzerland. Or Germany. Or The Netherlands.
The OP is going to France. Where IMO the majority of cars heading into ski resorts are not equipped with winter tyres.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
In the whole region you need either proper winter tyres or chains/socks in the boot. It's the local law, please respect it!
From experience it has happened these were necessary, it can snow down the valley during the season. When this happens there's always someone that thinks they're better drivers *and* don't have the necessary equipment. In previous years they'd just be laughed at, or incur the ire of the people blocked by their lack of clairvoyance. But from this year the gendarmes will show no leniency, and happily fine whoever blocks the road.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
In previous years they'd just be laughed at, or incur the ire of the people blocked by their lack of clairvoyance.
Not necessarily. Although there has never been, and still isn't, a legal requirement to carry chains if you have winter tyres it has long, long, been the case that on busy and snowy days the police would turn back any vehicles without chains - even those with winter tyres. winter tyres, good as they are, are not always going to get you through thick snow. And roads, especially minor ones, are not ploughed every five minutes or all night.
On days when the police were not patrolling chain use there were certainly often cars in trouble, including people who had left it too late to put chains on and were trying to do it in unsuitable and dangerous spots. Nobody, IME, laughed. I have sworn, sometimes, and also stopped to help, sometimes.
Regardless of what kind of tyres you have, unless you have a good 4WD and good winter tyres, you need not just to have the snowchains in the boot, but be able to fit them efficiently. Which means quickly, before your hands drop off.
Finally, after a snowy transfer day, a fair proportion of the cars abandoned at the side of the road were big 4WDs. I confess that I did often laugh at that.
And if you have to do this on your way to Samoens, then REJOICE. You're in for a great week. More likely there'll scarcely be any snow at village level.
I've driven to Samoens quite a few times over the years...
And three of those times I've stayed in apartments or chalets on Rte De Levy, above Intersport and Vin Sur Vin.
It's only a five minute walk to the centre, but it gets exciting when iced, which it frequently is; you have to be very careful even walking down, never mind driving.
I went once in my Subaru and go halfway up the hill before it would go no more and just started to slide backwards, even with brakes on. Somehow, I managed to spin it round before getting to the corner below and the drop into the field and bring it to a halt when it got less steep. The only way I could get up the hill to Chalet Eridan was to put chains on. And the car was equipped with 4WD and winter tyres!
The other two times it was still snowy all over the road, but not sheet ice so my Peugeot with winters on got up there.
However, IIRC the road out of Cluses to Samoens can also be a bit sketchy after snowfall so I wouldn't dream of going there without winter tyres. Though to be fair, I use them year round on both my cars.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Origen wrote:
Quote:
That is exactly what would happen in Switzerland. Or Germany. Or The Netherlands.
The OP is going to France. Where IMO the majority of cars heading into ski resorts are not equipped with winter tyres.
You still don't seem to understand how winter tyres work, and what they are for. Just because you can "make it" there and back does not mean you are not at substantially increased risk. Summer tyres and chains will mean you can "make it". But also mean that for much of the time you have been driving to where the snow is, your stopping distance and steering traction has been substantially reduced. Winter driving in summer tyres is foolhardy, and my point was that many nations think it so foolhardy that you will be deemed to be at fault in an accident by dint of not being properly equipped. That is completely unrelated to whether or not you need snow chains, or indeed whether or not there is any snow on the road. Best is of course winter tyres and chains.
I don't see the relevance of the fact that you think the majority of cars heading to ski resorts will not have winter tyres. Just because others also don't understand what winter tyres are for, and choose to be less safe, has no bearing at all on whether you should.
Hmmm I think you've answered the question... I just recalled it being a fairly big, flat valley road leading to the village and wondered if it was typically well gritted or cleared making snow chains / tyres unnecessary given no real climbing to be done. However, on balance I think it would be better to just part with the cash for peace of mind.
Thanks both
Howsoever way you prepare, the route from junction 15 "Fillinges" to "Taninges" located in the Giffre Valley (where Samoëns is too) is a very gentle gradient that avoids busier more traffic prone roads. It more or less follows an old railway route, the station of which is still there in Samoëns village. Its not small and winding, with very good accessibility even in "significant " weather conditions.
Worthwhile to avoid the high traffic and much steeper gradient coming up from Cluses on which many will travel.
The roads in and around Samoëns are regularly and extensively ploughed, we have stayed often in winter there and they are well prepared.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
zikomo wrote:
Origen wrote:
Quote:
That is exactly what would happen in Switzerland. Or Germany. Or The Netherlands.
The OP is going to France. Where IMO the majority of cars heading into ski resorts are not equipped with winter tyres.
You still don't seem to understand how winter tyres work, and what they are for. Just because you can "make it" there and back does not mean you are not at substantially increased risk. Summer tyres and chains will mean you can "make it". But also mean that for much of the time you have been driving to where the snow is, your stopping distance and steering traction has been substantially reduced. Winter driving in summer tyres is foolhardy, and my point was that many nations think it so foolhardy that you will be deemed to be at fault in an accident by dint of not being properly equipped. That is completely unrelated to whether or not you need snow chains, or indeed whether or not there is any snow on the road. Best is of course winter tyres and chains.
I don't see the relevance of the fact that you think the majority of cars heading to ski resorts will not have winter tyres. Just because others also don't understand what winter tyres are for, and choose to be less safe, has no bearing at all on whether you should.
You do realise that element has ordinarily not been part of test criteria for 3PMS accreditation don't you ? Lateral loading and traction, in other words. Last time I checked it, there was just a test for longitudinally assessed quantification.
I don't see the relevance of the fact that you think the majority of cars heading to ski resorts will not have winter tyres. Just because others also don't understand what winter tyres are for, and choose to be less safe, has no bearing at all on whether you should.
I do know what winter tyres are for but thanks for the lecture. I now have Cross Climates but always had winter tyres in winter for the years I spent winters in the Alps. The OP asked about the situation and I think it make sense to give people the facts (and the fact that most cars driving into the French resorts will not have winter tyres is a relevant fact) and let them make up their own minds. Not imply sanctimoniously that anyone who chooses not to have winter tyres doesn't give a FF about their family's safety.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Origen wrote:
Quote:
I don't see the relevance of the fact that you think the majority of cars heading to ski resorts will not have winter tyres. Just because others also don't understand what winter tyres are for, and choose to be less safe, has no bearing at all on whether you should.
I do know what winter tyres are for but thanks for the lecture. I now have Cross Climates but always had winter tyres in winter for the years I spent winters in the Alps. The OP asked about the situation and I think it make sense to give people the facts (and the fact that most cars driving into the French resorts will not have winter tyres is a relevant fact) and let them make up their own minds. Not imply sanctimoniously that anyone who chooses not to have winter tyres doesn't give a FF about their family's safety.
Literally all you have talked about is traction on snow. Suggesting the only use for winter tyres is helping you make it into resort when there is a bit of snow, which was not helpful or true. You did rightly say that chains will sometimes also be needed.
Nothing "sanctimonious" about stating the facts, which is what I did. It is not safe to drive in winter conditions on summer rubber, regardless of whether there is snow or not.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@ski3, Stopping distance is indeed the main criteria. But I think there is also a skid test, so some lateral testing. The better tyres definitely test for this though, so something worth looking out for. In my view stopping distance is the key safety issue anyway.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
The point about other people not having winter tyres is relevant because the most difficulty any of us are likely to encounter is other people who don’t have appropriate equipment and little or no experience of driving in poor weather conditions or on difficult surfaces. Similarly, when it snowed here two weeks ago my winter tyres and chains were not going to get me around the three jack-knifed lorries on the hill at the end of the loch.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@fuzzydunlop thanks for the heads up there, unfortunately wrong size.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
zikomo wrote:
@ski3, Stopping distance is indeed the main criteria. But I think there is also a skid test, so some lateral testing. The better tyres definitely test for this though, so something worth looking out for. In my view stopping distance is the key safety issue anyway.
Probably not for a general question thread, but interesting view here
And comparison to AI statement of :- "No, lowering tire pressure does not help in snow. In fact, underinflated tires can make your engine work harder and increase wear and tear on your tires.
Instead, you should maintain your tires at the recommended pressure from your vehicle's manufacturer to maintain traction in all weather conditions. Many vehicle manufacturers recommend operating winter tires 3–5 psi higher than the recommended pressure for summer and all-season tires. "
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Carry chains or socks and you will be fine.
Personally we always have high quality 3PMFS fitted but we regularly visit multiple high resorts and go over high passes during the winter.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Origen wrote:
And if you have to do this on your way to Samoens, then REJOICE. You're in for a great week
That's the best way to look at it, thanks!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@NLR76, welcome to SH's.
Not for you to know being new but this subject has been done to death. Partly because as you've seen above there is the legal requirement (which has changed fairly recently in France), the what you can get away with without getting stuck requirement, the what is a sensible/pragmatic approach requirement and the squeaky clean requirement. And they are not always mutually exclusive.
You can also add in multiple other factors - winters v all season, chains/socks, actual tyre quality, when/where you are going exactly.
We've just got a new car. On the old one we had two sets of wheels with summer and winter tyres. But there is an overhead to doing this and all seasons have improved a lot, so we have bought premium all seasons. As above, one thing to note is that winters/all seasons aren't just for snowy mountain roads - they are advantageous on cold, wet, muddy, icy surfaces.
We also always have chains.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The simplest and easiest way to meet the requirements is to carry a pair of snow socks, either fabric or mesh. That will get you through 90% of the snowy/icy situations you'll encounter in the French Alps as an occasional tourist. Of course if you live there or make multiple trips, then you're getting into the winter tyres/chains etc debate. But I can almost guarantee that you will not need anything other than normal (either summer or 3 season) tyres driving to Samoens. Why? Because it's at 700 meters and the snow line rarely gets down that low. There is one shallow pass -- Col de Chatillon -- above Cluses, then you're good.
The beauty of socks is that you can put them on in a few mintues (i.e. before your hands freeze!). If you drive slowly and keep an eye on your wheels now and again, you can get through almost anything -- I drove over the Col de Aravis during the 2014 (?) snowmageddon that closed the A40 with socks.
Metal chains are a last resort to me.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I always thought chains were pretty good and socks were pretty rubbish and was rather unreasonably proud of how fast I could get chains on my (winter tyred) wheels. Then one very snowy day, driving slowly along a narrow, hilly, bendy road behind another car, I realised (when he was on a bend ahead of me and I could see his front tyres) that he had snow socks on. I drove behind him for the best part of five quite challenging miles and was impressed with how the socks performed. I've not dissed them since. The socks you actually put on your wheels will outperform the chains you have in the boot.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Time for the chart, I think: it's not meant to be definitive, just indicative of what technology applies when. The lateral scale is meant to be from warm summer on the left to icy winter on the right. It has its deficiencies, but hopefully it'll help some people picture the scope of discussion about summer, winter and all-season tyres, socks and chains.
Really, the winter strategy is to try as far as you can to defer the point where you fit chains. If you stay on summer tyres, then you have the option to first fit socks, and only when they aren't good enough, have to resort to chains. If you have all-seasons, then the critical point (where you have to fit chains) is reached much later (socks are pointless because the tyre's capabilities exceed the socks' anyway). If you have winter tyres then the critical point is even later, albeit it's still there: for example, when you have to climb a frozen drive to get out of your accommodation, even if the weather is beautiful and sunny.
The downside of chains for summer tyres is that they can really only be used when there's solid snow or ice under the tyre. If you're in alternating tarmac/slush/snow then they're problematic. You can't be constantly putting them on and taking them off as conditions alternate.
If it's any consolation, I've noticed that locals in our village - especially services like postal or white van types - all give it a go first before putting on chains, especially if it's just for a short stretch of road. Last year an electrician got stuck on the ramp up out of our car park because, I imagine, he really didn't want to get out and get wet putting on chains just to get to the top of 20 metres of road. As it happened, he got stuck half way up and from his body language, he obviously wasn't that happy about having to grab a chain set out the back and fit them. Three or four residents waited impatiently at the bottom for him to sort himself out. The first again gave it a go and similarly got stuck. The other then decided they'd have to fit chains and proceeded to do so. So it's not just visitors who have issues.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 5-12-24 15:50; edited 2 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Once you have chains, or socks, on then presumably the nature of the tyre underneath becomes irrelevant?
Nobody here is arguing that winter tyres are not superior to summer tyres in winter conditions. The discussion is whether using summer tyres with chains on the boot is a rational approach to driving to Samoens or akin to showing a reckless disregard not only for your own passengers but everyone on the road around you.
@Origen As you say, with chains or socks on, the underlying tyre is much less important in providing traction. But with chains, you can't go very far at all on tarmac and with socks, you can't go too far before they'll shred. There's really no ideal solution compared to having full winter tyres on: everything has pros and cons.
I'm still sympathetic with someone who is asking themselves the same question as the OP, because theirs is probably a very hard situation to make a judgement about. The relatively low altitude of the resort makes snowfall less likely than at a higher resort (e.g. at 1500m or more). Conversely, it makes 'alternating' conditions of tarmac, slush and snow more likely - conditions where chains can be problematic.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
, Jura (39), Loire (42), Haute-Loire (43), Lozère (4
