 Poster: A snowHead
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A Eurostar train weighs about 800tonnes & carries about 770 passengers.
An Easyjet A319 is about 75tonnes max TO weight and carries 156 passengers.
If 100 people want to make that journey, which is the most environmentally friendly? What about 200, 300, 400, etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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richmond, it tends to be cheaper if you change at Paris, rather than direct snowtrain. Think there are some very old threads on this on snowheads somewhere...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GrahamN, I think helis of the type used for skiing use about 150 - 200l/hour (which seems remarkably little, and may be rubbish). That suggests an output of about 0.5 - 0.6 tonnes CO2/hour.
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I was looking around for some figures late last night and I didnt really find what I was looking for on air travel, however in my search I came across this contraption called the SkyCat:
A new airship concept under design/contruction that makes use of the lighter-than-air lift of airships combined with hovercraft technology, thus is able to take off and land on water, ground anything fairly flat with no ground crew or ground infrastructure. Apparently it can do vertical take offs and landings too, but that kind of puts the fuel efficency out the window. The proposed medium sized 220model could carry 900 passengers !
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brian
brian
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Winterhighland, cool. How fast can it go ?
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Winterhighland,
900...!!!
Nope, no good.... too much trashing of lines....!! that'll be a piste...
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Tim Brown wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Rob, it would be a symbolic sacrificial initiative by the governing body of our sport. |
Symbolic? Now I'm a little confused as to what your position is, because you have also stated:
"the environmental impact per skier is very significant."
Have you now totally revised your position? |
I'm sure that carbon emissions per heli-skier is much greater than skiing lift-served terrain, but the number of skiers who "indulge" in heli-skiing is so small as to make very little impact compared to, say, the number of people who leave their TV's on standby. |
Yes, it would be a symbolic move - but symbols are important in the modern world of instant communications. The message would be that FIS was aiming to reduce pollution by the largest amount possible, while impacting the smallest possible number of skiers. |
Sorry Martin, I totally disagree. Symbols are merely ways of doing nothing. If every sport made a symbolic gesture, we'd be no further forward. Banning helisking would be FIS's way of saying, 'This is how important we think climate change is, by being prepared to make zero impact'. Banning Helisking is pointless.
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brian
brian
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To answer my own question, the one above cruises at 80 knots (about 90mph).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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flying_squirrel, I was thinking about the cost of training v driving in general, not just to the Alps. Once there's mor ethan one of you, it almost seems to be cheaper to drive or fly pretty much anywhere, which is a shame bearing in mind the environmental disadvantage of driving and flying.
My willingness to help the environment stops short of travelling by coach, I'm afraid.
BTW, I agree that coming down against heli skiing would be a hollow gesture.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Choose a resort with slow, non detachable, charlifts. They use far less power P/P.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rungsp wrote: |
You mentioned 1.5 tons of CO2/hr from helis....reality check: Helis dont even burn that amount of raw fuel in an hour (well maybe a big military Chinook does), so how could one of the by products weigh that much?
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Carbon from fuel.
Oxygen from atmosphere.
How much does the intake air weigh?
The thin ice rests on the assumption, rampant through this entire "debate", that the project is to reduce CO2 pollution.
If that is the project, ban people. UK skiers living far from an international rail terminal should simply not go skiing. US skiers should not fly over. Locals only. That's it.
If the project is to reduce unburned hydrocarbon emissions, particulate emissions, nitrogen oxides emissions from internal combustion engines flying at -by definition- low above-ground levels, then by all means, heli skiing is on the table to be banned. Rescue flights next, so ban mountaineering and off-piste skiing.
Or improve emissions standards for helicopters.
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To go sideways slightly, should we not question the amount of energy consumed in a snow dome? Especially somewhere like Dubai!
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You know it makes sense.
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I couldn't care less whether the FIS says it's for or against heli-skiing  . I neither take part or make a living from it. There are lots of other activities which are environmentally high-impact and about which I also couldn't give a rat's &rse, eg powerboating, skidoo-racing, drag-racing. There's much more damage done by people burning the Amazon rainforest on a campfire.
I suspect that the changing environment is inevitable and has little to do with humankind's many activities. If you consider how much the climate has changed in the last 12,000 years (since the last ice-age) with zero assistance from humans, it's fairly evident that the current changes are outside of our control. Sit back and enjoy the ride. If the Atlantic Conveyor switches off (which is looking increasingly likely), we'll all be wishing for a little global warming.
However, on the train vs plane, etc debate...
I have been thinking about the the impact of, say, a 100% fuel duty on av gas on air fares. How much of the, say, £60 for a return from Luton to Glasgow on EasyJet is directly attributable to fuel costs? Maybe £25? If you double that with a tax, the fare is still only £85 which still beats the train hands down I think. So, how much would av gas need to cost before the train is able to compete with air fares?? How about if the train operators are subsidised by the total duty taken on av gas?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Red Leon, Wow, I used to be sceptical about global warming untila few years ago, and thought that no-one really argued against the reasonable scientific basis anymore! Good to see sceptics are still out there, even if its in some delusional form! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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30 yrs time and we will have used up all the fossil fuels, so we shouldnt have to worry about CO2 emmissions for much longer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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by which time we could all be up a certain creek, minus a certain key peice of equipment!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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flying_squirrel, Thats a rather pessimistic viewpoint.
Anyhow world war 3 is about to kick off and most of us will die in that. So stuff global warming. If we stopped invading countries think of all the CO2 we would save. Have you seen the emission figures for a stealth bomber
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Frosty the Snowman, well yeah maybe, who knows. Actually, I am wondering if global warming could result in more precipitation over europe due to increase evaporation off the atlantic, meaning more snow over the alps, as long as you are high enough! So don't go buying any chalets below 1500m altitude! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ah Global Warming...now we can have a debate (assuming the eco-fascists have left a bit of room for alternative viewpoints!).
I'll just point out one thing: Greenland is so called because it used to be a green and fertile place, and was settled by the Vikings for farming. It remained in that state for several generations before Global Cooling made farming non-viable and the Greenland we know today became the norm.
Now that cooling was a long term trend, was mankind responsible...I doubt it.
Perhaps/probably mankind is responsible for Global Warming, perhaps it can be stopped or slowed, perhaps not.
Well frankly I am not that worried long term..the Macro eco system will adjust, and so will mankind.
I'm MUCH more worried about chemical style pollution and the poisening of our world...and my main fears are with the rapid industrialisation of China etc where they really don't give a fig about those things.
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| rungsp wrote: |
| my main fears are with the rapid industrialisation of China etc where they really don't give a fig about those things. |
Indeed.
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And India
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rungsp, an all-time ongoing thread topic......
This is all I really think :
yes there is always a degree of uncertainty, especially when predicting global climates 50 years into the future (I think 30 years ago experts were predicting an accelerated global cool-down due to some theory), but the consensus of opinion is that there will be a period of discomfort for the human race, its economy and what we consider the norm, based on "everything changing a bit", probably nothing more accurate than that. And like you say, in the long-term what does it matter as things swing back and forth etc. Unless there is a tipping point element to all this, which is what I think the ecofascists bang on about.
Enough of that, I have exhausted my limited viewpoint on the topic, as it is very nearly time for me to go and have a beer!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My pet hate is plastic golf tees..people lose so many of them, they should certainly be bio, IMV
And beore you counter, I don't lose many balls....honest guv...!!
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| Quote: |
| I think 30 years ago experts were predicting an accelerated global cool-down due to some theory |
Global Dimming... The concept was particulate pollution in the atmosphere would reduce energy from the Sun reaching the surface thus result in cooling climate. One theory for milder and perhaps less snowy winters in Northern Europe since the early 90s is the collapse of Communisim which resulted in the shutdown of vast swathes of innefficent polluting industry in Eastern Europe. Cleaner, more energy reaching the surface, less particulates, less material to "seed" snowflake formation. Interesting concept.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Global Dimming... The concept was particulate pollution in the atmosphere would reduce energy from the Sun reaching the surface thus result in cooling climate. One theory for milder and perhaps less snowy winters in Northern Europe since the early 90s is the collapse of Communisim which resulted in the shutdown of vast swathes of innefficent polluting industry in Eastern Europe. Cleaner, more energy reaching the surface, less particulates, less material to "seed" snowflake formation. Interesting concept
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So, if we ensured that our cars, planes, helecopters etc. were de-tuned such that they 'spewed out' dense black particulate-laden exhaust fumes, then it would cause Global Dimming, thereby more snow - so the more we used planes, went heli-skiing etc then the better would be the skiing conditions.  EXCELLENT
Or, how about in winter (when we don't need them as much) we all leave our fridge and freezer doors open to cool the planet and get better snow
 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Probably not as the Dimming effect from the planes etc would be offset by the warming effect of the C02. It's really all conjuncture, there is a growing support for the view that reduced particulate pollution has helped accelerate the apparent global warming. That said, climate change is a bit of a misnomer, Climate IS ALWAYS CHANGING.
In terms of Scottish Snowsports, we are yet in this apparent age of global warming to plumb the depths of some of the 1960s seasons. These things seem to be cyclical. The huge scotspine trunks in peat bogs on CairnGorm Mountain bear witness to a period where the climate was sufficiently benign that the natural tree line was a 1000ft higher than today, someone above mentioned the Medival Warm Period and Greenland, yet there is moranic evidence that active glacial processes were occuring in the Northern Cairngorms as late as the mid to late 1800s as Europe bounced back from the Little Ice Age. Knock 1 to 1.5c off average temperature (providing we keep close to average precipitation) and you could expect to ski Coire Cas most of the year and see glaclial formation in the high corries.
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| rungsp wrote: |
Ah Global Warming...now we can have a debate (assuming the eco-fascists have left a bit of room for alternative viewpoints!).
I'll just point out one thing: Greenland is so called because it used to be a green and fertile place, and was settled by the Vikings for farming. It remained in that state for several generations before Global Cooling made farming non-viable and the Greenland we know today became the norm.
Now that cooling was a long term trend, was mankind responsible...I doubt it.
Perhaps/probably mankind is responsible for Global Warming, perhaps it can be stopped or slowed, perhaps not.
Well frankly I am not that worried long term..the Macro eco system will adjust, and so will mankind.
I'm MUCH more worried about chemical style pollution and the poisening of our world...and my main fears are with the rapid industrialisation of China etc where they really don't give a fig about those things. |
Before entering the global warming debate, I would recommend that anyone who wants to be better informed should read this excellent in-depth article: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-16/ns_jeh.html (Written not by a fascist but by a scientist who has studied the heating effect of human-made gases since 1976.)
There's a lot to wade through, but one interesting point was that sea levels have risen naturally in the past, often quite rapidly:
"The Bølling warming about 14 000 years ago, for example, was accompanied almost simultaneously by sea level rise at a rate of 4–5 meters per century (Reference 2d)."
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You know it makes sense.
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| JT wrote: |
My pet hate is plastic golf tees..people lose so many of them, they should certainly be bio, IMV
And beore you counter, I don't lose many balls....honest guv...!! |
Good players only use wood ones 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Frosty the Snowman,
Why thank you... I only have wooden ones in my bag...:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Although the science and chemistry plus thermodynamics is far more interesting over there!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, I only ever have wood in my bag 
I wish I was a) A good enough skier to go heli-skiing
and
b) Rich enough to go heli-skiing
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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halfhand, ditto
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Martin Bell, Much time is spent digging out 4 stroke machines in the backcountry. |
Well, at least when global warming has melted all the snow, that problem will no longer exist!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Airships on the other hand only use fuel for propulsion in direction of travel
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What a fantastic vision; off to the mountains in an airship, waving multi coloured scarves. The discussion on this thread illustrates the importance of governments using fiscal measures to influence our choices. It is indeed daft that we can drive a car to the Alps (or Manchester) with one person inside, cheaper than taking the train, and that aviation fuel is cheap as chips. I admire people who spend more to go on the train, rather than fly cheaply, for the sake of the planet, but realistically most people will choose the cheapest option for themselves. Taxes should be used to ensure that the cheapest choice is also the most sustainable. The few altruistic individuals will not make much of a difference - maybe it would be better to take a cheapie airline and give the difference in cost to one of the environmental pressure groups to strengthen their lobbying. As for heli-skiing, I can't see any argument for banning heli-skiing whilst allowing helicopters to take fat cats from Nice airport to watch the Grand Prix in Monaco! All very French.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Airships on the other hand only use fuel for propulsion in direction of travel
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As for heli-skiing, I can't see any argument for banning heli-skiing whilst allowing helicopters to take fat cats from Nice airport to watch the Grand Prix in Monaco! All very French. |
There are maybe less rare species of wildlife trying to hibernate or eek out a fragile existence in the rigours of an alpine winter in Monaco (which, incidentally is not part of France). Species that would be disturbed by unfettered heliskiing. The Charteuse regional park, where I live, has asked ski tourers and snowshoers to avoid some routes in the area as they are important hibernation grounds for wild birds. Imagine the impact that helicopter activity has.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 5-08-06 17:09; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
