 Poster: A snowHead
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you can't fill a big ski resort purely with the wealthiest, which is a small percentage of society.
Or can you....?
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Well, some places (including some American resorts, I gather) are making a decent fist of that. Not people who ship in all their own cheap groceries from home and live in tiny apartments, but those who live high on the hog. When my lad cooked in Val d'Isere he asked the clients what they wanted and ran up huge bills (for lobster etc) that the clients paid for all the food at cost.
Megeve was said, years ago now, to have one of the biggest collection of Michelin starred restaurants outside Paris. Millionaires paid for lovely traditional wooden farmhouses in Poland to be taken apart, shipped to Megeve and rebuilt with all mod cons. And that in an area which is very far from snow sure.
Friends of my sister who had a big family chalet in Kitzbuhel used to send the chauffeur down in some huge car, with all their gear and then flew. The chauffeur got to stay, and have a nice week, then drove all the stuff back. I think some of us "punters" just have no idea at all how the other half ski!
Similar conversations are had in the world of sailing. The boats in marinas are ever more luxurious and people demand very swish facilities, hook up electricity, etc. It can easily cost £7K a year to have an ordinary size boat parked in a marina before you do anything with it. And lots of those people go skiing too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Ski lots, we are seeing lots and lots of parties of Asiatic tourists here in Chamonix, plus a huge Chinese investment in a 6(?) star hotel. (Unless that's gone off the rails?)
Weirdish things;
- many just get off a coach, wander around for a few hours, get knocked down taking photos in the middle of the road and get back on the bus 
- not weird the somewhat mediocre Chinese restaurant is full of Chinese appearing folk, the very good Indian's full of indians, likewise, bit like Benidorm with fish and chips I guess. But why eat mediocre french-ified Chinese food when you've just come from China?
- I don't know how the €€ spend is going - I think the economic uplift is more an uplift in North Americans who just want to spend their euros.
- I feel sorry for those who've arrived these week expecting the Aiguille (and everything else) to be open, and it's not
- Fondue in summer, outside, when it's 38C and burning sunshine 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Ski lots, we are seeing lots and lots of parties of Asiatic tourists here in Chamonix, plus a huge Chinese investment in a 6(?) star hotel. (Unless that's gone off the rails?)
Weirdish things;
- many just get off a coach, wander around for a few hours, get knocked down taking photos in the middle of the road and get back on the bus |
It's for the attention-seeking photo and likes on Weibo, Douyin, etc.
Snap and go.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@Ski lots, we are seeing lots and lots of parties of Asiatic tourists here in Chamonix, plus a huge Chinese investment in a 6(?) star hotel. (Unless that's gone off the rails?)
Weirdish things;
- many just get off a coach, wander around for a few hours, get knocked down taking photos in the middle of the road and get back on the bus |
It's for the attention-seeking photo and likes on Weibo, Douyin, etc.
Snap and go. |
There's definitely an Asian culture thing and photos. We went to Reykjavik a few years ago. Below our hotel window was a hot dog stand that had a queue of Asian tourists day and night, all snapping photos with these hot dogs. We eventually googled it and discovered that Clinton once ate there, and now it's a destination in it's own right.
We got married at the Assembly Rooms in Bath, and went with our photographer to get some photos on The Circus. As we were stood in the middle of it, there was a coach full of Asian folk going around. All were pressed up against the window photographing us. So no doubt I appear on those sites somewhere. Probably looking fairly perplexed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We were definitely doing the "catered chalet" as a group of friends in the mid to late 2000's.
Courch 1650 in 2005. Tignes in 2010. Exactly as others have said. Get a group of mates, and book out the chalet for 12 or 14. So that's in the days of internet, and just approaching smart phones. (also did a few self catered apartments in Mottaret, or La Tania other years that decade.)
Then 10 years off cos we had kids, and then 2 years in Les Men '23 & '24. The Block above Brasserie des Belleville Restaurant.
Yeah it's a bit fugly but the kids love it. it's ridiculously easy for ski school. You can easily watch/walk to any evening festivities etc.
What I've found interesting is that there seems to be a lot of self catered stuff popping up in Meribel Central. I wonder if it's due to Catered Chalets not being a thing any more.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 4-12-24 11:23; edited 1 time in total
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I also think it really depends on peoples individual needs. When booking for a group, some people always pipe up with "i want a hot tub"
I know that for a lot of people the hot tub, lazy mornings, long lunches is all part of going on holiday. and that's fine.
It's just not why I head to the mountains.
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due to Catered Chalets not being a thing any more
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That and AirBnB making the marketing a lot easier?
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yeah maybe.
I've posted this on the Dolomites thread, but it's fascinating to me how different the french and italian (accommodation) markets are.
france = still have loads of options in 3 Valleys for self catered apartments. even in the hallowed "middle" valley.
italy = almost no cheap accommodation in or around Sella Ronda.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
My point was you can't fill a big ski resort purely with the wealthiest, which is a small percentage of society.
Or can you....? |
What is your cutoff for "wealthiest"? Top 10%. Top 1%. Clearly a big difference between those two numbers.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Ski lots- many just get off a coach, wander around for a few hours, get knocked down taking photos in the middle of the road and get back on the bus
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I saw this phenomenon in Bowness-on-Windimere a few years ago. Totally bizarre.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@UtahGetMeTwo, I get the impression that quite a lot of people enjoy a hot tub after a long hard day on the mountain. They're not mutually exclusive.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It is fair to say that there is no shortage of high end catered chalets available in the market. The lower end of the market is clearly being squeezed/gone.
@Origen, A similar phenomenon has happened in yachting. The middle class has been squeezed out of the market. You only need look at the yachts being marketed (as you pointed out above) and the generally successful ones to see that the lower end of the market is getting smaller.
I also enjoy a hot tub after a day on the slopes. That isn't to say I'm not up and waiting for first lift though.
*edit to say that there is actually a shortage of high end chalets, as you need to book a full year ahead to get any availability.
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| Origen wrote: |
| @UtahGetMeTwo, I get the impression that quite a lot of people enjoy a hot tub after a long hard day on the mountain. They're not mutually exclusive. |
I also get that impression...
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You know it makes sense.
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The middle class has been squeezed out of the market.
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The "middle class" has not been squeezed out of yachting by cost. Many could afford to sail in the sort of boats which many families enjoyed some years ago (and which are currently available for sale in large numbers and at very low cost, to the sorrow of the people trying to sell them).
But those boats don't have twin aft cabins, powerful diesel engines and bow thrusters. Not to mention microwaves and tellies.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Origen, Cowes week is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Look at the participation numbers compared to mid 90s. That isn't about aft cabins and TVs.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What is it about, then? Genuine question. I'm not a Cowes week person. But I'd say there's now a lot less participation by families in handicap cruiser racing than there was in the past.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But Cowes week says it's the biggest regatta in the world. So something's going right, I guess!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes it is still the biggest multi day event I believe. Others have decreased as well.
I know many boat builders (big ones who are personal friends) ascribe it as I did above to the squeezed middle. I suspect it is a combination of the squeezed middle becoming more time poor with the addition of a sort of Blackpool effect where people would rather travel on a cheap flight city break.
*The Round the Island is the largest participation I believe. The Barcolana in Trieste is the largest single start. 1000 boats from 100ft to 15ft all on the same start line waiting for the same gun. It is complete and total madness although plenty of fun. Only in Italy...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The slogan/concept of the "squeezed middle" needs unpacking. Often people are looking at a very short timescale (from quite a narrow world view) when claiming, for example, that skiing is slowly becoming too expensive. It's always been too expensive for most, as has yachting.
Boat builders have been going out of business for as long as I can remember. Because I sail with a skipper of 90 who has built several boats and sailed more, I am regaled with stories, as a boat goes past, of what happened to the builders.
The FACT is that there are plenty of capable cruising yachts around for sale at reasonable prices at the moment. Yes, marinas are expensive but those sort of yachts used to live on moorings, and there are plenty of those available round here (which wasn't the case 30 years ago). People just demand more than they used to. We bunked up in little ski apartments and little boats. Now we don't - we are all spoiled! That goes for kids too. Somebody wrote on SHs that their kids refused to stay in F1 hotels. 
Who, apart from proper racers with strong and capable crews, uses hanked on jibs these days?
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To be fair I've stayed in F1 hotels twice and they are rank. I'd almost rather sleep in the car.
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One of the changes which has made skiing more expensive for families is not being able to take kids out of school, which is what we always did. It's also pushed "quality" down because of the overcrowding and lift queues.
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When you next get on a Tui flight to a winter destination have a look at the passengers and what you will see is an aging demographic.
Our Yacht Club (more of a sailing club) has a similar problem, I am racing against the same people that I was fifteen years ago, and I thought that we were old then. We have a booming cadet section, but very few members in the middle.
I believe that Golf Clubs have similar issues.
I think it is more about sedentary behavior than anything else.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not sure on Sailing but the problem with the disappearing middle in the golf clubs is cost.
Juniors can play cheaply. You can get junior memberships that don't cost a fortune and your 15 year old kid can essentially disappear for the summer holidays by playing golf every day. Winner.
Once they become adults, have to work and pay two or three times as much (plus pay rent and the cost of being an adult) it's a much less attractive proposition.
In the grand scheme of things though, golf, sailing, skiing are all the preserve of the relatively wealthy. Most people are a pay packet or two from being in dire financial straits. They're not considering golf or sailing or skiing.
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golf, sailing, skiing are all the preserve of the relatively wealthy
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and always have been. Growing up - and at university as an undergraduate - I didn't know anybody who did any of those things.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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When I first went (school trip) my parents had to really scrimp and save to give me my first taste of skiing. Didn't go again until my mid-20's when, once again, myself and Mrs LH had to scrimp and save to pay for our first ski holiday together (studio apartment, but perfectly fine for 2 of us). Now we're skiing as a family and, whilst we're, dare I say reasonably comfortable we still generally stay in an OK apartment in Aime 2000. A chalet in Plagne Centre would easily be 4x what we pay. We *could* pay it, and skiing is absolutely the last holiday we would consider sacrificing, but by not spending a fortune on luxury (to us) accommodation, it pays for our accommodation for a week or 2 weeks in summer. Which we enjoy also!
tldr : I guess if you really, really want a ski holiday, you probably can, but if you're not sure you'll enjoy it, are you really going to take the risk that your only holiday of the year is something you won't enjoy. And even then, there's plenty that can't afford any holiday at all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you're posting that you started out privileged - skiing as a child for example - and ended up hanging out on a ski forum but unable to afford to ski...
Well I'm sorry to hear that, but you may be surprised to hear that a lot of people didn't even start out privileged. Just imagine how that might be.
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My dad, factory worker then hospital porter was big into golf - would have been early 80's I reckon.
Don't remember it being a big deal financially.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There’s significantly more choice of accommodation and travel options available and people generally have more disposable income far from the heyday being over I think we’re in the heyday main expense for my family of 4 is cost of lift passes. The limiting factor, I believe, will be the climate in years to come.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In terms of cost of skiing there are a couple of things to mention.
Starting out is often expensive because you have no gear and no idea. Buying some technical clothing, lessons, hiring and then buying kit, not knowing how/where to get a deal, etc. often means those first 2 or 3 trips cost a pretty penny. But beyond that it starts to get much more reasonable.
Secondly, there isn't just one type of person or holiday. I get in one way that people are saying there is more given over to the luxury end but I think there is plenty of budget friendly stuff and ways of doing it. So much stuff is optional.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Randyp909 wrote: |
| I keep seeing lots of US based Instagram posters talking about European resorts, if the comparison in daily ski pass prices (in some cases $299 vs €60 per day) it would make it pretty viable to fly from say, New York to Geneva for a week and still save a bunch on a West Coast resort trip. Hopefully this brings much needed tourist spending money ro thw Alps if the traditional customers drop away. |
This isn't new.
I once met a US family in Tignes in a shared chalet, they just got cheap flights from New York to London then joined the tour operator holiday flight to Geneva. they had worked in London previously so knew the system.
For an East Coast US race academy it was cheaper to fly to Europe to train in Tignes in the autumn than to fly to Colorado and fight for space there.
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| Layne wrote: |
My dad, factory worker then hospital porter was big into golf - would have been early 80's I reckon.
Don't remember it being a big deal financially. |
This. There were always cheap as chips fees municipal 18 hole courses and less expensive private clubs. A big boom with little snobbery from at least the 1969 boost from Tony Jacklin’s success, then other Europeans. I know loads of ‘working class’ / not wealthy folk who’ve played golf throughout.
Whilst every city/major town seems to have one posh club.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I keep seeing lots of US based Instagram posters talking about European resorts, if the comparison in daily ski pass prices (in some cases $299 vs €60 per day) it would make it pretty viable to fly from say, New York to Geneva for a week and still save a bunch on a West Coast resort trip.
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It's 2 different models, depending on how many days skiing you do, n America may well be cheaper than Europe!
Nobody needs to spend $299 per day to ski in n America. I suspect the number of people paying the window rate is quite the minority. Plus there are much cheaper options available
For example this year doing 2* 1 week trips with 6 days skiing at Tignes + Val D will cost $900. For $730 you could have bought the epic local pass which would get you unlimited skiing at a bunch of resorts, unlimited skiing with some blackout days at some resorts, and then even 10 days skiing (outside blackout dates) at Vail which is I suspect the "$299 per day" resort.
If you don't want to mess around with blackout dates the full epic pass was $92 extra than 2 weeks at Tignes at gets you unlimited skiing at a bunch of resorts - including the "$299 per day" (I did tell you the vast majority are not paying close to that!). Plus loads of extra days at other resorts.
Imo vastly superior value to Tignes. Of course you may disagree if you can't do more than a few days per year.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
I keep seeing lots of US based Instagram posters talking about European resorts, if the comparison in daily ski pass prices (in some cases $299 vs €60 per day) it would make it pretty viable to fly from say, New York to Geneva for a week and still save a bunch on a West Coast resort trip.
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It's 2 different models, depending on how many days skiing you do, n America may well be cheaper than Europe!
Nobody needs to spend $299 per day to ski in n America. I suspect the number of people paying the window rate is quite the minority. Plus there are much cheaper options available
For example this year doing 2* 1 week trips with 6 days skiing at Tignes + Val D will cost $900. For $730 you could have bought the epic local pass which would get you unlimited skiing at a bunch of resorts, unlimited skiing with some blackout days at some resorts, and then even 10 days skiing (outside blackout dates) at Vail which is I suspect the "$299 per day" resort.
If you don't want to mess around with blackout dates the full epic pass was $92 extra than 2 weeks at Tignes at gets you unlimited skiing at a bunch of resorts - including the "$299 per day" (I did tell you the vast majority are not paying close to that!). Plus loads of extra days at other resorts.
Imo vastly superior value to Tignes. Of course you may disagree if you can't do more than a few days per year. |
Thanks for clarifying (I think it's clear!). Sounds like different pricing models, and single day prices are not the best comparison.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Of course you may disagree if you can't do more than a few days per year. |
For me and for many it’s this. Many Europeans think of a ski trip as a once a year thing. I hear that many in North America think of it as a series of weekends. When I returned to Canada after some years away the packages of lessons had disappeared “we aren’t aiming at that market now”. The passes for free skiing at different resorts are no use to me when it costs so much to get there. But apparently they are attractive to enough others for the business to survive/ thrive.
Not sure anyone has yet mentioned the increasing concept of ski business as an investment thus max revenue min outlay rather than as a quality product, people buying resorts and pricing within them accordingly. Only food on the mountain pizza and burgers, yuk.
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Many Europeans think of a ski trip as a once a year thing. I hear that many in North America think of it as a series of weekends.
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Yes, most n Americans will talk about "days per season", most Brits will do week long trips. Some of that is also measly holiday allowance in USA.
I suspect that the vast majority of skiers in USA live within driving distance of a ski resort. (Also helped by the fact they are willing to drive a lot further than most Brits would consider reasonable!). Many buying epic/iKON passes either live in Colorado/Utah so are using them regularly or have a smaller local resort on the pass to use regularly and and are then doing a trip "out west" to ski a "destination resort/s"
So the pass (and model in general) is a good deal for most skiers. It's not a good model for those living far away from resorts who want to just do a week per year. Although, it's no different to most gyms where buying the odd session here and there works out way more expensive than a yearly membership.
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Only food on the mountain pizza and burgers, yuk.
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A bit snobby, there is nothing wrong with a good pizza or burger!
There are actually some excellent on mountain restaurants in n America now.
A bit of a generalisation but ime there is generally a different attitude to skiing in n America, with it being seen as more of a sport/hobby compared to more of a "holiday" like in Europe. The number for which a sit down meal is a required part of the experience is quite low - many just want to minimise lost ski time with something quick. So fast food suits.
Perhaps comparable to UK snowdome, where focus is just on the skiing. A quick Google suggests the Tamworth snowdome restaurant specialises in... You guessed it pizza and burgers!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Eugh, the youth of today!
Not so much snobby as food conscious, pasta is a classic sport food and it was removed from Lake Louise the last couple of times.
I have a suspicion the British reluctance to drive is partly the mental block of the Channel, perhaps we’d be more open to drive without that added hour or few. Driving doesn’t stop the Belgians and Dutch.
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Why would you be looking for pasta at lake Louise when you could be dining on oysters and bison tatar at fairmont? For someone "food conscious" your tastes seem to be closer to burger and pizza than fine dining 
I love pasta, but sitting around in a warm place eating a big bowl of pasta would almost certainly result in a sluggish afternoon. Sport "food" is now carb drinks and gels.
I can certainly understand the appeal of a nice lunch, and how it is part of the holiday experience to many. I'm just more in the other crowd that wants to maximise time on snow and happy to just eat croissant/chocolate/sandwich on the lifts rather than a long stop. My thinking is I can get nice food in the evenings, and plenty of good restaurants in UK too. Time on snow a little harder to come by!
I'm pretty sure there is a general correlation between country size and acceptable driving times. In UK we rarely have to drive long distances to the point where 2 hours is considerable. My Canadian friends will drive 4 hours each way for an event without really thinking twice.
The Dutch and Belgians seem to go against this somewhat though.
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FAQ
