 Poster: A snowHead
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I always thought L3V was the largest ski area in the world but recently seen some stats claiming that Ski Amade and Dolomiti Superski have more km of piste.
Is this correct? Are they truly one interconnected ski area like L3V or have definitions been applied loosely to make these claims?
How would a week in each compare?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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3V 518km of runs
Ski Amade and Dolomiti Superski just seem to be a group of unlinked ski resorts on the same pass but I have never skied either.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@davidof, I think most of the superski area is the sella ronda, which consists of a number of linked resorts. Alleghe, San pelligrino and I'm guessing other smaller areas are also included
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@davidof, Yes, the Dolomiti Superski has a number of unlinked separate areas as well as the Sella Ronda. I’ve skied in Amade using the Salzburg Superski pass and although there are some linked resorts, most aren’t linked but there’s lots of them. Great if you’ve got a car with new resorts everyday if you want. I’ve skied new resorts every time I’ve been.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The area truly lift-linked by the Sella Ronda is truly enormous, definitely on a mega resort scale. I think it is a bit smaller in terms of piste kms than the 3Vs, but then there are other off shoot that are ski resorts in there own right. I think somewhere around 500kms. The Hidden Valley/5 Torri area isn't quite linked as in 1 direction you get a minibus (continuous service) and in the other a horse pulls you back to a button tow to link back into the bigger area. It's not much more hassle than queueing for a gondola but it isn't quite the same. That area links with a gondola to 1/2 of Cortina's ski area, then there's a gap across the town. Way down Val gardena there's another short walk across Ortesei to access Alpe di Suisi area (then a 4w bus can take you back to a Sella Ronda connection at the far end). There's a short bus ride some way down Val di Fassa to connect an off shoot. Even without all these, the area is still enormous though. With all these bits and the bits further away totted up, it's double the 3Vs apparently. Ski Amade is loads of medium and small areas, many a 5-10min drive apart. The biggest areas (eg Flachau, Schladming) are decnetly big in their own right.
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In these terms it is arguable Cortina isn't a linked resort (you have to get across the town to link them). And obviously Chamonix you have to take a bus between the areas.
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Maybe another thing to consider: how are the gondola-based connections actually made?
I only recently started to go back to the 3V, and what I find so smart there is that the areas are connected by the summits. It means you're not even "realising" that you are going from one area to the other. You just hop in a gondola to go up, and boom, you're in a different resort. It feels more like one giant resort, rather than multiple, connected ones. In practice, that means you *actually* ski everywhere.
Contrast this with other places where, for instance, you first need to take a gondola to go down low into a valley, then up on another gondola to get to ski level, and then again, up one more etc. Or places where you have a long traverse. It's just not as practical and - at least in my case - I realised in hindsight we were staying local instead of exploring.
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I'm not sure if this helps but as there is a free shuttle bus from the bottom of the funicular from Arc1600 to the bottom of the La Rosiere ski area does this count as a massive linked ski area going from Champagny to La Thuile. Or as it's possible to ski off piste from Tignes to Champagny or even to Val Thoren with a bit of skinning does that make it linked. It may even be possible to get a bus from Champagny to Brides les Bains. Does this now make a ski area all the way from La Thuile to Orelle in the Maurienne Valley.
Does it matter?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The 3V is indeed large, and feels like a single mega-resort. I've done all four corners of the 3V piste map in a day.
Sella Ronda is gargantuan, but seems rather samey.
For variety and geographic sprawl, I don't think you can beat Les Portes du Soleil.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Ryunis wrote: |
I always thought L3V was the largest ski area in the world but recently seen some stats claiming that Ski Amade and Dolomiti Superski have more km of piste.
Is this correct? Are they truly one interconnected ski area like L3V or have definitions been applied loosely to make these claims? |
I think it's clearly the latter.
| Ryunis wrote: |
| How would a week in each compare? |
Well, assuming my statement above is the correct, the difference is in the convenience. But there is something else...
As most people who know me know, I ski mostly in the French mega resorts. However, I did spend a bit of time in Chamonix and the Arlberg and so have had the bus it around experience. I've also done a bit of drive to the live base.
There are a number of people that 'hate' France or 'hate' the mega resorts. And I get it why they do to some extinct. But it really depends what your ski holiday is about. And there is so much variance on that front. I don't give a monkeys about ambience/authenticity or mountain restaurants as I have no need for either. But for others it's a major factor.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
| And I get it why they do to some extinct. |
Are you implying that we’re all Dinosaurs? 
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Think the test should be what you can ski without getting a bus or taxi. A short walk between a piste and a lift should be acceptable.
Would be interesting to see what the kms for Dolomites are under that criteria. Colfosco, Corvara, Selva Val Gardena, Val di Fassa, Arraba, Suisi, that one with the church. And if you started in the Tofana side of Cortina you can do that area and Cinque Torre, Falzarego, Lagauzuoi and then the horses into the above resorts.
It is all a bit samey alright - stunning views everywhere  . Wipes the floor with the scenery in 3vs or PDS imo, but I think for pure crack cocaine repeated fast hit piste skiing 3Vs pips it.
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You know it makes sense.
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@8611, Add in the Ciampac/Buffare area of Val di Fassa (with the advent of the Col di Rossi gondola) 
Oh, forgot the Seceda area
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| 8611 wrote: |
| Think the test should be what you can ski without getting a bus or taxi. A short walk between a piste and a lift should be acceptable. |
That seems a reasonable criterion, except that there are still questions. How do you count the Hidden Valley where you don't need road transport to get out (horses) but do to get in? And what about situations like Via Lattea where to get from San Sicario to Claviere you need to take a lift down to the bottom of the valley, cross the road and then get on a lift up the other side?
It would be interesting to see the ski areas tabulated that way though. It would need some work, not surprisingly resorts advertise what is available on their lift pass, not whether it is all connected in that way. It would include all of 3V, but only the Super Morzine side of PdS. (And there is then the question of how piste length should be calculated, another problematic area ...)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's a bit of an angels on a pinhead question.
There are several seriously large areas with different lift pass configurations, different lift accessibility in how they join together but most importantly for most people quite a big difference in scenery, ambience and snow reliability
For practical purposes for holiday going skiers there are several areas with a single pass that you can't ski the majority of the runs in a week, but will give you a great holiday if that particular ambience suits you.
Arguing which criteria matter in the biggest comes down to pedantic theological points.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Arguing which criteria matter in the biggest comes down to pedantic theological points. |
Linkage criteria.
Number of pistes.
Total length of pistes.
Total area of pistes.
Total 'in bounds' area.
Geographic area enclosed (rubber band area).
Total uplift capacity/rate.
Total ski pass days sold per annum.
I'm reminded of US ski areas where in order to boast total piste length they have a mountain face covered in dozens of parallel pistes (separated by a few trees).
To get a perspective on linkage, I'm reminded of Zermatt (over a couple of decades ago) where the morning commute from town chalet to top of mountain took 3 hours, involving a walk, a bus, an elevator, and 3 cable cars.
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@Crosbie, yes because the whole point of the question is of resort size without taking a bus. The "petit train" has to count as a bus.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Crosbie, Yes. I get the impression the walk across Morzine between Pleney and Supermorzine is longer than the walk across Ortisei between the end of La Longia and Siusi and is the reason the smaller part is dropped from the overall size. It’s a long time since I did it. Still remember that there was no navette across Morzine at lunchtime. There’s no navette in Ortisei. I think there’s an underground travelator that takes you part of the way. MLG do market their own area eg https://www.calameo.com/read/0072505108e35324ba328?page=1
Alpe di Suisi seems to add 63kms onto the SRs 433kms so nearly 500kms. You can ski down to the town from both sides, unlike in the PDS.
Not sure if it will be so easy to calculate the additional sections in Val di Fassa and 5 Torri/Cortina, although I guess the Cortina link is another short walk (?) through town so maybe we should include it’s whole area (120kms). That overtakes the 3Vs. Ciampac/Buffare is completely linked (well there’s no run from Belvedere to Alba, you have to take the gondola down) but the area is marketed with the Val di Fassa part of the Sella Ronda and a few pistes on the other side of Pozza as 55kms so it’s guess but maybe adds another 20kms. So allowing for short walks and a 1 directional horse 635kms ish!
You can also get short bus rides from 5 Torri to Civetta area (part of the Great War Tour) and to Kronplatz from Alta Badia. Also from Marmolada to Alleghe on the other side of Civetta and Alpe di Suisi to Santa Christina, which is part of the Gardena Ronda should you get extreme circuititis). Anyone worked out the main PDS sector plus ‘easy’ add-ons?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 14-11-24 14:57; edited 1 time in total
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| j b wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
| Think the test should be what you can ski without getting a bus or taxi. A short walk between a piste and a lift should be acceptable. |
That seems a reasonable criterion, except that there are still questions. How do you count the Hidden Valley where you don't need road transport to get out (horses) but do to get in? And what about situations like Via Lattea where to get from San Sicario to Claviere you need to take a lift down to the bottom of the valley, cross the road and then get on a lift up the other side?
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I'd definitely include the horsies, even just for the novelty, but they're basically just a rope tow
And lift to lift I think is fine too
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| Crosbie wrote: |
I'm reminded of US ski areas where in order to boast total piste length they have a mountain face covered in dozens of parallel pistes (separated by a few trees).
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I think some German lad looked at the European resorts on this basis and cut them down to actual piste lengths, cutting out variations on what was really the same piste. Think the 3vs was still the biggest but at around 400km not the advertised 600
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| what...snow wrote: |
You can also get short bus rides from 5 Torri to Civetta area (part of the Great War Tour) and to Kronplatz from Alta Badia. Also from Marmolada to Alleghe on the other side of Civetta and Alpe di Suisi to Santa Christina, which is part of the Gardena Ronda should you get extreme circuititis). Anyone worked out the main PDS sector plus ‘easy’ add-ons? |
Those first two bus rides definitely breaking the rule, 20 minutes or so from recollection
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think there are about 476 kms of linked skiing in the Sella Ronda and some 1200kms overall across the Superski lift pass area, including links by bus and train.
It connects many different passes and valleys but the big selling point is the reliability and beauty of the ski runs. It is 90-plus percent snow making so is not reliant on natural snowfall. Together with a predisposition for good weather it often means it has more linked pistes open than most places in the Alps. The downside is the lack of reliable off piste skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Avoriaz connects to Nyon skis on, no walking, no buses, no petit-train 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| shep wrote: |
| Avoriaz connects to Nyon skis on, no walking, no buses, no petit-train |
I've obviously missed that when I've skied there. How is it done? Isn't the Avoriaz bowl a valley across from the one with the Nyon gondola ... or is there an off-piste route over the ridge? Certainly don't remember a piste.
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You know it makes sense.
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@what...snow, 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So, the Transarc gondola links Les Arcs and La Plagne, even though the transit time is longer than Le Petit Train (dedicated shuttle) between Morzine and SuperMorzine?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Crosbie wrote: |
| So, the Transarc gondola links Les Arcs and La Plagne, even though the transit time is longer than Le Petit Train (dedicated shuttle) between Morzine and SuperMorzine? |
No, the Transarc goes from Arc 1800 to Col de la Chal above Arc 1950/2000, it’s an uplift of nearly 800m. New gondola time will supposedly be 13 minutes in total.
Vanoise Express links Les Arcs and La Plagne and takes 4 minutes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ah yes, The Vanoise Express. That's what I meant. Mea culpa.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Looks like it 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnE wrote: |
I'm not sure if this helps but as there is a free shuttle bus from the bottom of the funicular from Arc1600 to the bottom of the La Rosiere ski area does this count as a massive linked ski area going from Champagny to La Thuile. Or as it's possible to ski off piste from Tignes to Champagny or even to Val Thoren with a bit of skinning does that make it linked. It may even be possible to get a bus from Champagny to Brides les Bains. Does this now make a ski area all the way from La Thuile to Orelle in the Maurienne Valley.
Does it matter? |
Yes, size matters
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Layne wrote: |
| Ryunis wrote: |
I always thought L3V was the largest ski area in the world but recently seen some stats claiming that Ski Amade and Dolomiti Superski have more km of piste.
Is this correct? Are they truly one interconnected ski area like L3V or have definitions been applied loosely to make these claims? |
I think it's clearly the latter.
| Ryunis wrote: |
| How would a week in each compare? |
Well, assuming my statement above is the correct, the difference is in the convenience. But there is something else...
As most people who know me know, I ski mostly in the French mega resorts. However, I did spend a bit of time in Chamonix and the Arlberg and so have had the bus it around experience. I've also done a bit of drive to the live base.
There are a number of people that 'hate' France or 'hate' the mega resorts. And I get it why they do to some extinct. But it really depends what your ski holiday is about. And there is so much variance on that front. I don't give a monkeys about ambience/authenticity or mountain restaurants as I have no need for either. But for others it's a major factor. |
I'm similar. I like to explore varying terrain. High alpine peaks down to treelined runs. I just love getting around and the scenery is a big part of it for me. It's one of the reasons I love L3Vs, because it isn't just broad, it's deep, with high peaks and low troughs, spread across 3(+) individual, but seemlessly linked, resorts.
I also love my off-piste and because it is both very good and I know it well, 1650 is my favourite ski area.
I disagree with the France haters, the French resorts are charming! Yes there are some ugly areas in some villages, but look around and you will find plenty of traditional Savoie.
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| Crosbie wrote: |
| Do you mean that because Morzine to Super-Morzine requires a 'petit train' ride (or 500m 7minute walk) that this means Les Gets/Morzine is not linked to the PdS? |
The website linked by @what...snow specifically addresses that question and says that it isn't linked. Interestingly it sets an admittedly arbitrary walking limit of 500m, so I assume the author measured it as more than that from the Super-Morzine base to the Pleney base (which to be fair is also my subjective impression).
The chap also does tabulate what he reckons to be the actual lengths of connected skiable areas - he uses the midline of each piste rather than accept each resort's more creative measurements - and agrees that 3V is the biggest area with 553 km (resort publicity says 600 km) while PdS is just 293 km for the main section. Sella Ronda he says is 353 km (omitting bits like Seiser Alm), coming in third biggest after Paradiski (408 km).
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| j b wrote: |
| (which to be fair is also my subjective impression) |
Well, if we can admit that sort of thing into the debate, then I'll say, to the claim that the PdS is the world's largest connected ski area*: "to be fair, this is also my subjective impression".
QED
* "although Portes du Soleil is marketed as the largest ski area in the world with 650 kilometres of slopes, it actually consists of two large connected and three smaller ski areas."
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@Crosbie, I agree that subjectively PdS feels like a huge area to ski, particularly if you are based in Morzine so just head one way or another for the day. But any comparison obviously needs a set of rules that can be applied fairly to each place.
My subjective impression was referring to the distance between Super Morzine and Pleney which - hardly surprisingly - I haven't measured for myself. It just seemed a bit of a trek when I have walked around the town, and that wasn't in ski boots.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| j b wrote: |
| My subjective impression was referring to the distance between Super Morzine and Pleney which - hardly surprisingly - I haven't measured for myself. |
Here's the walking route on Google maps: https://maps.app.goo.gl/KR9FSVTpcwKKEkSK9
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| Crosbie wrote: |
| j b wrote: |
| My subjective impression was referring to the distance between Super Morzine and Pleney which - hardly surprisingly - I haven't measured for myself. |
Here's the walking route on Google maps: https://maps.app.goo.gl/KR9FSVTpcwKKEkSK9 |
I'm pretty sure that if you cut diagonally across the open area by the tourist office it would come in under 500m, so maybe it is linked. It certainly doesn't take long to walk it.
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