 Poster: A snowHead
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Yes. But also we all need to educate ourselves about the mathematics of risk. If 100 people undertake an activity correctly rated to carry only a 1% chance of being fatally dangerous, one of them will die.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That's called "being unlucky".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Think I’m with @BobinCH on this.
If you tell a person they can’t/shouldn’t do something, their first reaction will be to ask why. And if you don’t give a good reason they will understandably be skeptical.
Resorts close runs for a bunch of reasons, including good ones like avalanche danger or extreme ice; but also some where they may obliged to by law (this may be specific to Tirol and/or Austria) even if it makes little sense, like they haven’t had time to groom it yet since 30cm fresh fell over night, or the last 10m is grass even though the rest is in great condition. Or they just didn’t have the manpower early season to open yet etc etc (remember a not-yet-opened piste has a different legal status than the offpiste next to it even if conditions/risk are identical, even if that means great and safe conditions).
If there’s a specific threat to life I think that’s probably worth posting and would probably be a greater deterrent than just fencing something off without any info as to why.
And I don’t think it would invalidate the concept of personal responsibility or have any other implication in cases of people choosing to ski closed runs at their own decision/risk/uninsured.
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Skied PdS a lot and always thought I would have a crack on it in good conditions. Never has been with one time peering over when the snow was suitable into thick mist and just though as above (it's be slow and not enjoyable after the first 5 min of moguls for the risk).
Son No 1. did take me down Combe du Machon which was plenty mogulled, steep and not overly enjoyable for me. Skiingand trying to improve my piste technique on the smoother red-blacks at a decent speed is why I go skiing. Not to risk an injury on something I don't find enjoyable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
If you tell a person they can’t/shouldn’t do something, their first reaction will be to ask why
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That's absolutely right. But if you are prohibited by those in charge of an enterprise in which you have voluntarily opted to participate, I think a reasonable response is "because I say so". If someone forbids swearing, smoking, or wearing outdoor shoes in their house, or if a hotel tells me not to cook in my bedroom, or the local highways authority puts a 20 mph speed limit on my road, I should do as I'm told. If somebody tells me I shouldn't go sailing without a life jacket, I might ask why, or I might just decide to ignore them. Decisions to close runs can be taken on the fly, last minute, just after the first "run down" of the day by the pisteurs (I've taken part in one of those, and very fascinating it was). It's daft to suggest they should have a conference each time and decide, after considering legal advice, on the precise wording (in how many languages?) of the warning to be posted at the top of a closed piste.
Sometimes it will be a very last minute decision (for example, in spring, because less-than-brilliant piste bashing has left some nasty ridges on a blue run). Time to stick up a couple of "closed" notices but not to erect a fence.
It would be interesting to get an experienced pisteur's comments here. Where are you, Idris?
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There are already warning signs such as "faible enneigement" or "for expert skiers only" for runs where might encounter problems. I have rarely skied "for experts only" runs, not because of any fear that I wouldn't be able to "get down" somehow, but because of how much of a dick I'd feel if I fell down.
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One other aspect to people feeling that they can ignore signs and fences is that they do it for pistes that are closed for racing and training as well.
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Ignoring these things is never at your own risk. If it goes wrong, someone has to come and get you, regardless of whether it was closed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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and you'll have to pay for that person to come get you - because you sure as hell won't be insured.
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@NoMapNoCompass, not 100% sure that's 100% true ... Chamonix, for instance, doesn't charge for off piste rescue. And a "closed" piste could easily be regarded as off piste.
(YMMV) 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you are explicitly going against advice - e.g. a closed piste, as opposed to say - attempting a route beyond your skill level, then the provider will attempt to recover costs.
Closed Piste != Off piste
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Some "Runs" are nearly always closed early season, when there's insufficient snow, in the places I ride in BC at least.
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I can't say I remember seeing runs "closed" too often due to anything other than avalanche danger. Where runs weren't in condition it was more strong suggestions not to ski/ski at your own risk, rather than a full closure. Definitely never treated the same as a permanent closure or ducking an avalanche closure rope - although skiing down a run in those conditions probably punishment enough
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If there’s a specific threat to life I think that’s probably worth posting and would probably be a greater deterrent than just fencing something off without any info as to why.
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I'm not so sure. The following examples are not unusual for many resorts in n america:
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/AMBPBT/warning-signs-at-backcountry-access-gate-where-ski-trail-leaves-the-AMBPBT.jpg
https://cdn-cdpkc.nitrocdn.com/yXXuJycSocBMYErfGjhonERxAoaTPwTO/assets/images/optimized/rev-ac5eebb/www.avalanche-center.org/Incidents/2011-12/photos/20120223-utah-photo2.jpg
Neither could be more clear about the risk of death, yet plenty still ignore them heading out without gear.
People overestimate their abilities and think "it will happen to someone else". I suspect the fact someone died only adds to the infamy and draw for some.
Generally I would say it doesn't bother me people should be free to take risks no matter how stupid. But when they get hurt other people get dragged into it.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Origen, not in France. In Chamonix valley. Local rules.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm sure it's been said by people who know more than me on here in the past that much like the UK emergency helicopter rescue from a random mountain is free, as it falls under the state - but rescue from a ski resort falls under the ski resort, who contract out helicopter rescue to private operators who do charge.
So if you're skiing off piste inside some ill defined 'ski resort area' it's a big bill, but go far enough away from that ill defined area and it's free. At a guess what falls inside/outside the 'ski resort area' in France will vary from area to area, resort to resort, even village to village and be down to different agreements and contract everywhere from individual land owners up to the leadership of the department.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As with concluded some skiiers will be happy to go around and over netting based on their risk profile / assessment and many of us on here have done it - in my part mostly to go down home runs with limited snow to avoid downloading, and mess up my skis at worst. Signs pointing out the reason for closure is common in FR PDS - normally exposed rocks, mixed in gravel, ice or simply "Piste Dangereuse". The most effective closure is the old yellow rope accompanied with "Falaise" signs which are seldom tested but sadly not ended well in the past in PDS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mjit wrote: |
I'm sure it's been said by people who know more than me on here in the past that much like the UK emergency helicopter rescue from a random mountain is free, as it falls under the state - but rescue from a ski resort falls under the ski resort, who contract out helicopter rescue to private operators who do charge.
So if you're skiing off piste inside some ill defined 'ski resort area' it's a big bill, but go far enough away from that ill defined area and it's free. At a guess what falls inside/outside the 'ski resort area' in France will vary from area to area, resort to resort, even village to village and be down to different agreements and contract everywhere from individual land owners up to the leadership of the department. |
I'm not so sure it is quite as cut and dried as that in Austria, if you are deemed negligent you could well get a bill.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And if it were at all cut and dried you'd need to have some indication when you were leaving the resort area, surely?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think a big part of the confusion on this is how different a meaning of "closed" is depending on where you are. I live in Banff. Here, they always try their bests to get runs open as safely as possible. So if a run is closed, there is a darn good reason for it! My first time in France, we were shocked as we continually watched people duck a closed rope to ski great looking snow, while we felt like we were stuck to the groomers. About mid day, we finally asked a patroller about why so many people were going past a closed sign. They looked at us a bit confused and said "because we didn't groom it today, and it's marked as a trail on the map, so when it's not groomed, we have to mark it as closed". So we said, " then we can ski it?". They said "bien sûr!". So the rest of the trip, we would regularly ski "closed" runs, after checking with patrol that it was actually ok. Almost every time they seemed very perplexed why these people speaking French to them and wearing fat skis with touring bindings and avy gear would even be asking such a silly question! So totally different take on the same thing depending on where you are.
Ultimately, doesn't it come down to people taking responsibility for their own actions and accepting the consequences? Skiing is an inherently dangerous sport in a lot of ways. So it's up to the individual to select terrain that is suitable to their skills and knowledge.
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| Origen wrote: |
| And if it were at all cut and dried you'd need to have some indication when you were leaving the resort area, surely? |
In most of Europe there is no such thing as a resort area, you are either skiing something on the official map or you are off piste. How different insurers handle this is is the source of much confusion on here. Best bet is to ask rather than set up a GoFund me page when you bet a hefty bill.
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| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
If you tell a person they can’t/shouldn’t do something, their first reaction will be to ask why
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That's absolutely right. But if you are prohibited by those in charge of an enterprise in which you have voluntarily opted to participate, I think a reasonable response is "because I say so". If someone forbids swearing, smoking, or wearing outdoor shoes in their house, or if a hotel tells me not to cook in my bedroom, or the local highways authority puts a 20 mph speed limit on my road, I should do as I'm told. |
It's a perfectly reasonable response, but the question is if it's an effective response. If they don't care about the effectiveness that's also fine too - personal responsibility and so.
| Origen wrote: |
It's daft to suggest they should have a conference each time and decide, after considering legal advice, on the precise wording (in how many languages?) of the warning to be posted at the top of a closed piste.
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It would be daft, which is probably why no-one has suggested that.
It's never going to happen for a variety of reasons (and to be clear I really don't feel very strongly either way), but it wouldn't be particularly difficult for a resort to have a few signs in the local language + English (all you'd need) with for example: closed - avalanche danger - risk to life; closed - pure ice - risk to life; closed - incomplete snow cover; etc etc. The wording could be standardised beforehand like the avalanche reports (they don't write them freehand; they select pre-written phrases and the corresponding translations).
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 13-09-24 21:27; edited 2 times in total
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@TOLOCOMAN, that's by no means a general rule in France. In most ski areas, even rather "tame" ones, like the one I'm most familiar with, they don't groom all the runs every day. That doesn't mean they're closed, though sometimes, when it's a piste which IS usually bashed, there'll be a sign saying "piste non damée" as a warning. It would not be wise to assume that a "closed" sign normally means just that's the run has not been groomed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What number were the DIN settings on his bindings?
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As I said, we always talked to a patroller before we entered anywhere marked closed. So far, we've always got the same answer.
But also why I prefer to just ski the "true off-piste" where there are no signs, and everything is just left up to one's own judgement.
I think this thread can really be summed up in one idea. Know your own limitations, and be prepared to deal with the consequences if you misjudged.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| What number were the DIN settings on his bindings? |
If you know the Swiss Wall and had seen people fall on it you'd know that is an irrelevance. Generally if you're rag dolling at 50mph down a steep ice mogal field skis on or skis off doesn't make much difference to the multiple brakes to arms/legs/back/neck and major head trauma (regardless of headware).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fifty years ago Icy slopes were a common hazard in UK winter mountains. The climate was then much cooler and the snow would often freeze into ‘boiler plate’ on the Scottish slopes. There were sometimes fatalities from long falls in places like the West Wall at Corrie na Ciste, Cairngorm.
With temperatures now much higher it seems less common to get days of rock hard snow here and the absence of reliable winter climbing is perhaps evidence of that.
An increase in saturated pistes and higher freezing levels however seem much more common in the western Alps these days below 2000m. So boiler plate ‘ice’ may now be a bigger hazard in Alpine skiing than it was.
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| Mjit wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
| What number were the DIN settings on his bindings? |
If you know the Swiss Wall and had seen people fall on it you'd know that is an irrelevance. Generally if you're rag dolling at 50mph down a steep ice mogal field skis on or skis off doesn't make much difference to the multiple brakes to arms/legs/back/neck and major head trauma (regardless of headware). |
I think his question is more to do with whether his bindings pre-released and caused the fall (though there seems to be no indication of that).
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You know it makes sense.
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I think it's more like he's just being his usual spuddlig self to get a reaction
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mark's page sums up the situation quite well but as it is France it is never entirely black and white. If private actors are involved (helicopter, piste patrol for avalanche dogs etc.) you risk getting a bill. If you call the piste patrol and they call in a PGHM or Sécurité civile (red/yellow) helicopter the piste patrol may bill you like it is a private rescue, probably because their accounting systems only say helicopter rescue. I've heard of people being charged several thousand euros for heli rescue on the Vallée Blanche. Why? because it is lift accessible. If the Italians rescue you on Mont Blanc or elsewhere in the border areas you can get a bill.
At the same time we have guides in Chamonix calling in the PGHM to airlift guests because they are too tired for the walk out after skiing le Mont Blanc as was mentioned on snowheads a few years back, bill picked up by the French tax payer. Better safe than sorry I suppose.
As Mark say's "The ski area (domaine skiable) is said to cover the area that can be reached by gravity from a ski lift." and in general that is extended up to the ridge line above the lift - so an entire bowl. In Val d'Isere it would include the Manchet valley where people get rescued from each year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In St Anton many years ago many of the black pistes were re-graded as itineraries. I was told by a guide that this was because people were getting more litigious and they regularly had to close runs which had features that might be seen in the light of a court case as dangerous, such as exposed rocks or difficult snow till such time as they could do work on them or groom them. The solution was to call them itineraries and keep them open more of the time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowball wrote: |
| In St Anton many years ago many of the black pistes were re-graded as itineraries. ... |
Yeah the Verbier stuff discussed above, plus lots of other places made that same change.
On the current Avoriaz piste map, the Chavanette run under discussion here is a "piste balisée", summarized there as "marked slopes, ungroomed but secure, located in Switzerland". If pushed to define in what way that's different from an actual piste I'd struggle personally; sounds like a double black diamond to me. My point: not really relevant, other than if it's "closed" presumably it's not necessarily patrolled or controlled, although there's a lift by the side of this one so it's probably controlled.
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| ... "The ski area (domaine skiable) is said to cover the area that can be reached by gravity from a ski lift." and in general that is extended up to the ridge line above the lift - so an entire bowl. |
My mate was lifted from just outside the 3 Valleys domain for free. In North America they use clear signage to define the ski area boundary, but likely the rationale is broadly similar.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When I broke my leg skiing off-piste below the Schindler Spitz in St Anton I was lifted off by helicopter and never received any bill for it (or if there was one it was dealt with by my insurance).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have to say if you can afford to go skiing you can probably afford, maybe not comfortably or have budgeted for but afford, a rescue helicopter should the need arise - and considering the alternatives are what, a potentially life endangering or altering ground rescue, or dying on the mountain.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@davidof, yep grey areas everywhere 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Downloaded it every time. It just doesn't look enjoyable. My boys both did it on their boards and said never again. I think it's actually classed as one of 7 orange runs in Europe.
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| snowball wrote: |
| In St Anton many years ago many of the black pistes were re-graded as itineraries. I was told by a guide that this was because people were getting more litigious and they regularly had to close runs which had features that might be seen in the light of a court case as dangerous, such as exposed rocks or difficult snow till such time as they could do work on them or groom them. The solution was to call them itineraries and keep them open more of the time. |
But even itineraries can be closed/opened.
St Moritz.
Had no idea, nor inclination to find out, the criteria of open vs close. Just noticed it’s closed for some days and open on others.
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| Mjit wrote: |
| I have to say if you can afford to go skiing you can probably afford, maybe not comfortably or have budgeted for but afford, a rescue helicopter should the need arise - and considering the alternatives are what, a potentially life endangering or altering ground rescue, or dying on the mountain. |
Perhaps if you're a heli-transfering, british, millionaire? Not so much if you're just out for your weekly free-ski day with your primary school class ...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Very sad. We live in a world where we're not used to not thinking for ourselves. When the light says go we go, when stop we stop etc. If there is no sign or the sign doesn't say what we want we have to do our own assessment. In hindsight this looks like one most people could have made (e.g. likelihood of falling 60%, consequences of falling 90%) so the problem is less making a bad assessment than not thinking to make one at all. Mountain types learn this in one form or another but for most of us our lives are not lived that way.
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I basically disagree that we don't think for ourselves but maybe that's because I've had a lifetime of being personally responsible for my kit and my routefinding from mountain hiking to skiing. If I decide that light and lucky is the way then I bear the consequences of not having a waterproof in a non-forecast thunderstorm etc. Plus international backpacking travel from the age of 18 teaches you pretty quickly that your decisions are your own.
I can't really believe any adult of normal intellect* out skiing doesn't understand that falls can hurt and in some circumstances you have a long slide/bounce. I know I once had a long slide on hard snow and while I was easily able to stay centre of the chute I did start researching whippets in the aftermath.
* Maybe there's a question of the young rubberized park rats that they simply haven't gone in hard enough yet or are still in a "chicks dig scars" phase of life.
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