 Poster: A snowHead
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So do you think he made a bad assessment or just didn't really make one? We'll never know of course, but what's your hunch?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Ed_sec wrote: |
| So do you think he made a bad assessment or just didn't really make one? We'll never know of course, but what's your hunch? |
He’d probably skied it before and didn’t realize how bad it was. You don’t come across bulletproof proof ice on steep slopes very frequently. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have attempted the slope if he’d known it was sheet ice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If the fence was clearly completely across the top, as has been reported, then it was obviously a bad decision. The hand holding was done for him and it was ignored.
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I would guess that he got to the slope saw it was closed, thought so what I'm a black run skier and it's not avy risk and there's snow on it so I'll be fine. Perhaps even a bit of macho I'll be able to brag about this.
Overestimating his ability and underconsidering the specific risks rather than not thinking at all. Though admittedly I've observed some people do seem to engage holiday mode in their brains and lose all sense of prudence, personal awareness, and self sufficiency etc. They simply cannot be that dumb in their daily life.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ed_sec wrote: |
| Very sad. We live in a world where we're not used to not thinking for ourselves. When the light says go we go, when stop we stop etc. If there is no sign or the sign doesn't say what we want we have to do our own assessment. In hindsight this looks like one most people could have made (e.g. likelihood of falling 60%, consequences of falling 90%) so the problem is less making a bad assessment than not thinking to make one at all. Mountain types learn this in one form or another but for most of us our lives are not lived that way. |
Wrong analogy?
“Not thinking” in this case would have been not going down a piste that’s closed (with a netting across the entrance notwithstanding)
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Ed_sec wrote: |
| So do you think he made a bad assessment or just didn't really make one? We'll never know of course, but what's your hunch? |
He’d probably skied it before and didn’t realize how bad it was. You don’t come across bulletproof proof ice on steep slopes very frequently. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have attempted the slope if he’d known it was sheet ice. |
If the Alps is even remotely like the northeast of US (which it is), sheet ice isn’t infrequent either. Even in my relatively limited travel to the Alps, I’ve encounter hard ice off the side of the piste.
Given enough time, piste basher would have tamed all the icy bits on any piste back into corduroy. That’s the part 1-week-a-year punters don’t realize, why a piste is sometimes closed and other times open. Same with avalanche control.
All outdoor activities are affected by weather. Go out for a long walk without umbrella and rain in the forecast, you may get wet and be miserable. You may even get hypothermia if you walk far enough away from shelter!
Skiing has always been in that mirky land between safe and boring (e.g. beach holiday), vs exciting with risk (e.g. icy climbing). Ski areas operators offer a service to make that outing enjoyable by providing lifts, piste basher and some signage to help one NOT having to make risky decisions while enjoying their holidays. Unfortunately, that lores some people into forgetting they’re in a natural environment that has inherent risks. Still, follow the advise/signage of the operator and stay off closed runs, the environment is controlled enough to be quite safe. It’s only when people go against those signage that they’re exposed to all the risk of the natural environment.
Going into a closed piste, it’s off piste. It’s no different than skiing outside of ski area. One can’t say I’ve walked this mountain path in the summer, I’m now going to walk that same path in the middle of winter! Or, I swam across this pond in my summer holiday so I’m going to swim across it again in February! (Both may still be great fun, but only for those with proper preparation and understanding of what they’re taking on)
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@abc, that slope’s never bashed - hence the massive bumps at the top where it’s pretty narrow.
It’s unfortunately a “big tick” that sees people get on it when either the conditions and/or their ability would suggest doing something else.
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
@abc, that slope’s never bashed - hence the massive bumps at the top where it’s pretty narrow.
It’s unfortunately a “big tick” that sees people get on it when either the conditions and/or their ability would suggest doing something else. |
Never?
Or just not regularly? (Or not often?)
In the US, most black pistes are not bashed. Bumps form and grow big. People like it that way. However, sometimes the bumps got knocked down after a big “ice event” to foster formation of new bumps without the underlying ice.
In any case, I never understand the “I skied x or y” (read: “I survived x or y”). What does that prove?
Never mind that skiing is a leisure activity, not a competition.
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@abc, no, it’s never bashed.
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@abc, never, I believe the top is too steep to get a basher on
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
In any case, I never understand the “I skied x or y” (read: “I survived x or y”). What does that prove?
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I had a T made saying I survived... when I did it.
It proved I shouldn't have; and that I was lucky to catch a really nice day. I won't be 'challenging' myself that way again. The T shirt shrunk. Coincidentaly, I put on 3 kg too. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@abc, never means never, it's "proper steep", can't even winch a cat into it
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| Charliegolf wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
In any case, I never understand the “I skied x or y” (read: “I survived x or y”). What does that prove?
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I had a T made saying I survived... when I did it.
It proved I shouldn't have; and that I was lucky to catch a really nice day. I won't be 'challenging' myself that way again. The T shirt shrunk. Coincidentaly, I put on 3 kg too. |
Many of such runs exist for the days when conditions are good. Corbet in Jackson Hole is one such, which also attracts all sort of “survivor hopefuls”. But I’ve been told, by a long time instructor, that I should look to ski it if I happened upon a “really nice day” as it’s actually a very enjoyable run in the right condition. (I’ve not had the right opportunity yet).
So it isn’t about surviving a “famous” run. It’s about enjoying it. And the latter takes patience, and understanding what’s it’s really about.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yep, catch the Wall when it's not mogled up too much underneath and has a nice thick layer of fresh snow on it and it's a peach - you just need to know what it was like before the snow as fresh snow over mini-sized ice mogals probably isn't so much 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| abc wrote: |
| Charliegolf wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
In any case, I never understand the “I skied x or y” (read: “I survived x or y”). What does that prove?
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I had a T made saying I survived... when I did it.
It proved I shouldn't have; and that I was lucky to catch a really nice day. I won't be 'challenging' myself that way again. The T shirt shrunk. Coincidentaly, I put on 3 kg too. |
Many of such runs exist for the days when conditions are good. Corbet in Jackson Hole is one such, which also attracts all sort of “survivor hopefuls”. But I’ve been told, by a long time instructor, that I should look to ski it if I happened upon a “really nice day” as it’s actually a very enjoyable run in the right condition. (I’ve not had the right opportunity yet).
So it isn’t about surviving a “famous” run. It’s about enjoying it. And the latter takes patience, and understanding what’s it’s really about. |
A very big difference between the two. If you fall into Corbets you will go for a scary ride, but its so short and the angle shallow out in such a way that you are very unlikely to come to any harm. If you however fall and slide without stopping anywhere on the top section of the wall, especially the Skiers Right of the wall you will probably die!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Idris wrote: |
| you are very unlikely to come to any harm |
I trust you got that piece of valid information from the mountain rescue? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@abc, he is a pisteur so has some authority on such matters.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ster wrote: |
| @abc, he is a pisteur so has some authority on such matters. |
I too, knew a pisteur in Jackson Hole. And he painted a rather different picture.
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@Idris, I've never been to the PS. Do you enter the swiss wall from the skiers right? I've always been of the opinion that, when faced with a drop into a difficult slope, the thing to do is turn immediately into it, rather than track over every other persons tracks in a vain attempt to find somewhere to turn.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To be fair bouncing off the walls in Corbets is a risk if you really feck up the drop in. But as @idris says you've a long way to rag doll down the Wall and you won't stop easily if you don't arrest immediately.
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| abc wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Ed_sec wrote: |
| So do you think he made a bad assessment or just didn't really make one? We'll never know of course, but what's your hunch? |
He’d probably skied it before and didn’t realize how bad it was. You don’t come across bulletproof proof ice on steep slopes very frequently. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have attempted the slope if he’d known it was sheet ice. |
If the Alps is even remotely like the northeast of US (which it is), sheet ice isn’t infrequent either. Even in my relatively limited travel to the Alps, I’ve encounter hard ice off the side of the piste.
Given enough time, piste basher would have tamed all the icy bits on any piste back into corduroy. That’s the part 1-week-a-year punters don’t realize, why a piste is sometimes closed and other times open. Same with avalanche control.
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In the Alps the really steep slopes are typically at the top, where it doesn’t rain frequently. So, as I said, you rarely get sheet ice on steep slopes. The Swiss Wall is at a low ish elevation (circa 2000m) for such a steep run and due to rain followed by a refreeze it was turned from what would have been typical, tough but manageable conditions a couple of days before, to an unskiable ice rink that morning, until the ice melted as the temps warmed up later on. It is never pisted, same as other very steep black runs like Mont Fort in Verbier, but that is at 3300m so doesn’t see rain.
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| abc wrote: |
| ster wrote: |
| @abc, he is a pisteur so has some authority on such matters. |
I too, knew a pisteur in Jackson Hole. And he painted a rather different picture. |
The only hard part of Corbets is the first turn as you have to jump in (and there are a couple of rocks at the top waiting for you if you blow the entry). The rest of the run is not steep
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| joffy69 wrote: |
| @Idris, I've never been to the PS. Do you enter the swiss wall from the skiers right? I've always been of the opinion that, when faced with a drop into a difficult slope, the thing to do is turn immediately into it, rather than track over every other persons tracks in a vain attempt to find somewhere to turn. |
There's only one entry to the Wall - top and centre and starts with a ~10m wide, 10m long section at 75%. From there it does open out a bit and slowly get shallower, more so on the skiiers left side/skiers right staying steeper longer.
The nature if the entrance means it quickly mogales and forms 3 or 4 'lanes' you realistically have to use to drop in - and every person who does pushes a bit more snow, making that entry a slightly longer slide onto the top of the first mogal. And forced into specific entry points/first turn around one of 3 or 4 mogals second/etc trurns end up being in the same places, growing the rest of the mogal field.
Get a food depth if snow to get big mogals then a lean snow/cold period and you have the sort of Wall we had much of last year where any mistake in probably the top 30% of the run will see you just accelerate down the slope until you get bounced too high by one mogal and start spinning - at which point you're rag dolling down, at ever increasing speed.
If you go skier's left after the very top section you can escape further left to a flatter, open (so less 'single line' skied and mogled) off piste area - but in the direct fall line of the huge cornice that can form along the ridge to the left of the entry...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Seeing that, I remember why I rode down in the chairlift. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@BobinCH, That does look blimmin’ steep at the top in summer doesn’t it?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Even very tame black runs can be difficult to walk down in summer
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Back in the day, the Ski Scott Dunn crew in Champèry used to host their client picnic just below those cliffs ... and the ski "guides" used to somersault off them into the party over the guests heads
You can see in Bob's winter pic that entering furthest skier's right lets you traverse to just skier's right of the chair, which is usually less skied, less bumpy and a lot more mellow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Interesting summer photo. It’s natural terrain is hellish, so the moguls in winter are far more than simply the icy creation of skiers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Where is the summer photo?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| Where is the summer photo? |
The one above the snowy one, with the green "snow"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@sugarmoma666, the one with the green grass and no snow or frost
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Origen wrote: |
| Even very tame black runs can be difficult to walk down in summer |
In my early of lift-served mountain biking, I quickly found out even green runs can be rather frightening to ride down.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
| Even very tame black runs can be difficult to walk down in summer |
In my early of lift-served mountain biking, I quickly found out even green runs can be rather frightening to ride down. |
It can be quite severe, can't it.
Put crudely, buttocks behind rear wheel spindle to avoid going over the bars too
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ski3 wrote: |
Put crudely, buttocks behind rear wheel spindle to avoid going over the bars too |
One of my best ever purchases was a seat post dropper for my MTB, downhills are a little less scary now
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@BobinCH, That's really interesting to see it in summer conditions, I don't think I've ever looked at it in that way. The winter picture doesn't really show how big the moguls are either, as you've obviously got to be a long way out to capture the whole run. I've been down it a few times on my board (with my skier daughters), which is horrid, but obviously never in conditions that are sketchy. We didn't bother this past year, as conditions weren't good and, even though it was open when we were there, I didn't think it was a good idea.
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FAQ
