 Poster: A snowHead
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From: https://www.connexionfrance.com/practical/drivers-face-fines-as-france-tyre-ban-comes-into-force/677543
Use of tyres with the M+S label is to be banned in mountainous areas of France from November as a road safety law comes into full effect, with fines for non-compliance.
The Loi Montagne 2, which made the use of either snow chains, auto socks or all season tyres mandatory for winter driving in mountainous areas from November 1, 2021, included a three-year period of tolerance for tyres with the M+S label.
The accepted norm for all-season, or snow, tyres is 3PMSF (3 Peak Mountain Snowflake), which is marked along with a logo depicting three mountains and a snowflake.
When the period of tolerance for these tyres comes to an end on November 1, drivers using them in certain areas could face a fine of €135. However, they will not be subject to a points deduction from their licence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boredsurfin, good. M+S as we all well kno' are crap in snow. No idea why they had a 3 year indemnity 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@boredsurfin, for clarity I think your post should have said "Use of tyres with only the M+S label is to be banned" since many tyres carrying the 3PMSF label also have the M+S label. As previously said M+S label on its own is next to useless on snow and ice.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Alastair Pink, I simply cut and pasted from the link at the top of my post, so shouldn't really edit it...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@boredsurfin, apologies. However I think if the original link you cut and pasted had used the form of words I suggested it would have been a bit more precise. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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They are not banned but you will need chains in the boot, assuming the law is enforced at all this winter.
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@boredsurfin, As others have pointed out, the conclusion is flawed in two ways; 1. It's not the presence of the M+S symbol, but the absence of the 3PMSF one that is important here (some tyres may still have both); 2. You can use any tyres you like as long as you also have suitable chains and use them when appropriate.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| @boredsurfin, As others have pointed out, the conclusion is flawed in two ways; 1. It's not the presence of the M+S symbol, but the absence of the 3PMSF one that is important here (some tyres may still have both); 2. You can use any tyres you like as long as you also have suitable chains and use them when appropriate. |
That certainly does make the thread title took a bit wide of the mark (no pun intended)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Red Leon, Yes. The point about the M+S mark is that it gave no indication whatsoever of cold weather performance. The tyres that came mounted on my Landy had it, but no snowflake, and were spectacularly useless in the winter.
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Can you still get the old M&S type tyre anymore without the three peeks logo?
Old L Rover ones must be well past their use by dates?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Garfield, I believe so, and if you're in cold, sodden, muddy fields with a dusting of slush, they have their place.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| @boredsurfin, for clarity I think your post should have said "Use of tyres with only the M+S label is to be banned" since many tyres carrying the 3PMSF label also have the M+S label. As previously said M+S label on its own is next to useless on snow and ice. |
i have never seen winter tires with only M+S and without the 3Peaks symbol...
are the all weather tires without the 3PMSF ?
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| turms2 wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| @boredsurfin, for clarity I think your post should have said "Use of tyres with only the M+S label is to be banned" since many tyres carrying the 3PMSF label also have the M+S label. As previously said M+S label on its own is next to useless on snow and ice. |
i have never seen winter tires with only M+S and without the 3Peaks symbol...
are the all weather tires without the 3PMSF ? |
If they only have M+S and don't have the 3PMSF symbol then they aren't according to the regulations winter tyres. 
Not sure what you mean by 'all weather' tyres, virtually every all season tyres I've seen has the 3PMSF symbol so meets the winter regulations.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| ... Not sure what you mean by 'all weather' tyres, virtually every all season tyres I've seen has the 3PMSF symbol so meets the winter regulations. |
I'm just thinking that this may be why I've found some people here to be "on a different planet" on these things.
We've been talking at cross purposes: I didn't realize you could even buy M&S tyres without the mountain-capable thing printed on them, or think anyone would want to do such a thing!
In BC the rules have been for many years M&S with the mountain snowflake symbol are legal.
https://www.tranbc.ca/2014/10/01/shift-into-winter-the-inside-scoop-on-winter-tires/
I think the thread title needs an edit.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As per the article this has been in place but with "tolerance" for 3 years and there has been numerous threads on here about it.
It's not hard to comply with - either have appropriate tyres or socks/chains.
It's eminently sensible anyway if you want to ensure you get to your ski holiday.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| turms2 wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| @boredsurfin, for clarity I think your post should have said "Use of tyres with only the M+S label is to be banned" since many tyres carrying the 3PMSF label also have the M+S label. As previously said M+S label on its own is next to useless on snow and ice. |
i have never seen winter tires with only M+S and without the 3Peaks symbol...
are the all weather tires without the 3PMSF ? |
If they only have M+S and don't have the 3PMSF symbol then they aren't according to the regulations winter tyres.
Not sure what you mean by 'all weather' tyres, virtually every all season tyres I've seen has the 3PMSF symbol so meets the winter regulations. |
sorry i meant also the all season, and btw. if the all season have also the 3PMSF , then which tyres have the M+S but not the 3PMSF ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Currently sat over four Dunlop SP444 an two Goodyear Regional RHS. All are marked M+S but there’s no sign of any mountains. I don’t think that’s so unusual for truck tyres.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@altis, no its not but theyr still crap on snow
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@under a new name, currently 26 degrees with wall-to-wall sunshine here so snow is probably unlikely.
Mind you, I do have suitable chains at home.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| turms2 wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| turms2 wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| @boredsurfin, for clarity I think your post should have said "Use of tyres with only the M+S label is to be banned" since many tyres carrying the 3PMSF label also have the M+S label. As previously said M+S label on its own is next to useless on snow and ice. |
i have never seen winter tires with only M+S and without the 3Peaks symbol...
are the all weather tires without the 3PMSF ? |
If they only have M+S and don't have the 3PMSF symbol then they aren't according to the regulations winter tyres.
Not sure what you mean by 'all weather' tyres, virtually every all season tyres I've seen has the 3PMSF symbol so meets the winter regulations. |
sorry i meant also the all season, and btw. if the all season have also the 3PMSF , then which tyres have the M+S but not the 3PMSF ? |
I believe Pirelli Scorpions which are standard equipment on many high end 4X4's are M+S only.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| altis wrote: |
| Currently sat over four Dunlop SP444 an two Goodyear Regional RHS. All are marked M+S but there’s no sign of any mountains. I don’t think that’s so unusual for truck tyres. |
The ones I mentioned that were fitted to my Defender were also marked "light truck".
And as per someone's earlier comment, yes, I'm sure they were long past their 'best-before' date, rock hard rubber, which would certainly have contributed to their terrible winter performance. And TBF, although I say 'terrible' that's more by comparison with the proper winter ones I later fitted, rather than with any other summer tyre.
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@Ozboy, this is from Halfords:
The Scorpion All Terrain Plus is an all season tyre designed for both off-road and on-road use. It also comes with the Three-Peaks Mountain Snowflake symbol which guarantees that the tyre meets the conditions of rigorous testing and is suitable for operation in difficult weather conditions.
Was thinking of getting some for my other half’s car as she wants “winter tyres” (despite nothing resembling winter round here for yonks).
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@andy from embsay, There are a few models of scorpions which is confussing. Scoprion M+S are NOT 3MPSF and I thin these are a common tyre. Scorpion All-Terrain Plus are oindeed 3MPFS. There is also the All-Season SF2 which is 3MPFS and may be more suitable for other car if she are not going off-road.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Cheers - she’s certainly not off-roading but if I can tell her they’re “proper” winters that’s what’s needed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I still have, essentially, no idea whether any of this is legally necessary. It might be absolutely the right thing to do. OK, my car, UK summer tyres, replaced as needed with equivalent to OEM tyres/wheels for the UK market. In the Netherlands, Germany and Austria these tyres are illegal during the winter. In France, AFAIK, all I need to do is carry chains, regardless. Or am I wrong??
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@joffy69, correct
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@andy from embsay, it's not snow and ice that make winter tyres more interesting in the UK it's' the fact that they perform noticeably better sub 7 degrees. Which happens pretty often.
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @andy from embsay, it's not snow and ice that make winter tyres more interesting in the UK it's' the fact that they perform noticeably better sub 7 degrees. Which happens pretty often. |
Completely agree with this. My car drives much better in wintery wet London since I changed to Michelin Cross Climates.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Ozboy, @under a new name - will look at them when it’s time to change, but spending the neck end of a grand on new tyres for navigating the barren wilderness that is the road in and out of Skipton, with an occasional trip over the hill to Bolton Abbey doesn’t seem like sensible economics to me!
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Poster: A snowHead
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And M&S used to be such a well regarded brand, especially on the continent and further afield, but its never been the same since they dropped St Michael brand.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As far as I can see (checking the journal officiel) the Loi Montagne 2 has still not been promulgated; so beyond the common sense of having the correct equipment for the conditions you cannot be fined.
This may change between now and the 1st November but it is 3 winters now the law hasn't been applied. The police can still oblige you to turn around on roads covered by the old legislation - basically any ski resort roads.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ster wrote: |
| And M&S used to be such a well regarded brand, especially on the continent and further afield, but its never been the same since they dropped St Michael brand. |
I came here for the bra comments, this'll have to do..
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Shipjack wrote: |
| ster wrote: |
| And M&S used to be such a well regarded brand, especially on the continent and further afield, but its never been the same since they dropped St Michael brand. |
I came here for the bra comments, this'll have to do.. |
Socks are acceptable
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have Pirelli Scorpion Zeros as OEM tyres on a new defender. They are indeed M&S rated but without the three peaks.
This is a shame as we are driving to Austria this winter via NL and Germany.
Presumably carrying chains will be enough for compliance?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
| @Ozboy, @under a new name - will look at them when it’s time to change, but spending the neck end of a grand on new tyres for navigating the barren wilderness that is the road in and out of Skipton, with an occasional trip over the hill to Bolton Abbey doesn’t seem like sensible economics to me! |
I moved to Cross Climate 2s on my Volvo. Same summer performance (it's a Volvo, I'm not doing track days). Noticeably better the colder it gets, even in the UK mess of a winter. Ridiculous in snow.
I changed all 4 when my two front summer tyres needed changing anyway. Was a bit of a thump in the pocket but worth it.
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I think that’s what we’ll do, @paulhinch, Mrs AfE has an XC40 (FWD) and she won’t need any new tyres for a year or two, but will look at changing all 4 to CC2s when the time comes.
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| Quote: |
Presumably carrying chains will be enough for compliance?
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Best check - there are lots of Snowheads very familiar with the Austrian rules but they might not read this, as it's specifically about France.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Once was, M+S was acceptable in Austria.
No idea if it’s still true.
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| obmij wrote: |
I have Pirelli Scorpion Zeros as OEM tyres on a new defender. They are indeed M&S rated but without the three peaks.
This is a shame as we are driving to Austria this winter via NL and Germany.
Presumably carrying chains will be enough for compliance? |
Quote from Austrian government website. https://www.oesterreich.gv.at/themen/mobilitaet/kfz/10/Seite.063320.html##WR
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| Winter tires for cars and trucks with a maximum permissible total weight of up to 3.5 t must have a tread depth of at least 4 mm for radial tires (the most common tire type) and 5 mm for diagonal tires . This also applies to so-called all-season tires, all-weather tires that are intended for use as snow and mud tires or as snow, mud and ice tires (marked "M + S", "MS" or "M & S"), as well as studded tires. In addition to the marking "M + S", "MS" or "M & S", winter tires can also be marked with an additional snowflake symbol or only with a snowflake symbol. |
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